++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
Pretty much all of the above.
Or maybe none.
The tests, well we won't even have counter-analysis it seems, so I guess everybody loses (Armstrong for not being able to defend himself and his detractors for being unable to use this as evidence).
The consequences...I don't see how they would be able to implement a retroactive punishment but maybe you mean consequences for cyclism in general?
Acted out, well maybe. L'Équipe can be a bit of a rag sometimes.
His guilt? Yes, that's pretty much what I want to know from you, or at least your opinion on it. Is Armstrong this cancer survivor that became invincible thanks to hard work and incredible determination or is he is a flaming liar?
I want to know why he threatened that Italian cyclist who used to run for US Postal, was caught and took his suspension on the chin unlike so many other "unaware" culprits.
I want to know if he was indeed the Vito Corleone of the peloton, imposing an unbreakable law of silence over his subjects.
I'd like to know if this once great sport has become a gigantic Dumpster, where the all-mighty Dr Strangeloves throw their poison at their compliant guinea pigs while the deluded masses applaud and shout "encore!".
Ok, I'll answer some of that now (havent got time at mo)
In a slightly different order...
I'd like to know if this once great sport has become a gigantic Dumpster, where the all-mighty Dr Strangeloves throw their poison at their compliant guinea pigs while the deluded masses applaud and shout "encore!".
It allways amazes me that a sport who actually tests its athletes for drugs, that actually works harder than anyone else to advance dope testing procedures for the benefit of all sports at the sacrifice of only its own good name is tarnished by this brush just because its doing something and catches people...
No other sport even comes close to what cycling are doing against sports doping...
Cyclists are the most tested athletes in the world... They are jus about the only sportsman to have to carry a health passport at all times....
The average cyclist sits around 50 drug tests a year plus regular full health examinations....
Your average football player gets one test a year....
All the important tests... the first epo test, the improved epo test, the epo blood test, the new human growth hormone test, the new blood manipulation tests , all the latest tests for synthetic aids etc etc were all developed by and with the uci....
No other sport has made such an effort and continues todo so...
Why is it that football still uses the original urine epo test that cycling dropped years ago ???
Why is that even that test is only used prior to certain major events... not as the norm...
Why is it that athletics, tennis etc do not use these proven and unquestionable tests ???
Its straight forward... They are all scared todo so for they all know full well that one helluva lot of people would get caught and they themselves would then be subject to these same questions you ask of cycling...
Not too mention the amount of money involved in football.... Its far too bigger risk....
If you think the majority of sports arent the same , then you my friend are dellusional...
Cycling should be commended for the stance it has taken not condemned..
You also have to look at the facts... cycling is now 7 years on from 98 and all its scandals... pretty much clean, the difference is clear for all to see....
Jus look to even the most basic of things... such as the haematocrit test...
In the 98 tour the average level across the entire peloton was 49.5 (limit of 50), after these years and the development of drug testing within cycling the average this year was 42.7.... That tells the story of the effect the uci's actions have had in itself...
Of course there are still and allways will be those that cheat and new drugs, and new ways around the tests... But cycling are doing their best... no other sport can say the same.....
Commended , not condemned !!
Proud, not Ashamed !!
I want to know why he threatened that Italian cyclist who used to run for US Postal, was caught and took his suspension on the chin unlike so many other "unaware" culprits.
Why did he threaten Pippo Simeoni... Who the hell knows... Simeoni didnt even accuse armstrong of anything...
All he did was testify that Dr Ferrari offered to supply him with EPO... He didnt make a direct accusation to lance...
Why does this affect lance ? Cause as we all know the well known Dr of doping , michelle ferrari has a ceratin lance armstrong as his most famous client....
Why did he threaten him... Ive no idea... my only thoughts are that he felt this was all getting too close to him... To me his actions only made him look more guilty though...
But then if your asking that... why did lance armstrong ostricise christophe bassons from the peloton in the 99 tour... effectively destroying bassons career... ???
For those that doint know... Bassons was the most outspoken member of the pro peloton against doping... He was also the only rider accepted by all as being 100% clean... Why did lance destroy him if hes clean too ???
The consequences...I don't see how they would be able to implement a retroactive punishment but maybe you mean consequences for cyclism in general?
Retro-active testing has actually been within the UCI's policy for many years... They have samples from all major races since 98... All of which can be pulled out and tested on development of new testing procedures....
Those results would then be treated by their disciplinary panel jus as it is if it was at the time...
There are certain factors surrounding these tests though... I'll come back to that later
Consequences for cycling in general... I think i covered that earlier
I want to know if he was indeed the Vito Corleone of the peloton, imposing an unbreakable law of silence over his subjects.
To a certain degree... yes... He had a certain power within the peloton and used it to his own advantage or his own means...
Though he was never the 'patron' he liked to think he was....
he was never like the last true 'patron'... Bernard Hinault
Lance didnt really even shape up to what riis was to the group...
Hinault (imo the greatest ever) was not a nice man, but he had the respect of everyone and it was also known that what he said and done wasnt for his own benefit... it was for the good of cycling and its rders... A true spokesman for the riders and the sport... not jus a voice for his own propaganda and bullying like lance
Acted out, well maybe. L'Équipe can be a bit of a rag sometimes.
It is a rag... But its also a decent paper that actually knows what investigative journalism is...
Firstly people have to remeber that these tests do not come from l'equipe... They were asked for by WADA
People like to say that there is a witch hunt led by l'equipe... Really... Even though everything they have written has grounds for investigation (as shown by subsequent investigations by french and italian sporting associations and legal services over the years on the back of l'equipes articles)
They may not do everything in the most ethical way... but it aint a witch hunt... its good investigation....
The only real issue with l'equipe here is that they have only named armstrong when they have reporterd six riders with positives from these tests... Surely it is wrong to post one and not the others...
Should they have written the article rather than jus passing their findings onto the relevant bodies...??
A tough one... Even if the bodies agree guilt, there are questions as to whether thay can be acted on... As such, if not printed... And they were unable to sanction him if guilty... then the fans would be hoodwinked into forever believing the lies of a cheat...
Hard question... with arguments both ways...
He argues he cant defend himself... Why not... ?? He has access too a much larger press coverage than l'equipe... He has more powerful supporters at his call...
As far as we are aware there are still 'b' samples available for testing.... Have the testing re done by another independant lab...
The tests, well we won't even have counter-analysis it seems, so I guess everybody loses (Armstrong for not being able to defend himself and his detractors for being unable to use this as evidence).
I havent got time togo into what these tests were... But the info is readily available on most cycling websites
There are lots of issues with the tests... But none of them have anything to do with the results they give... These are seen as the most advanced and most accurate tests sport has ever come up with... They are top of the tree... irrefutable...
The problems with them...
Firstly... they are yet to be made the normal test procedure of the uci... Though they have been aknoledged and extensively tested and accepted they are yet to put in place...
As such there is a question as to whether thay could be acted upon before being part of the procedure... Eg. even if correct, these exact same tests would have to be done again...
Is there enough samples left.... Unlikely, as far as im aware there is some b-test samples left but i doubt enough to be retested by the lab and to allow a defence team test as well...
These tests were only done on b - test samples... The a samples were used up previously... As such, A guilty finding cannot be reached... vis a vis no punishment, guilty or not
There are questions as to the validity of retroactive testing... It is not accepted by all sporting federations and the european courts...
So even if its within the ucis mandate... A court case would probably throw it out....
etc etc etc
His guilt? Yes, that's pretty much what I want to know from you, or at least your opinion on it. Is Armstrong this cancer survivor that became invincible thanks to hard work and incredible determination or is he is a flaming liar?
IMO... He's as guilty as they come... Ive said i suspected him on the back of his performance in the 98 vuelta espana... and things have only grown more and more suspicious ever since
The problem is that besides these latest tests (which though inadmissable are irrefutable) none of the evidence against him over the years clearly shows him to be guilty.... You can have mountains of 'evidence' that points to his taking, but unless hes caught with it or actually fails a test he will allways get away with it...
Whether you look at the scientific... These latest tests, his reported 49.9 Hm reading at the tour, his un natural power development stats...
Year.....Watts...Weight(kg).......Watts/kg
1994.....381........76.2...................5
1999.....415........71.6...................5.79
2000.....430........~72....................5.97
2001.....445........~72....................6.18
etc etc
Or you look at why so many sporting organisations, legal services, colleagues, experts , journalists are all after him... etc etc
Or his associations with known and convicted dope doctors...
Or his treatment of outspoken people on an issue he should in his position be embracing... etc etc
Or you look to his whole team performance... Can anyone explain to me how a semi decent roadman sprinter like big george can tow the peloton up the most dificult mountains at break neck speeds.... Dropping not only the best climbers but all the race favourites as well... Not too mention those same roadmen pulling off stunning results in time trials....How do all these riders perform at unbelievable levels over any terrain ???
Why is it the likes of heras, landis, hamilton (oh sorry, hes a proven doper) , livingstone etc etc have done amazing things for postal but were a shadow of that after they left.... Does that really not raise suspicion ???
Not one rider who has left postal has performed to any where near that same level again... why is that ???
For all these things... every minute detail... every bit of damning evidence, none of it is enough to catch him...
Are the likes of Emma o'reilly ,Ron Jongen or the numerous other colleagues that have spoken out against him all liars ??
Every single one of them ??
Is Greg LeMond... A true champion with nothing to gain and everything to lose (he lost his bike companies contract with trek on the back of his words about lance) .... Is he a liar too ???
Theres too many incidents, too many people, too many questioning stats...
He imo is as dirty as it gets... and with his situation... worse than every one of those that ever lied before him put togeather....
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