'Murica! (412 Viewers)

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,307
IMO he makes a compelling argument, i don't expect most to agree with it, but it articulates pretty well the way muricans views guns and their necessity in society.
It does.

It is a very American way of seeing this issue. As a European this is so foreign to me I'd almost want to say it doesn't make sense, but it does. It's just that this is not at all very relevant to my experience in my country.

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GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
70,774
I understand his point.

But the idea of a functioning democracy is that there is someone who has brute force: the government. And the government, that's us. We don't need guns, because we have capable people using guns for us, if need be.

And also, if the lunatic next door doesn't have a gun in the first place, I don't need a gun to protect myself from him.

I understand this is a fascination Americans have. And it's not like the theory at least makes zero sense. But pretty much all Western European countries are a perfect counterexample.

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Yep that's exactly the root of the argument: the position of govt vis a vis the citizenry.
 

AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
31,780
I grew up around guns, I first shot a rifle at like 6 years old. But there are MANY people in this country that should not even be allowed to look at a gun because they're retarded and can't handle the responsibility. That's all it comes down to, and I do not understand how that isn't universally accepted and enforced.
 
Jun 16, 2020
12,435
I grew up around guns, I first shot a rifle at like 6 years old. But there are MANY people in this country that should not even be allowed to look at a gun because they're retarded and can't handle the responsibility. That's all it comes down to, and I do not understand how that isn't universally accepted and enforced.
What exactly should be enforced?
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
84,749
IMO he makes a compelling argument, i don't expect most to agree with it, but it articulates pretty well the way muricans views guns and their necessity in society.
It's less an argument than a worldview, really. Some people believe we should all live on communes and eat off the land and crap in a bucket.

Some people think social order is more toxic than the law of the personal gun and would prefer to live in a might-makes-right Hobbesian world.

He wants society to “lock up the crazies”, whatever that means, while at the same time ensuring everyone has a gun. I guess he thinks we can just Minority Report everyone or have predictive analytics or AI to predict who is going to lose their shit one day? That sounds like a recipe for success if you ask me.

This guy writes like he wants to shoot up the capitol building.
Locking up the crazies is a good one. And not just because it's what Reagan reversed, and not just because he's advocating for people to arbitrarily take civil rights away, and it's not because not all shooters are "crazies".

It's the notion that there is some absolute judgement of what's crazy and what isn't. And without a state to intervene with laws, protections, and standards, we're back again at the law of the gun. Which means crazy is irrelevant. My gun or your gun decides what is crazy and what isn't.

I understand his point.

But the idea of a functioning democracy is that there is someone who has brute force: the government. And the government, that's us. We don't need guns, because we have capable people using guns for us, if need be.

And also, if the lunatic next door doesn't have a gun in the first place, I don't need a gun to protect myself from him.

I understand this is a fascination Americans have. And it's not like the theory at least makes zero sense. But pretty much all Western European countries are a perfect counterexample.

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America has this individualism pride, which is also what makes child care impossible and social loneliness and a replacement with digital facsimiles off the charts. Guns come very handy in that mentality, because you're independent of police, judge, and jury.

Some of us believe that human civilization enabled a better quality of life for citizens to agree to common laws and behaviors that are acceptable vs unacceptable. The benefit being that you're less likely to have to spend your energy fortifying your Montana wilderness compound to fire rifles and throw grenades at any stranger that walks through the nearby forest. And by enabling that, you allow people to engage in business, in culture and the arts, in education, in sharing collective building and collective risk-taking. Without constant fear of murder, rape, and kidnapping.

But for some people, life is about always worrying about murder, rape, and kidnapping. And that Hobbesian way is a better way to live, because you can be independent and in control of your own fate. Even if the ultimate likelihood is you won't live past 35 with a bullet in your neck.

Yep that's exactly the root of the argument: the position of govt vis a vis the citizenry.
Even packs of wolves have better sense of the benefits of social governance than this guy. If you want to live with impunity, you have to accept dying with impunity.
 

s4tch

Senior Member
Mar 23, 2015
33,523
does this guy have any idea on how economy works? :lol3: and do his voters have any clue or they don't even realize what's wrong with what he's saying?

 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
115,907
It's less an argument than a worldview, really. Some people believe we should all live on communes and eat off the land and crap in a bucket.

Some people think social order is more toxic than the law of the personal gun and would prefer to live in a might-makes-right Hobbesian world.



Locking up the crazies is a good one. And not just because it's what Reagan reversed, and not just because he's advocating for people to arbitrarily take civil rights away, and it's not because not all shooters are "crazies".

It's the notion that there is some absolute judgement of what's crazy and what isn't. And without a state to intervene with laws, protections, and standards, we're back again at the law of the gun. Which means crazy is irrelevant. My gun or your gun decides what is crazy and what isn't.



America has this individualism pride, which is also what makes child care impossible and social loneliness and a replacement with digital facsimiles off the charts. Guns come very handy in that mentality, because you're independent of police, judge, and jury.

Some of us believe that human civilization enabled a better quality of life for citizens to agree to common laws and behaviors that are acceptable vs unacceptable. The benefit being that you're less likely to have to spend your energy fortifying your Montana wilderness compound to fire rifles and throw grenades at any stranger that walks through the nearby forest. And by enabling that, you allow people to engage in business, in culture and the arts, in education, in sharing collective building and collective risk-taking. Without constant fear of murder, rape, and kidnapping.

But for some people, life is about always worrying about murder, rape, and kidnapping. And that Hobbesian way is a better way to live, because you can be independent and in control of your own fate. Even if the ultimate likelihood is you won't live past 35 with a bullet in your neck.



Even packs of wolves have better sense of the benefits of social governance than this guy. If you want to live with impunity, you have to accept dying with impunity.
That guy Gordo posted sounds crazy. I think he should be shot.

See, two can play this game.

does this guy have any idea on how economy works? :lol3: and do his voters have any clue or they don't even realize what's wrong with what he's saying?

His redneck supporters do not have college degrees. They don’t understand how anything works. But if I was a billionaire owning my own widget factories in the states, I would love this guy.

- - - Updated - - -

I actually think Trump could say I’m going to raise your taxes to MAGA and those people would still vote for him. Im gonna raise your taxes and by the way anybody in the military is a fucking moron. It’s a cult.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
115,907
I’m surprised nobody here mentioned how much better off we are today after the latest show of
Force in Kentucky. Dude was shooting up a highway.

https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1832570652626170102?s=46&t=44zFspkwtn4Oth1i9vk6Xg

Thank goodness he was an army vet and knows how to properly handle a firearm. Otherwise it could have been much worse.

If only everyone on the interstate that day had a firearm. This would have never happened.
 

AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
31,780
What exactly should be enforced?
Enforced is the wrong word, but some states have strict gun laws and others have very lax ones. Guns are bought in the lax states and trafficked into the strict ones, which is where the vast majority of our problems come from.

- - - Updated - - -

I’m surprised nobody here mentioned how much better off we are today after the latest show of
Force in Kentucky. Dude was shooting up a highway.

https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1832570652626170102?s=46&t=44zFspkwtn4Oth1i9vk6Xg

Thank goodness he was an army vet and knows how to properly handle a firearm. Otherwise it could have been much worse.

If only everyone on the interstate that day had a firearm. This would have never happened.
This is insanity.
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,307
does this guy have any idea on how economy works? 3: and do his voters have any clue or they don't even realize what's wrong with what he's saying?

It is literally a cost for the American citizen.

And no, his voters don't understand what he's saying. Every proposal he made so far drives inflation and makes it easier for him to pay off his debts.

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Ronn

Mes Que Un Club
May 3, 2012
20,854
I’m surprised nobody here mentioned how much better off we are today after the latest show of
Force in Kentucky. Dude was shooting up a highway.

https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1832570652626170102?s=46&t=44zFspkwtn4Oth1i9vk6Xg

Thank goodness he was an army vet and knows how to properly handle a firearm. Otherwise it could have been much worse.

If only everyone on the interstate that day had a firearm. This would have never happened.
That “Good guy with a gun” argument was so weak that even right wingers don’t make it that much anymore.

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The new argument is “these tragedies are horrible but they are the price of liberty”. It subtly suggests that the other side of the debate wants to ban guns and take away the second amendment. I have no doubt that there are many people who like that idea, but it’s currently not really a feasible proposition so it’s pointless to talk about it. But framing the debate like that closes any window for sensible laws that limit gun access. Like this guy in Kentucky was out on bail but managed to buy an AR-15 and 2000 rounds the day of the shooting. If you think this should be possible then you’re nuts.
 
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Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
115,907
That “Good guy with a gun” argument was so weak that even right wingers don’t make it that much anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

The new argument is “these tragedies are horrible but they are the price of liberty”. It subtly suggests that the other side of the debate wants to ban guns and take away the second amendment. I have no doubt that there are many people who like that idea, but it’s currently not really a feasible proposition so it’s pointless to talk about it. But framing the debate like that closes any window for sensible laws that limit gun access. Like this guy in Kentucky was out on bail but managed to buy an AR-15 and 2000 rounds the day of the shooting. If you think this should be possible then you’re nuts.
Yeah, but, he's a vet. So he knows how to use a firearm. Isn't that enough? Are you saying you're gonna take our vets gunz?
 

AFL_ITALIA

MAGISTERIAL
Jun 17, 2011
31,780
That “Good guy with a gun” argument was so weak that even right wingers don’t make it that much anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

The new argument is “these tragedies are horrible but they are the price of liberty”. It subtly suggests that the other side of the debate wants to ban guns and take away the second amendment. I have no doubt that there are many people who like that idea, but it’s currently not really a feasible proposition so it’s pointless to talk about it. But framing the debate like that closes any window for sensible laws that limit gun access. Like this guy in Kentucky was out on bail but managed to buy an AR-15 and 2000 rounds the day of the shooting. If you think this should be possible then you’re nuts.
This is what I mean @U Picciriddu
 

Seven

In bocca al lupo, Fabio.
Jun 25, 2003
39,307
That guy Gordo posted sounds crazy. I think he should be shot.

See, two can play this game.
His main point is that he has a gun and you don't.

So if anyone's shooting anyone, it's him shooting you.

- - - Updated - - -

That “Good guy with a gun” argument was so weak that even right wingers don’t make it that much anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

The new argument is “these tragedies are horrible but they are the price of liberty”. It subtly suggests that the other side of the debate wants to ban guns and take away the second amendment. I have no doubt that there are many people who like that idea, but it’s currently not really a feasible proposition so it’s pointless to talk about it. But framing the debate like that closes any window for sensible laws that limit gun access. Like this guy in Kentucky was out on bail but managed to buy an AR-15 and 2000 rounds the day of the shooting. If you think this should be possible then you’re nuts.
More importantly liberty is always limited.

None of the people who think there shouldn't be gun laws are against traffic rules. I haven't heard anyone claim it's a disgrace you can't go out, buy a Porsche 911 and drive 120 miles an hour in the middle of Manhattan on the sidewalk. We accept that rules exist. We accept limits to our freedom to have a better life for everyone.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
84,749
I mean, if there's anything about the American form of "freedom", you know that means the freedom to make money however you please. As long as it's legal, but maybe not.

So politics is just an opportunity for branding. Like "patriotic" beers, coffee, toilet paper. The Trump bible. You name it. Everybody making bank of blind political allegiances in Murica.

So what's more red-blooded American than bacon?

How about bacon in honor of our 16th President: Abraham Bacoln!

Rolling up my sleeves to bring Bacoln to homes across Murica, yo... me loves the smell of Robert Dinero.
 

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