Nick Against the World (114 Viewers)

[Kaiser Franco]

Im with Nick regarding the distinction to be made between being a jerk and being a bigot. I doubt Don Bes ever took the comments about Albanian immigrants or whatever as anything else than friendly teasing, though I may be wrong. For the record, my best friend here is English. He calls me every name in the book, from pizza-faced surrender monkey to lady boy woperino. I return the compliment with the likes of red-faced roastbeef muncher and bad teethed limey bastard. It’s all good though. Jaecole's comments however were dead serious, and even if they were directed at the Italians in "Jae’s world", they had the effect of diminishing an entire race, as indeed did my reply to him.


Im with Paul regarding the alleged pervasive anti-Americanism on this forum. A few people - mostly clueless teenagers jumping on the bandwagon - make some cheap shots. Others (Seven) "get political" and should stop listening to the Belgian socialpigs. Finally you have those (Paul) who opt for constructive criticism and make valid points that remain unadressed or are being lumped together with the rest and labelled as anti-American. I remember having been called that myself when I tried to jump into a discussion about the Presidential election last year. I remember Andy telling me it was none of my business. Well guess what : it is my business too. What affects you affects me as well, and vice versa. I will never understand Andy’s blind nationalism and unability to indulge into self-criticism. One thing is defending your country against prejudice and unwarranted attacks, another is being unable to listen and acknowledge your faults when needed, and by doing the latter you only foster the former. If someone insults my country and my people, then of course I will react badly. But if he is trying to have a serious discussion with me about, say, post WW2 Christian Democracy in Italy, I will be more than glad to oblige. I will never call him anti-Italian for what he has to say. All he must make sure of is to come up with good arguments, because in me he will find someone more than capable of addressing them and, if necessary, debunking them.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[flieeeekke]

++ [ originally posted by Emma ] ++
Times like this help us all to realise how futile internet forums are. And seperates the no-lifers from the lifers.

Sergio, Jae and Pado all obviously have a real life to attend to. I'll be sticking around with Nick and co because we are pathetically sad bastards who have nothing else to do.

im only staying because i dont have anything better to do while at work

 

[flieeeekke]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


WOW Fli, you really caught me there.

No offense but I'm pretty sure you're taking up the wrong profession....lawyers are supposed to be able to examine a situation, form a reasonable opinion by deducing the facts. You seem to get confused a lot, unfortunately. I would think it would be quite simple to understand the difference between TALKING FOOTBALL and TALKING about RACE and NATIONALITY, but I suppose not in your unfortunate case. Hopefully you understand me now, even after the ump-teenth million time I have explained myself.

Now go crawl back to your shanty.

go to war.

 

[Chxta]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
Im with Nick regarding the distinction to be made between being a jerk and being a bigot. I doubt Don Bes ever took the comments about Albanian immigrants or whatever as anything else than friendly teasing, though I may be wrong. For the record, my best friend here is English. He calls me every name in the book, from pizza-faced surrender monkey to lady boy woperino. I return the compliment with the likes of red-faced roastbeef muncher and bad teethed limey bastard. It’s all good though. Jaecole's comments however were dead serious, and even if they were directed at the Italians in "Jae’s world", they had the effect of diminishing an entire race, as indeed did my reply to him.


Im with Paul regarding the alleged pervasive anti-Americanism on this forum. A few people - mostly clueless teenagers jumping on the bandwagon - make some cheap shots. Others (Seven) "get political" and should stop listening to the Belgian socialpigs. Finally you have those (Paul) who opt for constructive criticism and make valid points that remain unadressed or are being lumped together with the rest and labelled as anti-American. I remember having been called that myself when I tried to jump into a discussion about the Presidential election last year. I remember Andy telling me it was none of my business. Well guess what : it is my business too. What affects you affects me as well, and vice versa. I will never understand Andy’s blind nationalism and unability to indulge into self-criticism. One thing is defending your country against prejudice and unwarranted attacks, another is being unable to listen and acknowledge your faults when needed, and by doing the latter you only foster the former. If someone insults my country and my people, then of course I will react badly. But if he is trying to have a serious discussion with me about, say, post WW2 Christian Democracy in Italy, I will be more than glad to oblige. I will never call him anti-Italian for what he has to say. All he must make sure of is to come up with good arguments, because in me he will find someone more than capable of addressing them and, if necessary, debunking them.

So well, beautifully and truly said!

 

[Seven]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++


Im with Paul regarding the alleged pervasive anti-Americanism on this forum. A few people - mostly clueless teenagers jumping on the bandwagon - make some cheap shots. Others (Seven) "get political" and should stop listening to the Belgian socialpigs.

Well, at least I'm not a clueless teenager .

 

[Dan]

ah come on Seven. Stop reading those Micheal Moore books. Its great that you know the stuff, but you are effectively regurgitating what his thoughts are. You dont have to take on his thoughts and opinions just to seem intelligent Seven, I think its pretty obvious myself you are smarter than the normal teenager.

Anyway, Kaiser Franco said it well. The bandwagon part was absolutely beautiful, its what ive been saying for ages now in the real world. In Germany (and alot of other places) among young people, its popular now to against America- without even knowing why. Eventually, everyone jumps on the fick america bandwagon, which is sad enough as most of them dont even know what mistakes America has made. What I also think is ridiculous is how people overly complain so much about America- sure it isnt perfect, but It beats the shit out of having China or Russia as a world super power.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Shadowfax ] ++


So when exactly have i done these things....

I never said you did say those things, however many of your compatriots have. Not to mention a poster who is named after one of our most recent stoppers who decided to make attacks against Christianity and the death of the Pope. Sometimes I wonder what is really going on here.

 

[Slagathor]

++ [ originally posted by Dan ] ++
America- sure it isnt perfect, but It beats the shit out of having China or Russia as a world super power.

I'll say.

 

[The Pado]

Libero, to make you happy, I will address one of Paul's unaddressed "valid" points. Paul claims that the cheap bastard Americans contributed "only" 350 Million Dollars to Tsunami relief. What Paul did not include is that this "paltry" figure is the amount contributed from U.S. government coffers. Individual American contributions (and I do not have exact figures) probably triple that amount. Why do I say that? Because I know that the united efforts of Raleigh-based (my city) churches collected 1.8 Million dollars for Tsunami victims, in addition to the 1.2 Million dollars raised in the parking lots of shopping centers and the charity car washes across Raleigh over the month of January 2005. So, if a little place like Raleigh (population near 1 Million) can raise an even 3 Million dollars, then I can project that figure to the hundreds of thousands of other communites in the USA and guess that Americans gave more than anybody else.

So what is the predictable juventuz.com response? Damn igornant pigs should have contributed the most because they have so much . . . and they probably caused the Tsunami to get the oil.

Right.

See, in America, people call me "Anti-American", so I just love to finally have the opportunity to defend the object of my anger and distrust.

 

[gray]

++ [ originally posted by Padovano ] ++
So, if a little place like Raleigh (population near 1 Million) can raise an even 3 Million dollars, then I can project that figure to the hundreds of thousands of other communites in the USA and guess that Americans gave more than anybody else.

I'm not here to defame the US (personally I couldn't care less about the ongoing nationalistic mud-slinging), but I couldn't help but think that that's a pretty big assumption to make, Pado.

It seems likely to me that because Raleigh is a small community, the sense of _______ (I don't have a word for it) would be greater, and people would generally be more willing to donate money than the people of a larger, busier metropol..i?

Have you ever heard of the bystander effect?

 

[The Pado]

Libero, since I love you so much, I would like to discuss Christian Democracy in post WWII Italy without insulting your culture. The Christian Democrats have much to answer for their contribution to the Sack of Palermo. Their culture of silence which so conveniently looked the other way while the Mafia wormed its way into every facet of Sicilian government, society, and culture has to be addressed. Are there any Italians demanding answers or has this issue already been put to bed? Did the Christian Democrats ever offer an apology or explanation for their culture of silence while the dead bodies piled so high in the streets of Sicilia?

The Communists wanted to meet Cosa Nostra head-on while the National govenment paid lip service and did everything to NOT break the mafia, until the death of General Della Chiesa. That is when things finally changed in Sicily. How have the CD's reconciled their criminal past?

 

[The Pado]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++

I'm not here to defame the US (personally I couldn't care less about the ongoing nationalistic mud-slinging), but I couldn't help but think that that's a pretty big assumption to make, Pado.

It seems likely to me that because Raleigh is a small community, the sense of _______ (I don't have a word for it) would be greater, and people would generally be more willing to donate money than the people of a larger, busier metropol..i?

Have you ever heard of the bystander effect?

No way, gray. I know there is no way for you to know this, but 80% of Raleigh's population is made up of relocated Northerners (like myself). Out of One Million people, 600,000 have lived in Raleigh less than 20 years and 300,000 have lived here less than 10 years. So, we don't have the great sense of Community that one might think. The truth is that Americans are a generous people. Every time there is a tragedy I am amazed at the level of giving. Look at what New Yorkers (big ass city) gave to families of victims of the WTC attack.

 

[gray]

Point taken; you know infinitely more about Raleigh than myself.

I don't quite buy the WTC argument though, because that's a totally different thing to something that happened on the other side of the world. In fact the comparisons between the amount of money given to the tsunami victims compared to WTC victims could be used against the American people, considering the respective number of people directly affected by both tragedies.

Anyway I'm really not here to question the generosity of the American people, I just wasn't sure about your 'projections'. Here's some interesting reading btw:

http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/bystander_effect.htm

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
Im with Paul regarding the alleged pervasive anti-Americanism on this forum. A few people - mostly clueless teenagers jumping on the bandwagon - make some cheap shots. Others (Seven) "get political" and should stop listening to the Belgian socialpigs. Finally you have those (Paul) who opt for constructive criticism and make valid points that remain unadressed or are being lumped together with the rest and labelled as anti-American. I remember having been called that myself when I tried to jump into a discussion about the Presidential election last year. I remember Andy telling me it was none of my business. Well guess what : it is my business too. What affects you affects me as well, and vice versa. I will never understand Andy’s blind nationalism and unability to indulge into self-criticism. One thing is defending your country against prejudice and unwarranted attacks, another is being unable to listen and acknowledge your faults when needed, and by doing the latter you only foster the former. If someone insults my country and my people, then of course I will react badly. But if he is trying to have a serious discussion with me about, say, post WW2 Christian Democracy in Italy, I will be more than glad to oblige. I will never call him anti-Italian for what he has to say. All he must make sure of is to come up with good arguments, because in me he will find someone more than capable of addressing them and, if necessary, debunking them.

Hold up here Libero. I have acknowledged our own faults in the past, from decisions such as not giving aid quickly enough to the Balken states to the current situation in Iraq. I indeed have accepted those mistakes. I have also acknowledged that some of our choices in replacements for foreign governments has been poor in the past, even though nobody would have predicted what sort of a monster Saddam turned into. I have no problem admitting those, however I'm not going to admit to stretched truths, imbecilic generalizations about our government, and people regurgitating the same old nonsense we always hear because they are so adept at playing "Monday morning Capello." The latter we have seen with Seven in almost every post he makes. You might call it blind nationalism, although I do acknowledge most of our faults, however I'm not going to concede decisions I think were the right choice at the time just because that is what you lot want to hear. You can call it whatever you want, however I'm not budging on that issue.

Every human being wants what's in their best interest, not only Americans. Just because one decision might not go you're way doesn't mean it was completely the wrong decision...chances are if you would have profited from the same action, you would have went through it yourself. That is what people fail to admit around here.

As for my comments on the Presidential Election last year, I think you're misunderstanding what I meant by them. When I made the comment "it's none of your business" I was referring to how we Americans do not need foreign voices telling us who to vote for or what not....I think we can make a decision on our own. We know the European left wing beliefs, we know you didn't like our former Bush Administration, and we know you want the US to adhere to you're best interests. Well I'm sorry but not everybody can get what they want, especially in a Presidential election. Every voter must adhere to their own beliefs and opinions, and vote accordingly. We do not need biased foreign help that may or may not be in our best interest. We also know you really couldn't give a damn about the issues within our own borders, and in reality that is the most important issue set before our government. That's all I meant by the comment Libero. Don't get me wrong, of course you are entitiled to your own opinions, and have a voice, however please don't "vote for us" all the time and demand we adhere to your interests.

 

[The Pado]

Bystander effect? Sounds logical.

Once a guy collapsed in court, obviously having a seizure, and only one person stepped in to help. The law enforcement officers present did nothing, the Judge continued calling cases, I froze to the spot, and a hundred people in the gallery craned their necks to gawk. But one lawyer stepped in to assist. ONLY ONE.


Gray, you really cannot compare any tragedy to the Tsunami based on the number of people effected. The Tsunami is light years beyond anything that has happened, except maybe the Second Ice Age. :cheesy:

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Padovano ] ++
Libero, to make you happy, I will address one of Paul's unaddressed "valid" points. Paul claims that the cheap bastard Americans contributed "only" 350 Million Dollars to Tsunami relief. What Paul did not include is that this "paltry" figure is the amount contributed from U.S. government coffers. Individual American contributions (and I do not have exact figures) probably triple that amount. Why do I say that? Because I know that the united efforts of Raleigh-based (my city) churches collected 1.8 Million dollars for Tsunami victims, in addition to the 1.2 Million dollars raised in the parking lots of shopping centers and the charity car washes across Raleigh over the month of January 2005. So, if a little place like Raleigh (population near 1 Million) can raise an even 3 Million dollars, then I can project that figure to the hundreds of thousands of other communites in the USA and guess that Americans gave more than anybody else.

So what is the predictable juventuz.com response? Damn igornant pigs should have contributed the most because they have so much . . . and they probably caused the Tsunami to get the oil.

Right.

See, in America, people call me "Anti-American", so I just love to finally have the opportunity to defend the object of my anger and distrust.

Great post Pado. I wanted to find those exact numbers as well.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by gray ] ++
Point taken; you know infinitely more about Raleigh than myself.

I don't quite buy the WTC argument though, because that's a totally different thing to something that happened on the other side of the world. In fact the comparisons between the amount of money given to the tsunami victims compared to WTC victims could be used against the American people, considering the respective number of people directly affected by both tragedies.

I'm sorry Gray, however people of a specific country will always be more quick to help out their own rather than somebody else. Members of a family will always help out their own kind, while not be so generous helping others. To use the WTC argument against us is quite stupid; everybody will help their own kind before anybody else. That's human nature.

 

[Acies]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


they are so adept at playing "Monday morning Capello." The latter we have seen with Seven in almost every post he makes.

bah, it's only logical to play monday morning Capello.

 

[Slagathor]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++
I'm sorry Gray, however people of a specific country will always be more quick to help out their own rather than somebody else. Members of a family will always help out their own kind, while not be so generous helping others. To use the WTC argument against us is quite stupid; everybody will help their own kind before anybody else. That's human nature.

The thing is that the USA is the most powerful nation on the planet in this point of time. By doing what is natural (taking care of own interests), it is inevitable that a force of that size would act conflictingly to the interests of other nations, who also seek to protect their own first. As a result; a certain degree of anti-american sentiments is inevitable.

What needs to be absolutely clear, however, is that every country suffers anti-sentiments from other nations. How badly you suffer it is directly related to the power of your nation. That doesn't mean, however, that the largest nation is the only nation affected by this phenomenon.

And at either rate: these sentiments of hatred concern political moves by countries. The point where an individual crosses the line from hating politics to hating (and generalising) people is the point where logic is ends and absurdity takes over. Compare it to switching dimensions. There is only one way to deal with this absurdity that stands directly opposite logic and reason:

ignore it!

 

[Zlatan]

Bah, shut up you pot smoking, prostitute visiting Dutchie!