Shit, i didn't see the last pages Reb, i swear i didn't. I'm deleting the link
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Pakistan bans Youtube (1 Viewer)
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Yeah, I read it, Alen. I admit it is new for me to know that Mongols did IMAGINE how Prophet Muhammad looked like. I know the girl who wrote that article as she lives in the same city I'm living at now. Well, what I know is that it's not allowed to have such drawings for the Prophet Muhammad. Maybe some people in the history tried to imagine how he looked like, but their intentions were honest as it seems in the pics. They didn't try to decrease the greatness of his personality as the Danish artist did.
Again, we come back to the intentions thing. Now, after the 11th of September, all the intentions of Muslims toward the west and the Western intentions toward Muslims are understood in a very complicted and delicate way. Some people tend to understand each thing as an attack to their culture, and here is the problem. So, it's not about the mere drawing of the prophet. It's about the whole look at the Muslim people as terrorists which make things like this so sensitive.
Welcome.
Essentialy it all comes down to symbols, and how much they mean to people. While religion has lost some of its effect in Europe, and the U.S. (being a Costa Rica, I can say that religion is still pretty strong here in Latinamerica), symbols regardless of their kind will trigger a whole spectrum of responses from people:
Let's say that Gazzetta publishes a cartoon of a gay Del Piero or the whole Juve squad engaged in a gay orgy? For us fans that's a really strong symbol really getting thrashed. Sure, Inter/Milan/Roma fans will find it funny, or at least smirk. Juve fans would rather react in all possible manners, some would ignore the stuff (if it's silly why bother with it?), some would boycott Gazzetta, some would trying to get anyone to censor the stuff they publish, but they'll be some tifosi really wanting to get back at the cartoonist and have revenge. Do they represent the most of the fans? Is their reaction the best?
It's also a matter of taking up personal responsibilities, each person should know better than to insult someone else, or their beliefs. Freedom of speech entitles you to say what you want, about anything you want, as long as knowing when to limit yourself. Each right, each freedom is accompanied by a 'duty' to fulfill, in this case, it is a matter of not using 'freedom of speech' as an excuse to insult people.
This whole Danes vs the Islamic World is like children bickering in the kindergarden. A few pages back someone said the muslim world is about 500 years behind, essentially the whole world is 500 years behind. Ethically speaking the whole species is underdeveloped, compared to our technological achievements.
About the censoring youtube, that sure wasn't the wisest decision at all, but at a government level there a lot more of politics at play than the matter of the cartoons. For some muslim countries, it's yeat another chance to 'show' their moral superiority compared to the putrid western world, the Danes on the other hand, will say that muslims are immature kids that cannot take a joke and that they are overreacting. So Pakistan chose to close the most evident and popular symbol of Western-oriented globalization. Pressure will eventually reopen it, and it's not like there are other alternatives. (veoh, myspace.tv, nsfw, etc)
Bottomline, they are completely different civilizations, the Western civilization is definitely more jaded, more used to have all their heroes/symbols reduced to cartoon stuff. But even so, the Brits react when they make too much fuss out of their Royal Family, the Americans get annoyed when they are mocked over being a lot of ignorant fools, Germans react heavily when someone uses their Nazi history as a plot for mockery. (bottomline's, bottomline) respect each other: a normal human doesn't go around insulting their fellows, for a lot of reasons, mostly because there's not much to gain from that. Respect the other person, their beliefs, race, gender.
Let's say that Gazzetta publishes a cartoon of a gay Del Piero or the whole Juve squad engaged in a gay orgy? For us fans that's a really strong symbol really getting thrashed. Sure, Inter/Milan/Roma fans will find it funny, or at least smirk. Juve fans would rather react in all possible manners, some would ignore the stuff (if it's silly why bother with it?), some would boycott Gazzetta, some would trying to get anyone to censor the stuff they publish, but they'll be some tifosi really wanting to get back at the cartoonist and have revenge. Do they represent the most of the fans? Is their reaction the best?
It's also a matter of taking up personal responsibilities, each person should know better than to insult someone else, or their beliefs. Freedom of speech entitles you to say what you want, about anything you want, as long as knowing when to limit yourself. Each right, each freedom is accompanied by a 'duty' to fulfill, in this case, it is a matter of not using 'freedom of speech' as an excuse to insult people.
This whole Danes vs the Islamic World is like children bickering in the kindergarden. A few pages back someone said the muslim world is about 500 years behind, essentially the whole world is 500 years behind. Ethically speaking the whole species is underdeveloped, compared to our technological achievements.
About the censoring youtube, that sure wasn't the wisest decision at all, but at a government level there a lot more of politics at play than the matter of the cartoons. For some muslim countries, it's yeat another chance to 'show' their moral superiority compared to the putrid western world, the Danes on the other hand, will say that muslims are immature kids that cannot take a joke and that they are overreacting. So Pakistan chose to close the most evident and popular symbol of Western-oriented globalization. Pressure will eventually reopen it, and it's not like there are other alternatives. (veoh, myspace.tv, nsfw, etc)
Bottomline, they are completely different civilizations, the Western civilization is definitely more jaded, more used to have all their heroes/symbols reduced to cartoon stuff. But even so, the Brits react when they make too much fuss out of their Royal Family, the Americans get annoyed when they are mocked over being a lot of ignorant fools, Germans react heavily when someone uses their Nazi history as a plot for mockery. (bottomline's, bottomline) respect each other: a normal human doesn't go around insulting their fellows, for a lot of reasons, mostly because there's not much to gain from that. Respect the other person, their beliefs, race, gender.
Undeserved warning, particulary because Jesus is part of "my religion." What you're doing here is simply imposing your views on us on this forum when it's not warranted. You think all images of figureheads such as Mohammed or Jesus are wrong, so you give out warnings for such mental images even though they're part of a point.
It's pretty funny in this case since I was raised a Catholic.
It's pretty funny in this case since I was raised a Catholic.
Andy, the conditions around us and the sensitivities between Muslims and others all over the world are not a good ground to make cartoons on. In addition, how would you convince people that making more than 10 cartoons about the same topic is just a joke? Again, I don't condone the violence by some Muslims, but in the same time, I think we could avoid all of this just with minor mutual respect to each others' beliefs.
I didn't refer to you, but we get lots of turists here, and if you talk to them they don't like it how they are 'bedevilled' here or treated as complete ignorants. And they aren't really. (At least not those I've met).
Edit: Just wanted to rant a bit about stereotypes, and that essentially everone's facing them.
American's have to take up on being all bible-in-hand rednecks, ignorant about anything that isn't the U.S.
As a Costa Rica, whenever I travel i have to fight stereotypes: ("No, Costa Rica is not an island", "No, Costa Rica is not Puerto Rico", "No, Ricky Martin isn't from my country", "Yes, we do have cars and live in houses and not in huts and we use clothes.", "Yes, I do have e-mail, and know how to use a computer!")
Edit: Just wanted to rant a bit about stereotypes, and that essentially everone's facing them.
American's have to take up on being all bible-in-hand rednecks, ignorant about anything that isn't the U.S.
As a Costa Rica, whenever I travel i have to fight stereotypes: ("No, Costa Rica is not an island", "No, Costa Rica is not Puerto Rico", "No, Ricky Martin isn't from my country", "Yes, we do have cars and live in houses and not in huts and we use clothes.", "Yes, I do have e-mail, and know how to use a computer!")
There is a relentless wave of cartoons/videos/etc that poke fun at the supposed ignorance of the general population in the United States, the disgusting acts of a few priests within the Catholic church, the fact that many Africans and Asians "look the same," and that the Chinese are terrible drivers. Hell, you could find links to jokes such as those that fill up thousands of pages of google links. These jokes label people as the same, all in a negative fashion. So we speak out against these jokes too?
I don't see anybody defending me when somebody uses the fact that I'm an American in an argument. I don't see many people defending the Catholic church against such jokes that equate all Priests to pedophiles. I don't see the Chinese speaking out against cartoons that label them as looking all the same. I mean, if we're going to ban all humor in regards to religions, we will have to do the same with all the other jokes I've mentioned. Why? Because they all can be seen as offensive. And the difference here is that the cartoon is a JOKE, while the other material I posted here are not always jokes.
So what should we do about that problem? The hypocrisy I see in this is just ridiculous.
I don't see anybody defending me when somebody uses the fact that I'm an American in an argument. I don't see many people defending the Catholic church against such jokes that equate all Priests to pedophiles. I don't see the Chinese speaking out against cartoons that label them as looking all the same. I mean, if we're going to ban all humor in regards to religions, we will have to do the same with all the other jokes I've mentioned. Why? Because they all can be seen as offensive. And the difference here is that the cartoon is a JOKE, while the other material I posted here are not always jokes.
So what should we do about that problem? The hypocrisy I see in this is just ridiculous.
Partly we should. It's bad taste, and a cheap attempt at humor. Simply taking some real problematic and twist it as a joke is a symptom of how cynic and jaded we have become. I cannot deny that I've laughed or at least smiled at some cartoon/video/etc of the kind. But I do feel repugned when they cross a line. Mohammed is too big a symbol to target for humor.
Around here they've been some cheap attempts at fun at the mercy of "Miss Dontknowwhere" and her speech at some pageant. Americans I've talked to either, also made fun of her, or where ashamed by the image she was projecting. But it's that as an individual. Partly the same goes for Catholic Priest's 'sexual escapades', most Catholics will say that they're ashamed and feel betrayed by them and are repulsed. But no one would dare make a cartoon about Jesus tellinghis priests to go and have sex with children, as that would trigger a huge reaction from the Vatican and countries with a clear Catholic majority. That's the situation with these cartoons, muslims aren't all terrorists, just as priests aren't all sexual degenerates. They're just unethical minorities, that the media just loves to emphatize on.Sometimes they'll be political extremists, degenerates, violent tifosi, take your pick.
They all are a bad image for anything. And I agree with you that they really should go fuck themselves.
Around here they've been some cheap attempts at fun at the mercy of "Miss Dontknowwhere" and her speech at some pageant. Americans I've talked to either, also made fun of her, or where ashamed by the image she was projecting. But it's that as an individual. Partly the same goes for Catholic Priest's 'sexual escapades', most Catholics will say that they're ashamed and feel betrayed by them and are repulsed. But no one would dare make a cartoon about Jesus tellinghis priests to go and have sex with children, as that would trigger a huge reaction from the Vatican and countries with a clear Catholic majority. That's the situation with these cartoons, muslims aren't all terrorists, just as priests aren't all sexual degenerates. They're just unethical minorities, that the media just loves to emphatize on.Sometimes they'll be political extremists, degenerates, violent tifosi, take your pick.
They all are a bad image for anything. And I agree with you that they really should go fuck themselves.
If they want to be insulting, yeah, let them do it. But, when they offend people and they get pissed and re-act, then you won't hear the end of it. People who just let others insult their God/ prophets piss me off, and I actually admire the fact that Muslims are very sensitive of their religion and I wish Chrisitans were like that as well. And I don't mean violence and shit.
The thing with America and "freedom of speech" is, you acn say whatever offensive shit you want about Catholics or Musliims or whatever, but call someone a nigger and it's a big fucking scene. Freedom of speech, yet you can't read the Bible in school or wear hijabs or say prayers in groups. Don't talk bout the creation theory in science class if you want to keep your job. Freedom of speech my ass. At least be consistent, freedom of speech or not?
you know there is a big difference between making fun of people's affiliation and calling them offensive names. also, being religious is a choice, a choice to be conscientiously ignorant (but that's a discussion for another day) but being of a certain race is not. do you see the difference?
in canada (exclude certain parts of quebec) everyone is allowed to wear a hijab in school, and they can do anything that doesn't harm others during their free time, yes, this includes reading the bibble as well. further more, if you choose so, in ontario you can even send you tax money to fund catholic high schools and send your kid there.
my college has a prayer room.
and as far as creationism is concerned, i am sorry but there is not enough proof found to consider it a "scientific theory" and until such remains the case, it should not be taught in science class. why can't religious people come to the realization that their system is a belief-based one and as such, there are people out there who do not choose to believe in it.
freedom of speech has it's limitations, and until a muslim can prove in a court of law that his/her life has been negatively affected by the cartoons, i'm sorry but it is not libel.
now, i am trying to be as nice as possible here. i didn't offend anyone.
This thread is way to serious, I think you guys are missing the real point:
Pakistan has set a deadly precedent. Now every nation that has been made fun of by another nation will ban Youtube. Every person that has been imitated on Youtube will now stop using Youtube. There will be no more Youtube for anyone. Way to go Pakistan. How will we watch everyday people act like idiots, sameday football highlights and hot Balkan pop stars teach us there is more to singing than singing? Thanks again Pakistan. Maybe you should try being a world leader in something other than Funwrecking.
Pakistan has set a deadly precedent. Now every nation that has been made fun of by another nation will ban Youtube. Every person that has been imitated on Youtube will now stop using Youtube. There will be no more Youtube for anyone. Way to go Pakistan. How will we watch everyday people act like idiots, sameday football highlights and hot Balkan pop stars teach us there is more to singing than singing? Thanks again Pakistan. Maybe you should try being a world leader in something other than Funwrecking.
Sorry man, but I think someone mislead you.
Actually the 1st Amendments protects racists and bigots as well. Which is why America has groups like the KKK, NeoNazis, and others. What it doesn't do is protect racists and bigots from popular opinion. If you run your mouth about niggers, kikes, and towelheads you will generally find yourself in trouble not with the government but with the groups you have insulted.
As for Separation of Church and State, that is a part of the Constitution. If you read our history the colonies were formed by people looking for religious freedom. The United States gives the right to all citizens to practice any religion or no religion. Hence the separation between church and state. We don't pray in public school and we don't teach creation in public school because public schools are an outlet of the government. Though you can pray at school, as many of my muslim teammates did before soccer matches because you have the right to, the school is just not allowed to lead it. Also, We do have private schools where anything is game. So your argument is invalid. In America we have freedom of speech to the max. You can say whatever you want, but like in anything there are consequences for actions.
Actually the 1st Amendments protects racists and bigots as well. Which is why America has groups like the KKK, NeoNazis, and others. What it doesn't do is protect racists and bigots from popular opinion. If you run your mouth about niggers, kikes, and towelheads you will generally find yourself in trouble not with the government but with the groups you have insulted.
As for Separation of Church and State, that is a part of the Constitution. If you read our history the colonies were formed by people looking for religious freedom. The United States gives the right to all citizens to practice any religion or no religion. Hence the separation between church and state. We don't pray in public school and we don't teach creation in public school because public schools are an outlet of the government. Though you can pray at school, as many of my muslim teammates did before soccer matches because you have the right to, the school is just not allowed to lead it. Also, We do have private schools where anything is game. So your argument is invalid. In America we have freedom of speech to the max. You can say whatever you want, but like in anything there are consequences for actions.
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