Nick Against the World (62 Viewers)

ßöмßäяðîëя · Apr 7, 2005

Who's up there?

Cougar and merlin, Maverick and Goose.

Great, maverick and Goose.

SCHHWWHH--Ghostrider, pair of bogeys spotted, 12 o'clock low, 30 miles. SCHWWEEHH

Looks like a single Maverick.

Goose, you see a trailer?

Nah, just looks like a single.

Copy, Cougar, you hook 'em.

Roger, and I'll clean em and fry em......

I could go on for hours.

Respaul · Apr 7, 2005

Firstly Libero,

I may not have made it very clear but that post was aimed at the picture and people using that picture to do down our fans.. It was not aimed at you.
All over the news and internet, papers etc i am seeing people using that picture to slag us off... Those people do not know what happened n tuesday.. they dont know the facts... They have no fvcking clue yet they use it against us.. Its fvcking pissing me off... Sorry if you took that as being to you but it wasnt it was to the ignorant few using it in the wrong way....

Whilst i personally dont agree with your view about the gestures made.. I fully respect it and understand it and as such do not question it.

I have at no point so far given my view on what happened the other night... I have not stated my position properly on the backs turned salute... I have allready said there is something that as far as i know has not been mentioned here that was absolutely fvcking disgusting and ive said some things that happened , I have not given my views

I covered that above

I will give my views on this later this evening, then you pick at what i say as much as you want.. as i said im not questioning your feelings.. we all have our own on this matter

As i said earlier.. I was talking purely about those spinning what supposedly happened through that picture against us... Am i an authority on what happened tuesday night... More than most .. Yes i am, anyone that wasnt there cannot tell me what happened ,they can give an opinion but not as so many people are today trying to tell me lies of what didnt really happen

Your right im not... well done

Yes several... and ive spoken personally to many more that were present at heysel.

Im not trying to tell you how to feel.. ive never forced my opinion on you
I have relatives that have lived in turin for over 30 years... I lived in turin for a large part of my childhood... Not to mention several years when i was older and i now live and work in turin on a part time basis... Some of my closest friends in this world live in turin and milan and have done for generations... So dont you fvcking dare say i have no right to speak my mind on this subject

Anyway... as i said that innitial post was not aimed at you... i do not question your rights or belittle your opinions...

I will give my views on the day later (to which you can say what you like) but i hope this little misunderstanding is finnished

Respaul · Apr 7, 2005

Andy...

THE row over whether Barcelona manager Frank Rijkaard spoke to referee Anders Frisk during February's Champions League match against Chelsea has taken a new twist with a report saying the Dutchman had made several efforts to speak to the official.

Rijkaard has maintained he merely shook Frisk's hand at halftime at the Nou Camp, and European football's governing body (UEFA) initially insisted there was nothing to investigate.

But a report from venue director Pascal Fratellia quoted in the London Evening Standard paints a different picture.

According to Fratellia's report, Rijkaard made several attempts to speak to Frisk during the break.

Rijkaard has maintained he was simply welcoming him to the club.

While the report says that indeed was the first contact between the duo at the break, it added that Rijkaard had pursued Frisk up the stairs and confronted him again in a reception area outside the referee's dressing room.

Fratellia's report, compiled after a post-match interview, with Frisk said: "Frisk told us that he said to Rijkaard, 'It is not the moment to speak about match situations' and told him when he was in front of his (the referee's) dressing room to go back to his (Barcelona's) dressing room."

At the time, Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho was furious at what he thought was an improper attempt to influence the Swedish official, and he revealed his frustration both during and after the game.

Chelsea's assistant manager Steve Clarke witnessed the entire exchange apart from the period when Rijkaard passed out of view beyond the glass doors.

When he returned, Clarke incorrectly assumed the Barcelona coach had been in the referee's dressing room, passing on the information to Mourinho and leading to a public war of words between Chelsea and UEFA with the club effectively accused of telling lies.

Chelsea were found guilty of bringing the game into disrepute after a UEFA spokesman said they had made "false comments" and Mourinho was handed a two-match touchline ban.

puts a very different spin on things in my view

Bjerknes · Apr 7, 2005

Hmm, well maybe so, however Rijkaard's attempts at speaking with Frisk were obviously turned down. I think that's a bit different than actually having a two-way conversation with the referee, something Mourinho was trying to convey with his comments.

And it does seem supicious having a manager trying to seek down the referee only to "welcome him to the club." Could you imagine a coach, during halftime, hunt down a ref only to welcome him? Sounds a bit humorous..

Respaul · Apr 7, 2005

We know that now, But if you saw them walking and talking but couldnt actually hear what was said... Im pretty sure you would have come to the same conclusion... 99% of people would have anyway

Personally, I would say somewhat more than suspicious

The Pado · Apr 7, 2005

If this happened in Italy, we could hundreds of conspiracy theories. Everyone from Moggi to the Mafia could have been in the referee's dressing room. In fact, I bet that, despite the fact it was Barcelona vs. Chelsea, the coach was influencing Frisk in favor of Juve. Hahahaha

Respaul · Apr 7, 2005

Of course he was... No one can accuse Moggi of not thinking ahead

IncuboRossonero · Apr 7, 2005

Nah we don't need to make those assumptions or resort to that Kev. we have the Chievo match which gives us far more credible evidence to fuel the conspiracy theorists :cheesy:

Respaul · Apr 7, 2005

Ive been meaning to write about tuesday night all evening... I had it all marked out in my mind what i wanted to say... But looking at the emotion of this time... the fact it sseems nigh on impossible to discuss without it turning into arguments. I no longer see the point in writing what i really had to say and a full account of what happened... So instead I will jus make few points and ask a couple of questions...

In my view since the day of this draw I have felt these two meetings with Liverpool FC could well turn into the most important european nights of our history for a very long time...
Either as a point when finally some kind of effort be made to lay at least some ghosts to rest or, God forbid, to see irrevocable damage done to our club and possibbly the whole of Italian football.

One of the worst things for me about the time since Heysel is the complete lack of closure... The way this tragic day has seemingly been wiped from history.
Liverpool were brought to book for their crimes at the time and the whole of English football was handed a punishment it has never recovered from... Yet in reality, even with the sentance etc until this past tuesday, 20 years after the event,Liverpool have never offered a public apology.

Juventus have shoved it under the carpet to be forgotten... They have shown No compassion what so ever... Not even seeing fit to have a plaque remembering our dead at the stadium... The behaviour of Juventus has been nothing short of disgraceful.

UEFA... What can we say about them... Nothing, Why ... Because that is what they have done.. Sweet FA.
The governing body of european football and they couldnt give a fvck... They just want it buried and forgotten

Well Fvck Them!!!!

Firstly a couple of thank yous :

In no particular order...

Liverpool City Council : On tuesday they went above and beyond anything I have witnessed anywhere in the world to make our fans welcome.
They were nothing short of great.
The liverpool local paper was also the first place you would have seen a straight out , no punches pulled apology

The Liverpool Police : The police on tuesday were the perfect example of how an occasion such as this should be handled.
They made it relaxed but safe and allways acted in the correct manor and treated our fans with respect and kindness.
On the odd occasion something did need sorting they did swiftly and without fuss... They were exemplary

Liverpool FC : Some may say they were missplaced , missguided or whatever else but they made a big effort... How we feel about it is one thing but we cannot deny they went out of their way to make it a great night for all and made a concerted effort to build bridges.

Juventus Club Londra : JCL went in my opinion way above what anyother fanclub has done on tuesday... making real attempts to bring fans togeather and promote friendship and understanding.
They also brought in the region of 500 members to the match who all acted with dignity... Every member of JCL shoud be proud of what they did on Tuesday.
And IMO all juventus fans across the globe should have nothing but praise for them.
I may not in anyway be an active member of JCL... But none the less On tuesday I was proud that I am able to say I am a member of Juventus Club Londra.
A special mention for the friendship match between fans which personally i felt to be a great idea.

The day :

Shortly before the game I saw what was the first thing I have ever seen that made me ashamed to be a juventus fan..

Standing waiting for the turnstile to open by the famous gates.
A small group of our 'fans' walked up anfield road towards where we were standing, as they made their way up the street they were singing in celebration of the Hillsborough disaster and clapping and cheering... Many of them even spitting on the Hillsborough memorial.
This made me physically sick... Whatever they feel about liverpool and the heysel disaster there is absolutely no excuse for this atrocious, dispicable and inhumane act... There is absolutely no excuse for celebrating and spitting on the 96 dead of hillsborough.
The police quickly and calmly turned them back down the road without incident.

We then walked over to the turnstile and entered the ground.
On entry we were given a card with a message from Ian Rush and also the first apology from the club.
The program also included a written apology.
We did not receive the mentioned arm bands.

The atmosphere in the phoyer was electric a real sence of excitement and occasion.
We moved to our seats in time to see our players come out for their warm up... We sang to allmost all of them individually (especially DP who got an extended burst of song and huge applause) and they applauded back.

A bit later the banner proclaiming friendship and listing the 39 dead was brought towards the anfield road stand....
At this point 90 % of our fans cheered and clapped.
A few in the first few rows turned their backs and raised the middle finger to the disgust and anger of the rest of the stand.

My views on this :

I was dissapointed that they chose to do this.. However I understand why they did and I expected it.
After all ,Just because a gesture is offered does not mean it has to be accepted... Everyone is free to make their own choice.

The things that bothered me about this act... was not the refusal of an offer of friendship... It was the time they chose to do this.

What did they turn their backs too??
In my view they didnt jus turn their backs to the people walking with the banner or the word Amicizia... They turned their backs on the dead!!!

If they had turned their backs on the mosaic I would have no problem with that whatsoever... dissapointed but as i said it is everyones own choice... But to me they insulted our dead.

The other issues i had with the act were that the majority were youngsters who to be honest probably no little abou t heysel ( I did speak to a couple of them.. who did indeed have no idea.. jus this story of our angels and murder)... Not too mention many people in and around those rows were forced to do the same as those at the front.

The main issue to get across here, whether we agree or dissagree is that unlike what most papers will have you beleive a huge majority welcomed the gestures and were angered by those that didnt.

The Mosaic and minutes silence went virtually without a hitch.. Some liverpool fans were confused by us clapping during the silence and clearly felt insulted.. A sad clash of cultures.. No more as some would have you beleive.

Through out the match we had a great atmosphere with the normal stadia abuse going back and forth between the fans but generally good natured.

Alot of the fans swapped shirts and scarves at the end of the match and we applauded each other for along time.
My only dissapointment with the fans was that our 'organisers' didnt keep the songs going very well... often meaning songs were started all over the block as they kept letting it go dead.

The atmosphere between the two sets of fans was fantastic and all players were warmly applauded off the pitch.

As expected we were held back at the end whilst the home fans left... During this time The liverpoole players came out to warm down... the whole stand applauded them and they cheered and clapped back... It was a nice moment to end a great evening.

Many more things happened but i dont want to go through every little detail but i hope you see this was a wonderful night and mainly a night of friendship... Which i applaud

Some may say they were missplaced etc but they made an effort and I really dont see what else they could offer... They gave a full written apology the y offered friendship and made a real step imo.

It may not seem much but what else could they really do??

Apologies arnt the easiest things to give!!

You want them to jus give us the ball and let us win??

Or do you jus want blood ??

If so how does that make us better than those that committed these crimes??

Or is there nothing to settle you and you jus want to wallow in hatred for eternity??

You also have to remember these arent the same people that were present at heysel... Why should they pay for others crimes??

However hard we all need to move on!!
WE must never forget but we must get past where we are today!!

Please ,Please tell me what else anyone can do to stop the hatred???

As for the game... see my quote from the pope stops calcio thread posted before the match.
We will turn it around in turin... FORZA JUVEEEEE!!!!

What will happen next week... will we see friendship or hatred.. peace or violence... Im pretty sure i know the answer to that... But now is not the time or the place to get into that imo

As i said i had much much more to say esapecially to discuss the recent change in shape of curva scirea and its part in this but ive taken enough of your time,Thats it for now, sorry to waffle

JCK · Apr 7, 2005

Paul thank you very much, it was a good read.

I like the written apology that was given, I think it is a very nice gesture.

I will not go saying things that you just already said but I wonder how to stop the hatred. Revenge will definitely not help as it will make more hatred.

No one from the tragedy will be forgotten, but the tragedy has to be put aside and new page between the clubs and fans has to start.

Other people paying for what those have done is a tribal, primitive behavior that I hope our world has got rid of.

You feared a reaction from the fans that will make the whole Italian football pay like the English football did back then, I am hoping there is enough awareness and nothing of the like will happen.

Let us hope it will be a friendly atmosphere in Torino, the same way you described your experience and hopefully after that day the new page will be opened.

Thank you again

Lawnchair Bes · Apr 7, 2005

lets just say that these matters could have been handled much much worse. we should be happy with what we got.

Bjerknes · Apr 8, 2005

Paul, thank you for your time. That was wonderfully written and very informative.

The end result of the day sounds much better than some make it out to be, and thankfully most of our supporters showed respect during the ceremonies and when meeting with other Liverpool fans. That was also a classy move by exchanging shirts with Pool supporters as well. After what I have seen from this event my respect for Liverpool has even increased because it seems they did a lot to build bridges and start a friendship. And if they finally gave a written apology that is classy too.

I am ashamed, though, that some of our supporters spat at the Hillsborough memorial. That's just disgusting and heartless. I can see why some supporters are not ready for friendships yet, but that act is just terrible.

The way you alluded to the atmosphere at the return leg in Turin does not sound very promising, hopefully I'm wrong because nobody needs any trouble. If revenge is more important than the game itself, then that is just sad and football becomes irrelevant. Hopefully peace will win out on the night.

Thanks again Paul and take care in Turin.

IncuboRossonero · Apr 8, 2005

That was a really informative post Paul..not just an insiders view on the game but also a good opinion from an informed Juve fan on the Liverpool-Juve match-up in relation to the Heysel disaster.
I personally have always choosen not to comment on the disaster because: I know very little about what really went on; its one topic that has to do with Juve in which I will NOT comment on since it crosses the line of tifosi; lastly, unlike the doping scandals, favortism, etc. it is something for 'Juventini' to come to terms with on their own terms.
To be honest I expect more 'sh*t to hit the fan' rather than a few bad apples in the crowd turning their backs. However, it does not surprise me that the spitting on monuments, etc. was not reported.
Week after week in regular matches events are not reported..this should not be any different.
Back at the ranch, the Milan-Inter match-up was one that caused many NERVES among the CURVA SUD (Milan Curva) from the banner "LEONI: NOW MORE THAN EVER" to the nervous hymns in the first half. Once the Stam goal took place the Curva was its usual self and the anti-Inter songs began.

Chxta · Apr 8, 2005

Nice article Shadowy one.

Vinman · Apr 8, 2005

Thank you Paul, for one of the best articles I've ever read on this forum, or anywhere else, about our team, and what really goes on before, during, and after our games.

And as importantly, what the real reaction was to all the events that took place on Tuesday night.

Too many ppl used that picture as a way to tarnish our name.

I , like everyone else here, are very fortunate to have you as our "person on the inside", who will give us the true facts, whether we like what we hear , or not.

Thanks again Paul !!:thumb:

Bjerknes · Apr 8, 2005

Yes indeed. If there is anybody I envy on the forums, it would be Paul.

I wanna be on the inside. :down:

Fred · Apr 8, 2005

thanks paul for the feedback

Emma · Apr 8, 2005

omg you sad bastard :howler:

:dielaugh:

chelski · Apr 8, 2005

where did you get that from you fvcking liar!

chelski · Apr 8, 2005

I never posted anything of the sort,so stop trying so hard,hilary.

Nick Against the World (62 Viewers)

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