Pope John Paul II in grave condition (33 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bjerknes
- Start date
Pope John Paul wa a good man.. may he rest in peace..
regarding his successor, it is very likely that he would be an Italian, the closer one is Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, the archbishop of Milan.. it is said that he's a supporter of the Opus Dei cult.. I don't know if that would help him or not..
speaking of a black pope, Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria is mentioned.. he was close to the late Pope.. and electing him would boost Christianity in the developing country.. but it's unlikely..
anyway, we will not know before the conclave is held in the Sistine Chapel at least 10 days from now..
regarding his successor, it is very likely that he would be an Italian, the closer one is Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, the archbishop of Milan.. it is said that he's a supporter of the Opus Dei cult.. I don't know if that would help him or not..
speaking of a black pope, Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria is mentioned.. he was close to the late Pope.. and electing him would boost Christianity in the developing country.. but it's unlikely..
anyway, we will not know before the conclave is held in the Sistine Chapel at least 10 days from now..
Respect, not cencorship. Would you go to a funeral or a memorial and start telling people "I don't care about him but if you do, I don't have a problem with it"? You are free to think whatever you want to but there is such a thing as tact and given what the past page or two have brought of intelligent comments, these high ideals are of course completely gone to waste by now.
I heard it too. I found also a prophecy of a Saint that was born in 1090s that declared that there would be 111 popes after Celestino II (that became pope in 1143) and, after that, the end of the world. John Paul II was the 108th. He (the prophet) even gave nicknames to the 111th. It's amazing how many of those names are appropriate 
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2005/04_Aprile/01/speciale98/brambilla1.shtml
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Cronache/2005/04_Aprile/01/speciale98/brambilla1.shtml
Come sarà il dopo - Wojtyla? A viste umane, per cercare di immaginare la Chiesa del futuro, bisognerebbe innanzitutto scorrere il lungo elenco dei cosiddetti "papabili", e cercare di ragionare sulle loro caratteristiche, sulle loro "tendenze pastorali". Poi, bisognerebbe valutare qual è l'eredità di Giovanni Paolo II, capire insomma "quale Chiesa lascia". Dopo di che, si potrebbe, come dicono gli esperti, "disegnare uno scenario futuro". Ma, se si scegliesse un approccio meno razionalista, si potrebbe cercare una risposta nelle famose "profezie sui papi" di san Malachia, un vescovo irlandese nato nel 1094 (o nel 1095: la data non è certa), morto nel 1148 e canonizzato nel 1190. Costui stilò un elenco di 111 pontefici: tanti quanti ce ne sarebbero stati, a suo dire, da Celestino II, che fu papa dal 1143, sino all'ultimo successore di Pietro. Ciascuno di questi 111 futuri pontefici fu chiamato da san Malachia con un motto in latino.
Va detto subito che questo elenco, secondo la maggior parte degli studiosi, è falso, nel senso che non sarebbe stato san Malachia a redigerlo. Si legge per esempio nell'autorevole Il Grande libro dei santi edito recentemente dalla San Paolo (tre volumi in cui sono riportate le biografie di tutti i santi e beati della Chiesa): "Le Prophetiae Malachiae non sono attribuibili a Malachia: furono infatti scritte durante il conclave del 1590 da un autore sconosciuto, e Arnold Wion le trascrisse nel suo Lignum Vitae". Sta di fatto, comunque, che questo elenco esiste. Wion, che era un monaco benedettino, lo pubblicò nel 1595, sostenendo che fino ad allora quelle profezie erano circolate manoscritte. E non mancano studiosi seri che su quel Lignum vitae, e su quei motti attribuiti a san Malachia, si sono arrovellati per anni trovando qualche motivo di credibilità. Ebbene, in queste "profezie sui papi", Karol Wojtyla è il pontefice numero 108: il terz'ultimo, dunque, della serie.
Fantasticherie? Può darsi. Ma val la pena - prendendo pure il tutto per un semplice divertissement - di riflettere su quei "motti" con cui san Malachia aveva definito ciascun futuro papa. Dunque: il pontefice numero 108 è chiamato De labore solis, ossia "dallo sforzo del sole"; e Wojtyla è il papa che viene dall'Est, cioè da dove il sole si leva. Un collegamento forzato? Forse. Ma ancor più impressionante è il vaticinio riservato al successore di Wojtyla: De gloria olivae, "dalla gloria dell'ulivo". Cioè un papa che viene da un periodo in cui, in quella Roma che è sede della Chiesa universale, era stato al governo, "nella gloria", una forza politica chiamata Ulivo. Sempre restando a metà fra il gioco e la doverosa apertura al mistero: Paolo VI era Flos florum, fiore dei fiori, e nello stemma di papa Montini ci sono tre gigli; Giovanni XXIII, che era stato patriarca di Venezia, la città marinara per eccellenza, era Pastor et nauta; Pio XI, che sfidò senza paura Mussolini, Stalin e Hitler (nel '37 pubblicò l'enciclica Mit brennender Sorge per denunciare il razzismo e l'antisemitismo nazista) era Fides intrepida; Benedetto XV, che fu papa durante (1914 - 1922) i massacri della Grande Guerra e il flagello della "spagnola", era Religio depopulata, religione spopolata. E continuando ad andare a ritroso: Leone XIII, l'ultimo papa del XIX secolo, era Lumen in coelo, una luce nel cielo, e il simbolo della sua casata, quella dei Pecci, era una cometa. Pio IX, il papa del Risorgimento, che dai Savoia subì vessazioni e sequestri, era Crux de cruce, la croce (dunque, la sofferenza) che viene dalla croce: e una grande croce bianca in campo rosso è lo stemma, appunto, dei Savoia.
Coincidenze singolari, come quella - tanto per citare ancora un esempio, ma ce ne sarebbero altri - di Pio VII (1800 - 1823): per lui, il motto di san Malachia era Aquila rapax, l'aquila che rapisce, e il 3 luglio del 1809 Pio VII fu prelevato al Quirinale, arrestato e portato a Parigi ("rapito", insomma) dai soldati francesi di Napoleone. E l'aquila, come tutti sanno, era il simbolo dell'impero napoleonico. Discorsi da salotto, costruiti su "falsi" intepretati come conviene, oppure messaggi inviati nel chiaroscuro della profezia? Vedremo. Intanto, arriverà De gloria olivae, che per san Malachia sarà il penultimo papa. Chiude infatti l'elenco dei 111 Petrus Romanus: un Pietro II, insomma. + scritto nel Lignum vitae: "Nell'ultima persecuzione della Santa Chiesa, risiederà Pietro il Romano che farà pascolare le sue pecore fra le tribolazioni. Passate queste, Roma sarà distrutta e il giudice giudicherà il popolo". Chissà se c'è da tremare, o solo da sorridere.
Try translating this please...
Va detto subito che questo elenco, secondo la maggior parte degli studiosi, è falso, nel senso che non sarebbe stato san Malachia a redigerlo. Si legge per esempio nell'autorevole Il Grande libro dei santi edito recentemente dalla San Paolo (tre volumi in cui sono riportate le biografie di tutti i santi e beati della Chiesa): "Le Prophetiae Malachiae non sono attribuibili a Malachia: furono infatti scritte durante il conclave del 1590 da un autore sconosciuto, e Arnold Wion le trascrisse nel suo Lignum Vitae". Sta di fatto, comunque, che questo elenco esiste. Wion, che era un monaco benedettino, lo pubblicò nel 1595, sostenendo che fino ad allora quelle profezie erano circolate manoscritte. E non mancano studiosi seri che su quel Lignum vitae, e su quei motti attribuiti a san Malachia, si sono arrovellati per anni trovando qualche motivo di credibilità. Ebbene, in queste "profezie sui papi", Karol Wojtyla è il pontefice numero 108: il terz'ultimo, dunque, della serie.
Fantasticherie? Può darsi. Ma val la pena - prendendo pure il tutto per un semplice divertissement - di riflettere su quei "motti" con cui san Malachia aveva definito ciascun futuro papa. Dunque: il pontefice numero 108 è chiamato De labore solis, ossia "dallo sforzo del sole"; e Wojtyla è il papa che viene dall'Est, cioè da dove il sole si leva. Un collegamento forzato? Forse. Ma ancor più impressionante è il vaticinio riservato al successore di Wojtyla: De gloria olivae, "dalla gloria dell'ulivo". Cioè un papa che viene da un periodo in cui, in quella Roma che è sede della Chiesa universale, era stato al governo, "nella gloria", una forza politica chiamata Ulivo. Sempre restando a metà fra il gioco e la doverosa apertura al mistero: Paolo VI era Flos florum, fiore dei fiori, e nello stemma di papa Montini ci sono tre gigli; Giovanni XXIII, che era stato patriarca di Venezia, la città marinara per eccellenza, era Pastor et nauta; Pio XI, che sfidò senza paura Mussolini, Stalin e Hitler (nel '37 pubblicò l'enciclica Mit brennender Sorge per denunciare il razzismo e l'antisemitismo nazista) era Fides intrepida; Benedetto XV, che fu papa durante (1914 - 1922) i massacri della Grande Guerra e il flagello della "spagnola", era Religio depopulata, religione spopolata. E continuando ad andare a ritroso: Leone XIII, l'ultimo papa del XIX secolo, era Lumen in coelo, una luce nel cielo, e il simbolo della sua casata, quella dei Pecci, era una cometa. Pio IX, il papa del Risorgimento, che dai Savoia subì vessazioni e sequestri, era Crux de cruce, la croce (dunque, la sofferenza) che viene dalla croce: e una grande croce bianca in campo rosso è lo stemma, appunto, dei Savoia.
Coincidenze singolari, come quella - tanto per citare ancora un esempio, ma ce ne sarebbero altri - di Pio VII (1800 - 1823): per lui, il motto di san Malachia era Aquila rapax, l'aquila che rapisce, e il 3 luglio del 1809 Pio VII fu prelevato al Quirinale, arrestato e portato a Parigi ("rapito", insomma) dai soldati francesi di Napoleone. E l'aquila, come tutti sanno, era il simbolo dell'impero napoleonico. Discorsi da salotto, costruiti su "falsi" intepretati come conviene, oppure messaggi inviati nel chiaroscuro della profezia? Vedremo. Intanto, arriverà De gloria olivae, che per san Malachia sarà il penultimo papa. Chiude infatti l'elenco dei 111 Petrus Romanus: un Pietro II, insomma. + scritto nel Lignum vitae: "Nell'ultima persecuzione della Santa Chiesa, risiederà Pietro il Romano che farà pascolare le sue pecore fra le tribolazioni. Passate queste, Roma sarà distrutta e il giudice giudicherà il popolo". Chissà se c'è da tremare, o solo da sorridere.
Try translating this please...
Nobody is disrespecting him. You're all taking what comments that have been made far, far out of context. So what if someone says "I'm not bothered" - is that disrespectful? Of course not, its an opinion. Is he just another old man? Yes!
Its all well and good criticising us for lack of tact and respect but when those representing the other side of the argument (not all of them by the way - you know who you are) start belittling our beliefs and classing our opinions as worthless, hell even stating they feel sorry for us well you tell me who's in the wrong!!
Its all well and good criticising us for lack of tact and respect but when those representing the other side of the argument (not all of them by the way - you know who you are) start belittling our beliefs and classing our opinions as worthless, hell even stating they feel sorry for us well you tell me who's in the wrong!!
++ [ originally posted by isha00 ] ++
That's what I think too But all these coincidences makes you think..
That's what I think too
But all these coincidences makes you think..
Again... Where did I say I didnt care... Be interesting to know how many of the deeply offended actually were up at dawn today to attend mass??
Chances are not many... Yet I the supposed uncaring that you make out... Was
There was no disrespect in this thread... A comment that someone doesnt care and a take that he is jus another man... sorry but theres no disrespect there and everyone is entitled to air their view anyway.
If you start a thread about something on a public forum... then you are in essence asking for peoples opinions on that subject... Whether those opinions are ones you agree with has no relevence what so ever
Looking around various forums today... I have seen many threads with those very comments in them and this is the only forum i have seen people get offended by them... Most of them turned those comments into a worthy discussion about the pope and what he has done in his life.
The most offensive posts in this thread have been those saying others opinions are worthless and looking down on people with different views... Not to mention some stuff in the last couple of pages that it is very disrespectful to have in such a thread as this.
Its also interesting that this is hammered as disrespectful... yet over the years there has been a continuous flow of nationalistic, anti-religious, rascist and homophobic comments that generally pass without comment...
Not too mention one member that had a racist banner as their avatar not so long ago without question
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, miserere famulo tuo Pontifici nostro N., et dirige eum secundum tuam clementiam in viam salutis aeternae: ut, te donante, tibi placita cupiat et tota virtute perficiat. Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.
Domine Iesu Christe, Rex gloriae, libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu; libera eas de ore leonis, ne absorbeat eas tartarus, ne cadent in obscurum; sed signifer sanctus Michael repraesentet eas in lucem sanctam, quam olim Abrahae promisisti et semini eius. Amen.
Chances are not many... Yet I the supposed uncaring that you make out... Was
There was no disrespect in this thread... A comment that someone doesnt care and a take that he is jus another man... sorry but theres no disrespect there and everyone is entitled to air their view anyway.
If you start a thread about something on a public forum... then you are in essence asking for peoples opinions on that subject... Whether those opinions are ones you agree with has no relevence what so ever
Looking around various forums today... I have seen many threads with those very comments in them and this is the only forum i have seen people get offended by them... Most of them turned those comments into a worthy discussion about the pope and what he has done in his life.
The most offensive posts in this thread have been those saying others opinions are worthless and looking down on people with different views... Not to mention some stuff in the last couple of pages that it is very disrespectful to have in such a thread as this.
Its also interesting that this is hammered as disrespectful... yet over the years there has been a continuous flow of nationalistic, anti-religious, rascist and homophobic comments that generally pass without comment...
Not too mention one member that had a racist banner as their avatar not so long ago without question
Omnipotens sempiterne Deus, miserere famulo tuo Pontifici nostro N., et dirige eum secundum tuam clementiam in viam salutis aeternae: ut, te donante, tibi placita cupiat et tota virtute perficiat. Per Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.
Domine Iesu Christe, Rex gloriae, libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu; libera eas de ore leonis, ne absorbeat eas tartarus, ne cadent in obscurum; sed signifer sanctus Michael repraesentet eas in lucem sanctam, quam olim Abrahae promisisti et semini eius. Amen.
Well, your opinion on the matter is worthless because if you don't care about the death of the Pope, why are you even posting in this thread? If you don't care about it, why should you have an opinion in the first place? If your opinion is "I don't care," your opinion is worthless in my book at least.
Just refer to the Plato quote Paolo_Montero and you might understand.
Just refer to the Plato quote Paolo_Montero and you might understand.
I don't have much time, so I'll make a summary.
There was an Irish bishop, St. Malachia, that wrote a prophecy on the remaining successors of St. Peter after Pope Celestino II (1143-1144). He wrote 111 of them and he stated that after the last one there would be the end of the world. Each one of the future popes was given a nickname in latin. The journalist say that many of these nicknames really reflect their lives.
Some examples:
- Pope John Paul II was "de labore solis" that means "from the effort of the sun". The sun rises from east and the pope came from eastern Europe.
- The next one will be "de gloria olivae" "of the glory of the olive tree". It means that this pope will reign in a Rome where there has reigned a political side named so. In fact in Italy there is a political party named "Olive tree"
- Paul VI was "flos florum" that means "flower of flowers" and in his coat of arms there were 3 lilies.
- John XXIII, that came from Venice, was "Pastor et nauta", pastor and sailor
- Pio XI (that was Pope during the dictatures of Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin and fought them) was "Fides intrepida" that is "fearless faith"
- Benedetto XV that was pope during the first world war and during the epidemy of the "spanish flu" was "Religio depopulata", "religion depopulated"
- Leone XIII was "lumen in coelo" "Light in the sky", and in his coat of arms there was a comet
- Pio IX was the pope of the Italian renaissance and he endured harassments and kidnappings form the Savoia, the reigning family. His nick was "Crux de cruce" "Cross from the cross" where the first cross symbolizes the suffering and the second is the Savoia's coat of arms.
- Pio IV was "Aquila rapax", "the eagle that abducts". This pope was arrested and taken to Paris (abducted) from the Napoleon army. The symbol of the Napoleon empire was an eagle.
EDIT: I forgot to say that it's not even sure that it was this Malachia that wrote these things, since there were made public only in 1595 by a monk named Wion. But still...
There was an Irish bishop, St. Malachia, that wrote a prophecy on the remaining successors of St. Peter after Pope Celestino II (1143-1144). He wrote 111 of them and he stated that after the last one there would be the end of the world. Each one of the future popes was given a nickname in latin. The journalist say that many of these nicknames really reflect their lives.
Some examples:
- Pope John Paul II was "de labore solis" that means "from the effort of the sun". The sun rises from east and the pope came from eastern Europe.
- The next one will be "de gloria olivae" "of the glory of the olive tree". It means that this pope will reign in a Rome where there has reigned a political side named so. In fact in Italy there is a political party named "Olive tree"
- Paul VI was "flos florum" that means "flower of flowers" and in his coat of arms there were 3 lilies.
- John XXIII, that came from Venice, was "Pastor et nauta", pastor and sailor
- Pio XI (that was Pope during the dictatures of Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin and fought them) was "Fides intrepida" that is "fearless faith"
- Benedetto XV that was pope during the first world war and during the epidemy of the "spanish flu" was "Religio depopulata", "religion depopulated"
- Leone XIII was "lumen in coelo" "Light in the sky", and in his coat of arms there was a comet
- Pio IX was the pope of the Italian renaissance and he endured harassments and kidnappings form the Savoia, the reigning family. His nick was "Crux de cruce" "Cross from the cross" where the first cross symbolizes the suffering and the second is the Savoia's coat of arms.
- Pio IV was "Aquila rapax", "the eagle that abducts". This pope was arrested and taken to Paris (abducted) from the Napoleon army. The symbol of the Napoleon empire was an eagle.
EDIT: I forgot to say that it's not even sure that it was this Malachia that wrote these things, since there were made public only in 1595 by a monk named Wion. But still...
++ [ originally posted by chxta ] ++
Isha, I said "Loads of bullshit" because my Italian is rickety at best. I'll need a translation before I get the gist of what is happening. Please convert the text to English for the generality of the forum, I wouldn't mind French if you feel better with it, or Igbo even best...
Isha, I said "Loads of bullshit" because my Italian is rickety at best. I'll need a translation before I get the gist of what is happening. Please convert the text to English for the generality of the forum, I wouldn't mind French if you feel better with it, or Igbo even best...
I mean, I'd hope to live more than the next 2 popes