Nick Against the World (53 Viewers)

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


So your plan for America would be to just sit back and not retalliate for terrorist actions, thus giving the impression like their actions are okay. Just what we need.

Givin the US's reactions and the results so far, that sounds a lot better. I'd rather be a cautious defender with people calling me cowrad (note: this doesn't mean being a coward. It takes gutts to put your image aside and do what'll benifit your people in the long run).
You're also being naive in that you think that uncle sam had no part in this.

BTW, fighting terror from its core is not "sitting back." It's called: "dealing with it in a civilized manner and being an example."

Hell why don't we just pull all our troops out from the world, bring all our people home, and build a huge titanium dome over the United States. Maybe that would work.

That won't be necessary. A lot less people will hate us.

 

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[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++


Givin the US's reactions and the results so far, that sounds a lot better. I'd rather be a cautious defender with people calling me cowrad (note: this doesn't mean being a coward. It takes gutts to put your image aside and do what'll benifit your people in the long run).
You're also being naive in that you think that uncle sam had no part in this.

BTW, fighting terror from its core is not "sitting back." It's called: "dealing with it in a civilized manner and being an example."



That won't be necessary. A lot less people will hate us.

I know we had a part in this, I'm not an idiot. But I don't agree with you on your stance that doing nothing will help stop terrorism. Thats just plain stupid.

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


I know we had a part in this, I'm not an idiot. But I don't agree with you on your stance that doing nothing will help stop terrorism. Thats just plain stupid.

again, It's not "doing nothing." It's more like a lot of "undoing" and "acting smart."

Will the Palestinian-Israeli issue end by more bombing, killing, and terrorism?
Will the Chechnya-Russia issue end if Russia continues to invade cities and Radicals continue to terrorise Russian schools and theaters?

As a very general example,
Did the Algeria-France issue end between them when France reconsidered it's place there? Yes.
Are there Algerian terrorist terrorizing France now? are the French terrorizing Algerians? NO.

 

[Bjerknes]

Like terrorism and violence in the world, this topic will never end.

 

[Majed]

looking at it more positively,

Let's do the best we can to reduce these seemlessly endless things.

 

[Kaiser Franco]

"But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering

 

[juventus2]

Spian is the perfect exemple how to stop terrorism, they moved out of the countries they knew, attacked wrongly ( iraq ) and nothing happened since then.You have to let other countries make there own choices. If they want to kill Sadam Hussein they will do it alone, (ofcourse if people wouid be masacered its only a right thing to do. But becaouse Usa attacked them for no good, they now blame their missery on the Americans, becaouse they cant attack Americans other then Terrorism they do it

 

[Martin]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
"But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering

Exactly. Fear is a fantastic tool the government can use to gain support for its unpopular actions.

 

[Tom]

I think the key error both our and the US governments have made is in the "we do not negotiate with terrorists" .. I mean how else are you gonna solve the damn problem if you can't even figure out what the hell they are about and why the hell they do what they do?

 

[juventus2]

++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
I think the key error both our and the US governments have made is in the "we do not negotiate with terrorists" .. I mean how else are you gonna solve the damn problem if you can't even figure out what the hell they are about and why the hell they do what they do?

I think that you are wrong. Terrorisem is aform of action that wants change, if you give the terrorists the message that they can change somthing with there behaviour they will continue doing this. So i don't think any goverment should negotiate with terrorists if they want to stop it.

 

[Martin]

Tommy, I don't think that is the right approach. Obviously the leaders behind terrorist actions are radicals, they play on the general discontent in the population which allows them to recruit certain fractions into their organization. So they are participating in the struggle for power just like any other politician, and showing a willingness to negotiate I think would only weaken the position of the leaders who are faced with this problem.

What you want to do instead (mentioned by others here) is eliminate the motives for the population to be so discontent that they actually consider terrorist action a viable measure to improve their lives or say the lives of their compatriots. Not supplying Israel with the latest attack helicopters then used to terrorize the Palestine population is one thing. In fact the situation with Israel is so deeply rooted that a major chunk of the East-West situation in the Middle East can be traced back to Israel. Never has the opposition to the "West" been this strong in neighboring Arab states like Egypt (a large nation which is not without significance). Another no brainer is to not invade Iraq for financial gain and inadvertently or otherwise kill 10k Iraqi citizens, mostly civilians. But those are just the headline news, you also have stuff like keeping 2k people or what it were suspended at Guantanamo ("illegal combatants") without any concrete legal charges against them, with no legal precedent in fact, in clear violation of Human Rights and so forth. These things unite the Arab opposition against the US, people consider the US the biggest threat to world peace nowadays and as they also dump their allies along the way, one cannot help but feel a little uneasy about a state that will interfere anywhere without asking anyone's opinion. Without this being the case, Muslim fundamentalism would have a much more difficult task in recruiting the people who then commit suidice bombings and such.

 

[Zlatan]

++ [ originally posted by Vinman ] ++


Did these scumbags try to blow up the WTC in 1993 ???? That was their intent, wasnt it ???!!

These ppl have always hated the west, you can go back to the crusades tio find out just how much they hate Christians.

Bin Laden has spewed American hatred since 1990. Blame us for helping Kuwait and Saudi Arabia to fend off the Hussein tyrrant. If not for us, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia would be a part of Iraq right now

The GOAL of radical Islam is to make the whole world 1 nation of Islam, to destroy the non-believing infidels, and to die killing the infidels (which will bring them 72 virgins in their afterlife)

As far as Iraq goes, Hussein funded terrorism (Hamas), attacked and gased his own ppl (Kurds), didnt follow ANY UN sanctions against him-including attacking our warplanes in the no-fly zone, tried to obtain nukes, the list goes on and on..........

We can go round and round Z, but our real "allies" from before are still our allies now. I dont give a flying f uck what France or Germany think. We dont need them anyways !!!!

But the fact is you do, and if you (Americans) fail to see that I'm sorry. The whole world is connected, you need as many friends as you can get.

As for Saddam, I dont know if any evidence he supported and funded Hamas, and even if he did, Hamas fights for the liberation of Palistine and against the Israelis, and hence is of no danger to the US, except to US citizens who happen to be at the place of an attack accidentaly. So, no threat there. As for WMD's and biological weapons, the Kurd incident was almost 15 years ago and no evidence has been found that he had them and was able to use them now. The UN sanctions were on a number of things including medical supplies, food, material needed to help recover the industry etc. Does Food for Oil ring a bell? As for the nukes, well, lets see... Israel has them. India has them. Pakistan has them. North Korea has them. Iran is researching... why doesnt the US do something about them? Well, they probably will, I hear Iran has very nice oil deposits as well...

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


Yeah, and the those points can be determined without listening to common people like you. Don't get me wrong guys, I do care about what happens in other countries, and care about the opinions of outsiders. But what I DO NOT care for is people telling me who to vote for based on their experiances in another country, and whether or not they agree with what our President is doing. What if I said you should support your communist party in Bosnia Zlatan? Would you really care what I have to say? I know America has the biggest influence out of any country in the world, but that doesn't mean we should cater to all the world's views. We have issues here that need to be taken care of first off, and people should make their own decisions based on what is in their best interest. Sorry to say it but thats the purpose of an election.

Look at my avatar?

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


Do you actually think Majed that Arab terrorists will all of a sudden drop their plans of attacking US interests if Kerry wins the election? Or to a further extent, if the President aids the Palestinians and fixes the Iraq problem? I find that hard to believe. Terrorists are never going to change Majed, no matter how much you/we want them to. They will always find a reason to hate us, no matter what. Its not that easy.

No, but Kerry will probably have a much less radical approach to terrorism and the Arab world, which will lead to Maerica having a better image among the muslim world, hence leading to less terrorism.

Also, you have to realise that terrorism exiisted way before 9/11 and isnt just tied to the Muslim world. Timothy McVeigh anyone?

++ [ originally posted by Andy ] ++


So your plan for America would be to just sit back and not retalliate for terrorist actions, thus giving the impression like their actions are okay. Just what we need.

Hell why don't we just pull all our troops out from the world, bring all our people home, and build a huge titanium dome over the United States. Maybe that would work.

Do I remember something called the US Ballistic Missile Shield?

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
"But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering

Exactly, best post yet. It still happens here in Bosnia, 10 years after the war. You have a few "incidents", killings of Serb refugees by muslims, ore muslim refugees by serbs, and all of the sudden the nationalistic parties get all the votes. The people here want change, yet they vote for the same people every time.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++

No, but Kerry will probably have a much less radical approach to terrorism and the Arab world, which will lead to Maerica having a better image among the muslim world, hence leading to less terrorism.

Also, you have to realise that terrorism exiisted way before 9/11 and isnt just tied to the Muslim world. Timothy McVeigh anyone?

What does that have to do with anything discussed here? Obviously terrorism started before 9/11, nobody denies that.

Maybe so that Kerry will have a better image, but bastard terrorists don't care about that. Like I said before, they will always find a reason to hate us, no matter what we do. From the first World Trade Center bombing to 9/11, its obviously a problem which has started before the Bush era.

 

[Bjerknes]

++ [ originally posted by Zlatan ] ++


Look at my avatar?

You're a communist Zlatan?

 

[Martin]

Just kinda wondering why my posts are consistently ignored. Was there just nothing worth debating or?

 

[Tom]

Marts, the point about removing the motives for terrorism is obviously the key point here, and is actually what i was eluding to earlier. You surely have to find out what it is they have a problem with first though.. I mean sure, the Israael-palestine thing is one area but the iraqi terrosists.. I mean what exactly are they doing it for? The only way we'll find out is through negotiations I'm afraid, or mindless bombing which would put us on their level.

 

[Majed]

++ [ originally posted by Martin ] ++
Just kinda wondering why my posts are consistently ignored. Was there just nothing worth debating or?

nobody cares what you think.. you're just a computer nerd..



Seriously, I actually liked reading your posts it's just that we're at the point in the debate where points are being repeated. Both sides are clearly set on what they believe.

 

[Martin]

++ [ originally posted by Paolo_Montero ] ++
Marts, the point about removing the motives for terrorism is obviously the key point here, and is actually what i was eluding to earlier. You surely have to find out what it is they have a problem with first though.. I mean sure, the Israael-palestine thing is one area but the iraqi terrosists.. I mean what exactly are they doing it for? The only way we'll find out is through negotiations I'm afraid, or mindless bombing which would put us on their level.

It seems you weren't willing to adhere to my core basis on this and after all it is my opinion so you don't have to agree with me. But the way I see it, these terrorists leaders don't have any ideological objectives, all they want is power. And the means to obtain power is to use the discontent in the population to recruit operatives for their operations. The leaders never blow themselves up of course, they're too important for that, so it's the brainwashed common man if you will, normal people who actually commit these crimes. Now since the hatred towards the US is pretty damn strong and growing, recruitment probably won't be a problem in the time to come, it's been said that these various terrorist organizations actually have more volunteers than they need. So the key is to do something about everyone hating the US and its government, that's how you eliminate the cause for terrorism. Once that happens, these "warlords" who seek power will no longer find the people they need to launch such attacks. More importantly, once the general public in any said country starts condemning terrorist acts instead of supporting them or at least seeing them in some way justifiable, it becomes much more difficult to recruit people to do these things. Because what is the reality of today? Well, the suicide bombers, the people who actually plan and carry out the bombings are hailed as martyrs, they're actually seen as celebrities, movie stars in their own community, people look up to them. It's like blowing themselves up to kill a couple of Israeli soldiers is the noble mission in life they've been waiting for. So how in the world do you plan to eliminate the problem of terrorism by terrorizing them further? Doesn't work, does it. The more military action, the more people hate you, the more people willing to commit terrorist acts.

And Tommy, negotiating with the terrorist leaders is recognizing the power that they have, only makes their position stronger IMO. The only solution is to cut off their recruitment channel.

 

[Martin]

++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
nobody cares what you think.. you're just a computer nerd..

Well if what I said was considered obvious, then I would understand noone would feel like debating. If it were somehow outrageous, again some people would probably deem it pointless. So I was just wondering what the reason was..

 

[The Pado]

Well, this thread has officially gone to hell in a basket.