'Murica! (138 Viewers)

lgorTudor

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2015
32,949
Racism in the US is also a conspiracy? You should tell that to your fellow citizens.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/04/09/key-findings-on-americans-views-of-race-in-2019/
muh feeling and emotion survey
muh waycisms

These polls only serve the purpose to evaluate how well the media apparatus is working which it clearly does. Here comes the real world reality check:
In 2019, there were 5.4 million total violent incidents involving victims age 12 or older. The portion of violent incidents involving black offenders (25%) was 2.3 times the portion involving black victims (11%), while the portion involving white offenders (50%) was 0.8 times the portion involving white victims (62%) and the portion involving Asian offenders (1.0%) was 0.4 times the portion involving Asian victims (2.3%).
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv19_sum.pdf
 

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IliveForJuve

Burn this club
Jan 17, 2011
18,399
Various sources have confirmed claims that the Pfizer vaccin is shown to be very effective, but due to succesfull aggressive approachy by the Trump administration, the first 60-90 million doses will go to the US.


If Cuomo wants to reject the vaccin for whatever reason, we would be happy to take those dosisses.
I guess you'd be happy being a guinea pig.
 

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
111,486
I think Turchin's research shows that "elite overproduction" is a bad thing. Think of it like a fish tank that gets out of balance and the algae blooms start taking over and killing fish. It seems his point is you don't get equilibrium back until more elites get killed off one way or other and diminish the supply. The work presumes an inelastic, scarcity mindset, which is worth questioning. But it does seem throughout history that an oversupply of elites who can't take power only gets disrupted by war, plague, or revolution. In his research, the "new elites" -- as you put them -- become disgruntled and resentful outsiders that try to crash the gatekeepers unless other natural forces reduce their relative numbers.
And that makes sense. But the question arises - who's fault is that? The old elites or the nouveau riche elites? I would say the course we have been on, led by the former, hasn't been all that great. So maybe the hope would be the old elite die off and new ones come into power? Not sure, both cold be problems.

You know, when you think about it, there are parallels at the elite level and the generational level, for example. Given the scarcity of housing, the finite limits of desirable real estate, and how its costs have completely outgrown inflation, it's set up a lot of high achieving millennials to be locked out of the ownership class. I've read how millennials could be economically split in the future between those who inherit from their dying boomer parents and those who don't.
That's why we could benefit from a reset, as painful as it may be. But the old elite don't want that reset. Why? Because it would directly threaten their existence. The world economy would collapse and they would probably lose power, unless they become even more authoritarian. The economic course we are on now isn't sustainable if we don't want to keep increasing the wealth gap, which is primarily driven by asset inflation that the average Joe get wrecked on since they don't own anything other than a 401K. The housing scarcity is partly a product of inflation, too, as raw it's become ridiculously expensive to a build a new house from scratch. I was looking to price out a pool for my backyard, but couldn't get any hard estimates from anybody and instead received a response of, our pools cost at least $80,000. $80,000 for someone to dig out a hole and dump some fiberglass into the ground? You know this shit isn't sustainable.

And don't worry about the soapbox. I may not agree with you, but I do want to hear the rationale behind your preferences here. And how you've characterized government here -- more to its realistic flaws far short of its lofty ideas -- is a fair assessment, IMO. Btw, could we reframe rent-seeking as basically any form of passive income requiring limited to zero labor?

Where I disagree with your opinion here is that I may be too much of an optimist here, but I think it's a cop out not to expect better from governance. Yes, the conservative notion is to look at governance as the problem and to put a tourniquet on it. But by doing so I think you only stand to address the symptoms and not the source of the problem. It's a bit like having a fever and starving yourself as a means of getting healthy again. That rather than seeing if you can save the arm, you think of cutting it off and cauterizing the wound. The US has an imperfect democracy. And despite the originalists, many great nations have updated their constitution to reflect modern times ... and not just by amendments. I think there's more to gain than lose in doing so for a 250 year old document.

I know my feelings these days are wholly full of holes, but my "Flight 93" election response -- as you noted -- is to do something dramatic altogether which scarily has some things in common with Trump governance doctrine: rid us of the professional politicians and replace them with a lottery system of representative government where, like jury duty, people of different walks of life are drafted and paid a salary to represent social problems that markets alone cannot fix (or exacerbate). It eliminates the pathway for a career ruling elite class, and it destroys much of the structure behind corporate influence and money-raising -- where our election system is awash with undue financial influence.

Oh, there are plenty of problems and details to work out. Not the least of which is you draft political amateurs who need to be educated on their representing issues from zero sometimes. But I would love to see some states or even just counties experiment with this idea. It's getting to be like the losing war on drugs: the current trajectory is abject failure.

p.s.: While Russia meddled with the election, I thought the premise as framed for Trump's impeachment that he was keeping Putin's secrets was ludicrous. For one, that Putin would trust Trump's ego and blabbermouth. For another, that Trump would know how to shut up and avoid self-incrimination.
My pessimism on government stems from having plenty of examples of it not working in this country, anywhere from a local to national scale. Hell, we can't even pass a secondary, supposedly needed stimulus bill during a pandemic for months. And my personal experiences with folks in government from my last few years in consulting, along with some people I know, only reaffirms my opinion that a lot of this is nonsense. I know people making over 100k on a .gov salary that do nothing but post jobs all day on a website - seriously. So when Democrats want to increase taxes on folks, at least some of those taxes are going to go towards increasing salaries for people rising up their GS levels just for occupying a seat for years without creating any actual value. Now, not all agencies are this pathetic and unneeded, FEMA being a prime example (know some folks there, too, but the same premise remains), but much of this nonsense is unsustainable as well. Add in the fact that government can't solve all problems and look to the private sector in a wide array of functions, you can sort of see my point. I think government should only focus on what is absolutely needed or what it can do well, other than blowing up stuff, of course.

My problem with professional politicians is that they don't create any value. They aren't held to any standard other than a popularity contest. Some local politicians in my area do nothing for years and somehow get re-elected, same with some on the US level. So that automatically creates inefficiencies IMO. So that's why I'm sort of a fan of your lottery system - it would be a safeguard against folks who want use the authority of office for the wrong reasons.
 

swag

L'autista
Administrator
Sep 23, 2003
83,440
so much hate for her among republicans. How can they look at that sweet face of hers and feel anything but adoration?

she really is the American dream tho. Came from middle class, worked her way through school and is now in a very impressive position in politics, which she is using to hold corporations accountable for their shitty actions.

she’s an inspiration and an example of the American dream.

BE482D22-DE8F-4FEE-9A23-EACD6A59422C.jpeg
I like the fact that she's under age 80. I also like the fact that she doesn't tow the establishment party line.

But representative? She isn't. Half of Florida think she's Alexandria Ocasio-Castro.

this is as good as a tv show

Trump is a TV show. He's run the presidency like his TV series. Except it got cancelled.

And that makes sense. But the question arises - who's fault is that? The old elites or the nouveau riche elites? I would say the course we have been on, led by the former, hasn't been all that great. So maybe the hope would be the old elite die off and new ones come into power? Not sure, both cold be problems.
I don't know if we can assign any one thing at fault. You could look at it and even say what's at fault is a period of human predictability and stability. Without World Wars and many global pandemics to upset the apple cart, People could project on a linear path, a predictable future, and partake in all the ceremonies of former ruling elites -- graduate degrees, the proper titles and roles at the proper businesses -- but without any of the room made for them to step in.

You could even view someone like Bill Gates and see what he's doing with his own persona and foundation as an end-around to force his money into creating a fake state for his ruling elite policy platform. (For the record, I think he's a douchebag who should just count his ill-gotten billions and stop trying to rule our public lives after the damages he caused.)

And I'm also not sure that finding blame is the right question for this. Sometimes species in nature get overpopulated because of a lack of predators and throw everything out of whack for a while.

That's why we could benefit from a reset, as painful as it may be. But the old elite don't want that reset. Why? Because it would directly threaten their existence. The world economy would collapse and they would probably lose power, unless they become even more authoritarian. The economic course we are on now isn't sustainable if we don't want to keep increasing the wealth gap, which is primarily driven by asset inflation that the average Joe get wrecked on since they don't own anything other than a 401K. The housing scarcity is partly a product of inflation, too, as raw it's become ridiculously expensive to a build a new house from scratch. I was looking to price out a pool for my backyard, but couldn't get any hard estimates from anybody and instead received a response of, our pools cost at least $80,000. $80,000 for someone to dig out a hole and dump some fiberglass into the ground? You know this shit isn't sustainable.
We got resets in major wars and disasters. Here's a crazy thought: maybe climate change is just the thing we need to rebalance the tables??

Because as it is now, all systems are set up to keep reinforcing inequities and there is otherwise nothing to stop it.

But $80k for a pool is nuts. It's not like you're adding a new floor to a house.

My pessimism on government stems from having plenty of examples of it not working in this country, anywhere from a local to national scale. Hell, we can't even pass a secondary, supposedly needed stimulus bill during a pandemic for months. And my personal experiences with folks in government from my last few years in consulting, along with some people I know, only reaffirms my opinion that a lot of this is nonsense. I know people making over 100k on a .gov salary that do nothing but post jobs all day on a website - seriously. So when Democrats want to increase taxes on folks, at least some of those taxes are going to go towards increasing salaries for people rising up their GS levels just for occupying a seat for years without creating any actual value. Now, not all agencies are this pathetic and unneeded, FEMA being a prime example (know some folks there, too, but the same premise remains), but much of this nonsense is unsustainable as well. Add in the fact that government can't solve all problems and look to the private sector in a wide array of functions, you can sort of see my point. I think government should only focus on what is absolutely needed or what it can do well, other than blowing up stuff, of course.
Well, the lack of stimulus bill passing probably has more to do with disagreement and negotiation than laziness or ineptitude per se. And I know more than a few people who would agree with you on the good use of taxpayer money. And I also know some good people in FEMA.

While the government can't solve all problems, the same is true with markets. And then what are we left with? Bill Gates to bail us out? No thanks.

My problem with professional politicians is that they don't create any value. They aren't held to any standard other than a popularity contest. Some local politicians in my area do nothing for years and somehow get re-elected, same with some on the US level. So that automatically creates inefficiencies IMO. So that's why I'm sort of a fan of your lottery system - it would be a safeguard against folks who want use the authority of office for the wrong reasons.
I think the bigger problem with professional politicians is that they completely lose touch of why they are there and who they represent to begin with.

Case and point: Cali Gov. Gavin Newsom holding a birthday party at the French Laundry restaurant while telling everyone to cancel Thanksgiving because of COVID. Now I ain't the moralizing type who jumps on personal decisions to call out hypocrites the way, say, Fox News does. (Which, IMO, seems like the Republican version of cancel culture, IMO.) But really, dude? Are you that dense and stupid as to not think any of that through? How it looks to the message you send to the sense you are in this with anybody else?

The challenge with professional politicians is that getting reelected is their primary goal. I can't think of many politicians who would rather do the right thing and not get reelected, which is the completely wrong set of priorities we need.

As for the problems with the lottery system? 1. It's not democracy (nobody really gets to vote), 2. like jury duty a lot of people really have no business in a position of authority (and jury selection criteria applied to politicians is a whole other can of worms), etc...
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
52,534
In Wisconsin, there were 92,550 MORE votes for Republican House Seats than Democratic, BUT 20,540 LESS votes for Trump than Biden.
That's not so strange.
In 2016, Trump won Wisconsin by 23k, but the Republicans won the Senate elections by 100k. Around 3m people voted both for president and Senate, from which I can conclude that many who voted Republican, did not vote for the Republican presidential candidate.
Since the Republican candidate in 2020 was an extremely controversial president of the USA, I can only assume that even more people who vote Republican decided not to vote for Trump. The difference between President/Senate votes in Wisconsin for the Republicans in 2016 was 77K and now it's 110k. Not a huge difference considering everything about Trump in the last 4 years.

I was under the impression that many Americans tend to vote for one party in the Senate and for the other party's candidate in the presidential elections. Am I wrong?
 

Siamak

╭∩╮( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╭∩╮
Aug 13, 2013
15,009
That's not so strange.
In 2016, Trump won Wisconsin by 23k, but the Republicans won the Senate elections by 100k. Around 3m people voted both for president and Senate, from which I can conclude that many who voted Republican, did not vote for the Republican presidential candidate.
Since the Republican candidate in 2020 was an extremely controversial president of the USA, I can only assume that even more people who vote Republican decided not to vote for Trump. The difference between President/Senate votes in Wisconsin for the Republicans in 2016 was 77K and now it's 110k. Not a huge difference considering everything about Trump in the last 4 years.

I was under the impression that many Americans tend to vote for one party in the Senate and for the other party's candidate in the presidential elections. Am I wrong?
are you saying people can vote pluralistically?
anyway That means nothing many people do not vote down the party line.
 

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
52,534
are you saying people can vote pluralistically?
anyway That means nothing many people do not vote down the party line.
I am saying that there were many people who voted for the Republican candidate in the Senate, but for Biden in the presidential election. Or voted Trump for president, but the Democratic candidate in the Senate. I'd guess that in a developed country, the percentage of such people is much higher than elsewhere.
I found myself voting in local elections for a mayor coming from one party, but for the municipality council, I voted the other party.
 

Siamak

╭∩╮( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)╭∩╮
Aug 13, 2013
15,009
yeah, you can vote for as many different parties as are on the ballot
You’re probably right. I’m sure all the riots convinced people to vote against Trump after the tyrannical manner in how he handled them. so at this case I really don't think it's something to look into. Could be, but doubtful.
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,252
You’re probably right. I’m sure all the riots convinced people to vote against Trump after the tyrannical manner in how he handled them. so at this case I really don't think it's something to look into. Could be, but doubtful.
it’s hard to understand, especially since you guys know the election results weeks before you vote
 
Jun 6, 2015
11,387
muh feeling and emotion survey
muh waycisms

These polls only serve the purpose to evaluate how well the media apparatus is working which it clearly does. Here comes the real world reality check:

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv19_sum.pdf
Dismissing scientific polling on social issues is quite ignorant. It's a widely used method in social sciences because there's quite a lot of value in actually knowing how the population feels. Of course it's also important to understand why they feel that way (you can use polling for this as well or simply look at the quantitative data). Those polling numbers would likely be much worse today as well thanks to recent high profile police brutality cases. Below more on that if you're interested.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7331505/
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z
 
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