Nanking Massacre (1 Viewer)

AlexTheGreat

Senior Member
May 10, 2006
999
#1
Taday is a memorable day to our people, its 69th anniversary of Nanking Massacre. many of you might not as familiar with this history as how the German Nazi massacre the Jews in World War II, so I'll put some articles here to remind you what kind of terrible things was happened on the day of December 13, 1937.
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From Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

The Nanking Massacre, commonly known as "The Rape of Nanking", refers to the most well-known of the war crimes committed by the Japanese military carried out by Japanese troops in and around Nanjing (also known in English as Nanking), China, after it fell to the Imperial Japanese Army on December 13, 1937. The duration of the massacre is not clearly defined, although the period of carnage lasted well into the next six weeks, until early February 1938.

During the occupation of Nanjing, the Japanese army committed numerous atrocities, such as rape, looting, arson and the execution of prisoners of war and civilians. Although the executions began under the pretext of eliminating Chinese soldiers disguised as civilians, a large number of innocent men were wrongfully identified as enemy combatants and killed, or simply killed in any event as the massacre gathered momentum. A large number of women and children were also killed, as rape and murder became more widespread.

The extent of the atrocities is hotly debated, with numbers ranging from some Japanese claims of several hundred[citation needed], to the Chinese claim of a non-combatant death toll of 300,000. A number of Japanese researchers consider 100,000-200,000 be an approximate value[1]. Other nations usually believe the death toll to be between 150,000-300,000[citation needed]. This number was first promulgated in January of 1938 by Harold Timperly, a journalist in China during the Japanese invasion, based on reports from contemporary eyewitnesses. Many other sources, including Iris Chang's commercially-successful The Rape of Nanking, also promote 300,000 as the death toll.

In addition to the number of victims, a few extreme nationalists have even disputed whether or not the atrocity happened. Whilst the Japanese government has acknowledged such an incident did occur, the extremists presented their case starting with the Japanese army's claims at the International Military Tribunal for the Far East that the death toll was military in nature and that no such civilian atrocities ever occurred. However, an overwhelming amount of evidence contradicts this. The existence of such an atrocity has been repeatedly confirmed by statements of Westerners at the International Military Tribunal for the Far East as well as eyewitnesses then today, who had personally witnessed civilians being murdered and women raped by Japanese soldiers. There is also an extensive collection of photographic records of mutilated bodies of Chinese women and children. Recent archaeological findings further support the existence of this massacre having taken place.

The massacre is a major focal point of burgeoning Chinese nationalism, and in China, opinions are relatively homogenous[citation needed]. In Japan, however, public opinion over the severity of the massacre remains widely divided - this is evidenced by the fact that whereas some Japanese commentators refer to it as the 'Nanking massacre' (南京大虐殺, Nankin daigyakusatsu), others use the more ambivalent 'Nanking incident' (南京事件, Nankin jiken). The event continues to be a point of contention and controversy in Sino-Japanese relations.

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nearly 70 years past, some people in Japan still denied the Japanese government and militaries at that time should be condemned for the death of 300,000 innocent people, esp. most of politicians even their PM, while there are countless evidences, witnesses and survivors all pointing out that they were murderers

what do you think?
please discuss
 

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OP

AlexTheGreat

Senior Member
May 10, 2006
999
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #2
    pic from one of the massacre scene

    the Japanese soldiers burnt a nanjing civilian alive for fun

    the Japanese soldiers practised killing skill on living prisoner of war
     

    GordoDeCentral

    Diez
    Moderator
    Apr 14, 2005
    69,393
    #3
    instead of politicizing the issue and vilifying a whole people, it would have been more honorable to remember the victims in a more solemn manner. Especially since china's record lives in a glass house here i.e tibet/cultural revolution...
     

    Wraith

    Junior Member
    Sep 1, 2006
    331
    #4
    Altair I dunno where you're from, but I know in the States the Nanjing massacre is very rarely discussed. At least in my opinion, the United States has never experienced any disaster, natural or military, of this scale on home soil. I also truly believe that Western media focuses on the negatives of Chinese history and politics without ever considering the positives, except to remark on how their fast-growing economy doesn't affect rural people at all. Fundamentally it's all political. Before North Korea announced the nuclear bomb test, Washington criticized the human rights issues constantly, but not any more, because now they need China's help.

    Wow off topic for a while, but anyways:

    As far as Nanjing goes, it was an atrocity, a blemish on Japanese history, and neither the Chinese nor the Japanese have been too quick to forgive or forget. I remember there was some Japanese history textbook that aroused a lot of controversy because it glossed over Nanjing. Moreover, it was only one incident of Japanese aggression - similar things happened in Korea, and other places that I can't remember. I know a lot of my Chinese classmates' parents hate Japanese people for what their country has done in the past. There's a lot of pride and anger still at stake. And it's a shame to have the two big Asian countries culturally, then politically at odds because of bad history.
     

    swag

    L'autista
    Administrator
    Sep 23, 2003
    83,474
    #5
    I have to back Altair on this one. The Rape of Nanking is known about and discussed in this country. I would argue it's more widely known and discussed than, say, the Armenian genocide at the beginning of the last century.

    Not that I excuse these abhorrent acts of history in any way, I have also recognized this much: atrocities have been committed against peoples everywhere and practically by anybody if you go far back in history long enough.

    Wraith can talk about the U.S. never having experienced such a disaster of this scale on home soil, but he completely neglects what happened to the Native American populations here -- where entire Indian nations were systematically slaughtered, classified as subhuman, raped, pillaged, etc. All of which proves that he is just as guilty of lacking recognition and remembrance of atrocities as anyone else he might accuse someone of being.

    What concerns me most about this line of discussion is that it leads us to a culture of competitive historical victimization. I suffered more than you. You owe me. And that tends to create a black sickness on the psyche and soul of a people that can devastate not only themselves but everyone else around them. Look at the Balkans in the 1990s. Look at the Rwandan genocide. Those were direct results of cultures who let this anger and pride over past hurts and resentments get way out of hand. Cultures create a collective sense of victimization and put themselves in position to need avenging for that -- even for evils that happened generations ago. It's a sickness, pure and simple -- a cancer that will eat you alive and devour anybody around you in the process.

    I'm not saying that everybody should turn the other cheek or pretend it didn't happen. But what I am saying is that any people who live off this sense of historical victimhood are dooming themselves and those around them. That the Chinese government enforces restrictions on public assembly but then allows public gatherings to stoke the anti-Japanese fires of resentment over the Nanking tragedy is playing with dynamite. Dynamite that will blow everyone's fingers off -- and not just the directly guilty Japanese who have been dead and buried for dozens of years.

    And more to what Altair wrote, let any of you who come from a race or people who have never had historical guilt over the massacre of other peoples cast the first stone.
     

    BIG DADDY!!!

    Senior Member
    Mar 12, 2004
    5,027
    #6
    Taday is a memorable day to our people, its 69th anniversary of Nanking Massacre. many of you might not as familiar with this history as how the German Nazi massacre the Jews in World War II, so I'll put some articles here to remind you what kind of terrible things was happened on the day of December 13, 1937.
    _________________________________________
    My deepest sympathy!!
     

    Wraith

    Junior Member
    Sep 1, 2006
    331
    #7
    I have to back Altair on this one. The Rape of Nanking is known about and discussed in this country. I would argue it's more widely known and discussed than, say, the Armenian genocide at the beginning of the last century.
    Lol I am in the States, that's why I said that. Look in history textbooks or magazines, just as an example: we talk about how great Japan is and how terrible China is, making constant references to human rights. The Armenian genocide is actually mentioned in the news quite often, when discussing Turkey's entrance to the EU. Clearly both China and Japan have had low points in their respective histories, but I don't feel that it's fairly portrayed.

    Not that I excuse these abhorrent acts of history in any way, I have also recognized this much: atrocities have been committed against peoples everywhere and practically by anybody if you go far back in history long enough.
    Agree with you there.

    Wraith can talk about the U.S. never having experienced such a disaster of this scale on home soil, but he completely neglects what happened to the Native American populations here -- where entire Indian nations were systematically slaughtered, classified as subhuman, raped, pillaged, etc. All of which proves that he is just as guilty of lacking recognition and remembrance of atrocities as anyone else he might accuse someone of being.
    First of all, "she." :pumpkin:

    Secondly, that's not a very comparable incident when discussing the effect of atrocities on international relations. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I meant that because the US has never experienced a similar event, people in the States have more trouble understanding and relating to the raw emotions felt by those who have had such things happen to themselves or their parents or their parents' friends' neighbors. I don't live in China, so I'm sure I don't completely understand the way Chinese-Chinese feel either.

    What concerns me most about this line of discussion is that it leads us to a culture of competitive historical victimization. I suffered more than you. You owe me. And that tends to create a black sickness on the psyche and soul of a people that can devastate not only themselves but everyone else around them. Look at the Balkans in the 1990s. Look at the Rwandan genocide. Those were direct results of cultures who let this anger and pride over past hurts and resentments get way out of hand. Cultures create a collective sense of victimization and put themselves in position to need avenging for that -- even for evils that happened generations ago. It's a sickness, pure and simple, and it devours others around them.
    Agreed as well. But I think it would be hard to swallow your hatred if you had seen, as a child, your grandmother strung up on a line by a wire through her feet or your uncle forced to swallow gallons and gallons of oil, or if you had heard from an older relative how they left just enough people alive to throw the 100,000 dead into trenches...

    I'm not saying that everybody should turn the other cheek or pretend it didn't happen. But what I am saying is that any people who live off this sense of historical victimhood are dooming themselves and those around them. That the Chinese government enforces restrictions on public assembly but then allows public gatherings to stoke the anti-Japanese fires of resentment over the Nanking tragedy is playing with dynamite. Dynamite that will blow everyone's fingers off -- and not just the directly guilty Japanese who have been dead and buried for dozens of years.
    Like I said, a lot of it is politics. Personally I find it moderately ridiculous that Koizumi refused to apologize, instead offering sentiments of "deep remorse." Now it's just a matter of wording, but Japanese and Chinese culture dictate that subtle wording be interpreted to its full meaning and implication. Also, I think a lot of people don't realize how apolitical the vast majority of the Chinese population is. Probably safe to say that 99.9% of people care more about feeding their family, earning money, and moving up the social ladder than about restrictions on public assembly. There are so many people in China that a large number is assembled at any given time.

    Japan...most people probably don't think about it at any given time either. But when the PM makes a comment like that, it makes people think and remember. The younger generation is beginning to forget, but Chinese people already remember 5000 years of history, so it's not too much trouble to remember what happened to them 75 years ago.
     

    swag

    L'autista
    Administrator
    Sep 23, 2003
    83,474
    #8
    Nice reply. :)

    Lol I am in the States, that's why I said that.
    Of course, I can be biased because I work only a half-mile from the parade route of the biggest Chinese New Year's parade in the world outside of China. And not only have I known about Nanking, but I'm also used to seeing public demonstrations and window displays in buildings nearby here.

    First of all, "she." :pumpkin:
    :oops: My mistake. Sorry -- won't make that again!

    Secondly, that's not a very comparable incident when discussing the effect of atrocities on international relations. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I meant that because the US has never experienced a similar event, people in the States have more trouble understanding and relating to the raw emotions felt by those who have had such things happen to themselves or their parents or their parents' friends' neighbors.
    I probably have a more cynical response, really. Americans are too busy making money and worrying about getting their own to concern themselves much with generational ties to any one people or race. (It's more true the more as we see intercultural marriages, etc.)

    Agreed as well. But I think it would be hard to swallow your hatred if you had seen, as a child, your grandmother strung up on a line by a wire through her feet or your uncle forced to swallow gallons and gallons of oil, or if you had heard from an older relative how they left just enough people alive to throw the 100,000 dead into trenches...
    Absolutely. But I also think there would be some people who are tempted to go the dark side of things and dwell in that. To let it consume them. To open their ears to people who might have all the more outlandish and even made-up atrocity stories to blur and confuse the lines between reality and statements made to shock. And when that happens, people can be as good as lost. It can be so consuming as to be self-destructive as well as destroying in revenge against others.

    In any case, that kind of obsession is a sickness and begets only more violence, animosity, and perceived wrong-doing. The next thing you know, some oblivious Japanese-looking tourist (he might even be Hawaiian) cuts off someone in traffic and a group of people feel entitled and justified to rip his entrails out.

    Like I said, a lot of it is politics. Personally I find it moderately ridiculous that Koizumi refused to apologize, instead offering sentiments of "deep remorse."
    No question the Japanese have their issues too...

    Also, I think a lot of people don't realize how apolitical the vast majority of the Chinese population is. Probably safe to say that 99.9% of people care more about feeding their family, earning money, and moving up the social ladder than about restrictions on public assembly.
    Per my comments above, they sound a lot like Americans in that regard.

    Japan...most people probably don't think about it at any given time either. But when the PM makes a comment like that, it makes people think and remember.
    I can't tell you how much apologizing I feel I owe the world because of my idiot president (whom I not only did not vote for, but actively campaigned in fundraisers against his re-election).
     

    Geof

    Senior Member
    May 14, 2004
    6,740
    #9
    I feel like a typical western arrogant and ignorant prick, but I actually never heard of Nanking. I'm no history expert, but this is a thing I never even heard of in school, nor on the news.

    My deepest sympathy to all the families.

    Doesn't really matter who did this to whom. Japanese, Chinese, North Koreans, Germans, Italians, Serbs, Hutu's, Turks, Belgians, French, English, Americans,... I mean I could go on for hours like that, almost every nation has had it's share of raping and massacring. Heck, even the scandinavians had the vikings.
    Forget the politics. Don't forget the past, but quit thinking "it's them who did that" and all.
    I'm belgian. My country has been invaded twice by Germany in a century. My family suffered from it. See where I live for the moment? Right, Berlin.
     
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    AlexTheGreat

    Senior Member
    May 10, 2006
    999
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #10
    instead of politicizing the issue and vilifying a whole people, it would have been more honorable to remember the victims in a more solemn manner. Especially since china's record lives in a glass house here i.e tibet/cultural revolution...
    I have no intention to rise an argument of anti-japanese or what so even by opening such a thread. I just trying to tell you people the truth of a history which someone want it to be forgotten by the time lapse. And I am not accusing the current Japanese government or their people should take this responsibility but at least they need to say sorry to the people who suffered from what their fathers or grandfather's crimes in the past years, just like what ex-German PM did to the Israel people in 1970's. But now I dont see any official intention of Japanese government to do this.

    Allow me to remind you, Altair. Yes, the cultural revolution, it was a big mistake, but come on, it happened 30 years ago. Once a race was savagery should they always be marked a savagery with ignoring their development? Oh ye, Tibet. Do you know what happened to a normal people in tibet before the Liberation Army pull down the governing of Dalai? they are slaves, and their lives not better then a horse or a pig, people's average living age at that time was less than 40, and now this number increased to over 65. till now Dalai cant stop dreaming to come back to this place to enslave these people again. If I have enough money I will invite people like you myself to Tibet to see what is real happening right now.
     
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    AlexTheGreat

    Senior Member
    May 10, 2006
    999
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #12
    I'm not saying that everybody should turn the other cheek or pretend it didn't happen. But what I am saying is that any people who live off this sense of historical victimhood are dooming themselves and those around them. That the Chinese government enforces restrictions on public assembly but then allows public gatherings to stoke the anti-Japanese fires of resentment over the Nanking tragedy is playing with dynamite. Dynamite that will blow everyone's fingers off -- and not just the directly guilty Japanese who have been dead and buried for dozens of years.
    You might not know, its the right Chinese government who gave up the right of requiring the compensation of the War from Japan. The only reason was that our people would never allow to live a better life base on the pains of others. A stupid and unlogical reason, uh? Thats the way we treat our friends but someone took our kindness as their advantage. your people already knew what it would be if you piss off Chinese, I hope someone else could learn more from the history to make sure such a thing would never happen again
     

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