Nick Against the World (57 Viewers)

[Bjerknes]

For the sake of inflating my own ego and the ultimate "I TOLD YOU so" gloat ..please enjoy...

So what's your point? Are you seriously going to sit there and say damn you all for defending your side? If Milan was under the same scrutiny and had to deal with seemingly absurd allegations week in week out regarding the integrity of how you win, would you not defend Milan like many of us defended Juve in the past? Make no mistake, you would defend Milan until the proper evidence was released.

And with all this controversy surrounding Milan I do indeed smell a bit of hypocrisy...but we shall see what comes from that investigation.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[KB824]

So what's your point? Are you seriously going to sit there and say damn you all for defending your side? If Milan was under the same scrutiny and had to deal with seemingly absurd allegations week in week out regarding the integrity of how you win, would you not defend Milan like many of us defended Juve in the past? Make no mistake, you would defend Milan until the proper evidence was released.

And with all this controversy surrounding Milan I do indeed smell a bit of hypocrisy...but we shall see what comes from that investigation.

Andy, from what I've read, out of the four teams involved, Milan had the least amount of influence on any of these matches.


When you think about it, in hindsight, how "absurd" were those allegations really, when you take that into the context of what has gone on this past week.

I should have stayed in Los Angeles/San Diego for another week

 

[Snoop]

The bottom line, is that it seems that the club cheated. Did the players cheat? No, but then again they are not punishing the players directly, they will be punishing the club. The players will be free to go if Juve is relegated

And I find it very hard to believe that the powers that be at Juventus didn't at least have an inclination that something was going on. Do you really think that Moggi would do this on his own?? If that is indeed the case, the Mr. Moggi is a far more evil man than his detractors have painted him out to be.

Ofcourse I don't believe a 67 year old man doing these alone, but also I don't believe that Juventus is the force doing all these too. I am afraid more powerfull people are behind this, I mean locking refrees in room? warning a club (Fiorentina) to get relegated ? and also warning Galliani? which means Berlusconi was aware of what was going on. and everyone knows this, and afraid to talk? If these all Juventus as an organisation is doing, then not only serie B or C, but this club should be shut forever. If all these people were scared to talk, then only organisation like Mafia comes to my mind, If not other politicians too. But like I said before, they will not punished, only Moggi will and the other refrees, and the worst scenario will be Juve to Serie B, and no way lower than that..

 

[Bjerknes]

As noble as that would be, I would much rather see him playing somewhere else where he can be in the world spotlight again.


Preferrably England. He would thrive there.

I would love to see him stay on with Juventus and help us win promotion. If he does indeed leave us he will not be the same player to me despite always remembering what he has given to our side. I would not blame him for leaving either, however he has no reason to leave...he's no fame hunter who needs to be in the spotlight every single match. His home is at Juventus and if what one well-informed Juve supporter said about him on another forum is true then he will indeed stay with us until he retires.

 

[KB824]

I would love to see him stay on with Juventus and help us win promotion. If he does indeed leave us he will not be the same player to me despite always remembering what he has given to our side. I would not blame him for leaving either, however he has no reason to leave...he's no fame hunter who needs to be in the spotlight every single match. His home is at Juventus and if what one well-informed Juve supporter said about him on another forum is true then he will indeed stay with us until he retires.

I'm not saying he's a fame hunter by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just saying that he deserves to be in the spotlight again, in a place and a league where his talents can be fully realized and appreciated once again.

Del Piero will always be Del Piero to me, no matter where he goes. There's only one other player I've ever held in higher regard, and that was "The Divine Ponytail."

 

[Bjerknes]

Andy, from what I've read, out of the four teams involved, Milan had the least amount of influence on any of these matches.


When you think about it, in hindsight, how "absurd" were those allegations really, when you take that into the context of what has gone on this past week.

I should have stayed in Los Angeles/San Diego for another week

When you look at the events of the past week of course they do not look absurd. However, looking back over the course of the last couple seasons, the allegations thrown around by some of our rival fans were indeed considered absurd to us. I always knew Moggi was the least bit a saint, however would I ever think Moggi would lock and question the referees inside a room during the halftime of one of our matches? Not until these transcripts were released. It was absurd to us without the evidence, however, with these transcripts and subsequent reisgnations all over Italy, we have nothing left to believe besides rightful relegation to the lower divisions.

 

[Bjerknes]

Whatever the case, if Moggi and company cheated to win we deserve to be at least in Serie B, and if we are not given such a sentence there are far more problems within Italian football than we suspected. I, for one, am hoping we go down to Serie B and all the tainted titles are stripped away. The last two Scudetti, which are under heavy investigation, were both "won" under Capello, so having them taken away would not have me crying nor debating whether such a sanction is valid. From the performances on the pitch alone, we have not deserved these two Scudetti, especially the number 28.

 

[Snoop]

Whatever the case, if Moggi and company cheated to win we deserve to be at least in Serie B, and if we are not given such a sentence there are far more problems within Italian football than we suspected. I, for one, am hoping we go down to Serie B and all the tainted titles are stripped away. The last two Scudetti, which are under heavy investigation, were both "won" under Capello, so having them taken away would not have me crying nor debating whether such a sanction is valid. From the performances on the pitch alone, we have not deserved these two Scudetti, especially the number 28.

Canceling the 2 scudetti is a must, but the problem is we only know about these 2 years only, I wonder how was the rest. as for the demotion, I still can't find it logical, but whatever the decision is, I won't complain, I am all for a new start and a cleaner one..

 

[Azzurri7]

Just like Nick said, I can't see Juve going to serie B TBH....

1-Moggi isn't stupid and we all know that, If we were to go down to serie B, he'll atleast take couple of big clubs with us....(Milan,Lazio,Fiorentina).

2-And just like snoop said, this thing isn't only about Luciano, If It is proved that we were cheating then I guess there are "mafia" behind this. snoop already mentioned the things that Juve alone can't seem to be doing this.

3-I'm not sure If serie A can survive without the likes of Juve and Lazio, not to mention Milan...

So, I believe that If things went bad, maximum things can happen....

1-Take back the prev Scud and this one.
2-Moggi banned for life from football.
3-Paying penalty...(300 to 500m $$)

Thats IMO, anyhow I could be wrong though. But I can see things going this way If we were not innocent.

 

[IncuboRossonero]

Let's clear some things up .. some good points were made by Sergio and some justifiable defensive remarks by Swag/Greg but I think that to push Paul's point you should realize that..

This is not a court of law...we don't have to find Moggi guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to relegate Juve to Serie B....there is a trial but the burden of proof is not like in a criminal case..logically. If any legal representative is involved be it Directors, Managers, etc. then the sanction is relegation..for this reason MILAN is the only of the four teams guaranteed NOT to be relegated...the person involved was Meani who is a liason between Milan and the officials...SHOULD Milan be found guilty of the supposed charge the sanction is not relegation but a variety of things (such as fans stopping a game, etc.). It can be a deduction of points...but sorry...no Serie B...worse case...Inter get the scudetto but I'm sure they will manage to lose it

Here is what we know through the conversations:

Moggi was involved in the selection of officials for matches and commented on WHO he wanted and didn't want..
Moggi yelled and scolded Paparesta for a bad call and then locked him in the locker room and later told someone on the phone "I locked the bastard in his room for those calls..who does he think he is"

Moggi commented on the NICE calls certain officials made for example Siena MIlan when Milan was denied a goal in which Moggi told Pairetto "our man gave us a good gift" and they both laughed...(a "dis-interested Milan" you said Greg???)

Moggi recommened to Cannavaro to tell Facchetti he does not feel welcome and liked by the coach anymore and wants out ....
Moggi told Zlatan to play badly at Ajax in certain games and then demand a trade because he feels 'no passion for the team'..he even scolded Zlatan's rep. when the Swede scored 3 goals in a game stating "what the hell is he doing?? I told him not to play welll"

Moggi spoke to journalists such as Tossati and Biscardi and pressed them to downplay calls against or lack of calls for Milan....this particular call invovled the May 8 2005 match up in which Juve won 1-0 and Moggi told Tossati "there was a PK for Milan but don't talk about it...Biscardi won't"...Tossati assured Moggi he woudl not talk about it and said he would shift the conversation to Nesta's foul instead (How can Tossati EVER be respected again????????????)

I'm not sure what type of evidence people are looking for....IF the calls were vague in nature and the involvement was not known as is the case with some other teams then I would agree....i.e. Did Galliani know about Meani's actions?? etc. However, we have evidence that Moggi and Pairetto commented on the outcome of matches and the selection of refs for upcomign matches..in some of these we saw HORRIBLE calls...what more proof does one need?

More that I heard about today:

- Ancelotti testified for his position as Juve coach in the JUVE - PARMA game in 2000..the infamous "confusion in the box" call in which Parma was denied a goal with no explanation. Apparently a phone call from April 2005 with Collina who went on to officiate the Perugia game in which Juve lost stated that had the Parma incident not happened and the media blown the events on the headlines things would have ended differently for Juve but there was too much heat on them so things couldn't end as they wanted.. (very rough translation but thats the gist of it).

 

[IncuboRossonero]

Even if Juve does go to B or C or whatever I would hate to see players jump ship but I fear it will happen....I think Del Piero would be the only big name to stay on board much like Baresi did for Milan and come back to be thanked for it ever since .. Del Piero like Maldini, Costacurta and Baresi only bleeds for ONE TEAM...Zlatan would abandon ship faster than you can say 'heartless' and I think Inter would pick up as many players as possible as several perhaps going on loan...interesting to see what would happen to players at their prime or past it like Cannavaro, Thuram, etc.

 

[swag]

One thing is certain: Zlatan's jumping ship will have to be faster than my boot headed towards his ass...

 

[The Pado]

Juve's Serie B front line would be led by Del Piero and Al-Saadi Ghedaffi.

And right there is the reason I believe in the corruption of Serie A. Ghedaffi is a horrible footballer. Gheddaffi's money gets him on the Juventus Board of Directors. Ghedaffi all of sudden is on a Serie A roster forced upon coach Sersi Cosmi. Cosmi's Perugia get relegated and Luciano Gaucci slams all his players as heartless piesces of crap, "except for Saadi Ghedaffi" hmmmm. Then, guess who joins Cosmi at Udinese, yes it's your favorite son of a terrorist. No wonder Gaucci wants to bring everyone down with him. He was forced to take on Ghedaffi and pay his wages and Moggi couldn't even guarentee salvation for Perugia?

Big mistake on Moggi's part.

 

[3pac]

Pado and Swag, put on your 95 ft plasma tv's to mtv2. Just trust me, you will be impressed.

 

[swag]

Pado and Swag, put on your 95 ft plasma tv's to mtv2. Just trust me, you will be impressed.

Isn't that just all the crap that's too lame to air on an already lame MTV?

 

[3pac]

Isn't that just all the crap that's too lame to air on an already lame MTV?

I don't know, I only just discovered that mtv2 exists I never watch mtv, but when I saw "Fight Klub" under the tv guide menu, I couldn't resist.

"Underground freestyle emcee battles"

 

[swag]

Whatever the case, if Moggi and company cheated to win we deserve to be at least in Serie B, and if we are not given such a sentence there are far more problems within Italian football than we suspected. I, for one, am hoping we go down to Serie B and all the tainted titles are stripped away. The last two Scudetti, which are under heavy investigation, were both "won" under Capello, so having them taken away would not have me crying nor debating whether such a sanction is valid. From the performances on the pitch alone, we have not deserved these two Scudetti, especially the number 28.

If a lot of this is as grave as some people are suggesting, it can't stop with Juve either. And I don't mean this in a take-others-down-with-you way. I mean that the health of calcio in Italy is at stake. As other people outside the country are saying, it was going to be a matter of time before La Lega has a stroke or heart attack to shake up where it's been headed over the years. We could say that sending down Juve to Serie B or lower would hurt Lega Calcio almost as much as Juve itself, but Lega Calcio is hurting regardless.

We've got a much narrower competitive field among Scudetto contenders. We have TV rights, salaries, and endorsement deals making ever more enormous gaps between rich and poor clubs. We have dying stadium attendances, crappy stadium conditions where the CL would never dare host it in Italy, and ever more marginalized TV accessibility to the public. Then you throw on the suggested widespread temptations for corruption, a culture of secrecy and backroom deals and "what can we get away with that our competition might not", etc... the very viability of professional calcio in Italy is at stake.

Besides more checks and balances, more independent validation of club financials and transparency, and rules to prevent conflicts of interest (IMO, not to slam Galliani as retribution about this at all, but, IMO, it's ludicrous that a person of his league position should also hold so prominent a club position)... I'm not going to suggest that they need to introduce salary caps, TV revenue sharing deals, etc. But nothing should be off the table.

If this goes as the worst Juve-haters say it should, the worst thing for the league would be to punish a few select clubs and claim justice was served and presume it will never happen again because an example was made. Then they're just putting off the inevitable... just slapping a band-aid on a patient going into shock from internal bleeding.

 

[denco]

Let's clear some things up .. some good points were made by Sergio and some justifiable defensive remarks by Swag/Greg but I think that to push Paul's point you should realize that..

This is not a court of law...we don't have to find Moggi guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to relegate Juve to Serie B....there is a trial but the burden of proof is not like in a criminal case..logically. If any legal representative is involved be it Directors, Managers, etc. then the sanction is relegation..for this reason MILAN is the only of the four teams guaranteed NOT to be relegated...the person involved was Meani who is a liason between Milan and the officials...SHOULD Milan be found guilty of the supposed charge the sanction is not relegation but a variety of things (such as fans stopping a game, etc.). It can be a deduction of points...but sorry...no Serie B...worse case...Inter get the scudetto but I'm sure they will manage to lose it

Here is what we know through the conversations:

Moggi was involved in the selection of officials for matches and commented on WHO he wanted and didn't want..
Moggi yelled and scolded Paparesta for a bad call and then locked him in the locker room and later told someone on the phone "I locked the bastard in his room for those calls..who does he think he is"

Moggi commented on the NICE calls certain officials made for example Siena MIlan when Milan was denied a goal in which Moggi told Pairetto "our man gave us a good gift" and they both laughed...(a "dis-interested Milan" you said Greg???)

Moggi recommened to Cannavaro to tell Facchetti he does not feel welcome and liked by the coach anymore and wants out ....
Moggi told Zlatan to play badly at Ajax in certain games and then demand a trade because he feels 'no passion for the team'..he even scolded Zlatan's rep. when the Swede scored 3 goals in a game stating "what the hell is he doing?? I told him not to play welll"

Moggi spoke to journalists such as Tossati and Biscardi and pressed them to downplay calls against or lack of calls for Milan....this particular call invovled the May 8 2005 match up in which Juve won 1-0 and Moggi told Tossati "there was a PK for Milan but don't talk about it...Biscardi won't"...Tossati assured Moggi he woudl not talk about it and said he would shift the conversation to Nesta's foul instead (How can Tossati EVER be respected again????????????)

I'm not sure what type of evidence people are looking for....IF the calls were vague in nature and the involvement was not known as is the case with some other teams then I would agree....i.e. Did Galliani know about Meani's actions?? etc. However, we have evidence that Moggi and Pairetto commented on the outcome of matches and the selection of refs for upcomign matches..in some of these we saw HORRIBLE calls...what more proof does one need?

More that I heard about today:

- Ancelotti testified for his position as Juve coach in the JUVE - PARMA game in 2000..the infamous "confusion in the box" call in which Parma was denied a goal with no explanation. Apparently a phone call from April 2005 with Collina who went on to officiate the Perugia game in which Juve lost stated that had the Parma incident not happened and the media blown the events on the headlines things would have ended differently for Juve but there was too much heat on them so things couldn't end as they wanted.. (very rough translation but thats the gist of it).

The more i read the more worried i am about all this nonsense, not as per the fate of juve per se but about football in general. It is very bad to read that players like Cannavaro and especially Zlatan to play badly for their clubs. The inference is very huge to me. What has Moggi got against Ajax anyways, he asks for a prefered ref in a cl encounter, he informs Zlatan to play badly and when you think Ajax is the club that made us win our second only cl, its quite baffling. But seriously do we not have to start thinking maybe some other club told Zlatan to play this badly on purpose since it seems he has no scruples whatsoever. If he plays great in the wc as he seemd to conveinently hit some sort of form at the last 2 games of the season, don;t we as fans feel cheated by him? Ajax should be going ape shit if all this is true.
And whats all this about Moggi asking national team managers which players they should pick? Was Capello pressured into picking certain players? Was Lippi before him? This is all so messy

 

[Cronios]

One of the stupidiest accusations i ve red so far these days is
that Moggi controled the media,
thats totally absurd,
even if he had the intention to corrupt one or two reporters in one our two occasions,
its probably more because he (and we) was sick and tired of all those Anti-Juve accusations the Italian media are full of all those years...
there are TV shows every week that bash Juve and struggle to find and underline a ref mistake that would possibly help Juve, ignoring whats happening in the rest of Serie A,
there are Huge headlines in newspapers every single time they have the change to point out these Anti-Juve theories (long before the scandal, this is something everybody can notice,not even our sworn enemies dont dare to deny it)
If Moggi had the power to manipulate the media wouldnt he stopped it?
wouldnt he tried to change the situation and use them for his benefit?
On the contrary he choosed silenzio stampa...

This how he treated tha matter and know this is what he gets about this,
their revenge...

 

[Azzurri7]

Juve's Serie B front line would be led by Del Piero and Al-Saadi Ghedaffi.
.

I wouldn't want to Imagine that.