'Murica! (223 Viewers)

[Ocelot]

I think the Europeans raise good points though. Big or small, it's probably better to have good government over bad government. At the moment our government is pretty terrible.

If we don't agree on that, the disagreements go even further than I thought

 

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[Enron]

If we don't agree on that, the disagreements go even further than I thought

Yeah, I guess what I mean is whether we have big government or small government I think it would still be bad government in this moment.

 

[Hust]

How much do you spend on foreign aid?

http://beta.foreignassistance.gov/

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I think the Europeans raise good points though. Big or small, it's probably better to have good government over bad government. At the moment our government is pretty terrible.

its better to have small & better gov

 

[Enron]

http://beta.foreignassistance.gov/

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its better to have small & better gov

Depends on the individual Cam.

 

[icemaη]

http://beta.foreignassistance.gov/

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its better to have small & better gov

If I've my numbers right, that's about 1-1.5% of your budget? We spend about 2% of our budget on foreign aid. I guess we are a rich country now

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Depends on the individual Cam.

I don't mind paying taxes at all. The rest of the folks around me think I'm crazy.

 

[Hust]

Depends on the individual Cam.

True. I don't disagree.

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I don't mind paying taxes at all. The rest of the folks around me think I'm crazy.

I don't mind paying taxes either, but, the question is how much and what its used for.

 

[icemaη]

True. I don't disagree.

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I don't mind paying taxes either, but, the question is how much and what its used for.

I don't mind paying high taxes Lesser military spend and more healthcare, education and infrastructure.

 

[Hust]

If I've my numbers right, that's about 1-1.5% of your budget? We spend about 2% of our budget on foreign aid. I guess we are a rich country now

Apparently the federal budget for 2015 was 3.8 trillion.

Shave a little off the defense and foreign aid budgets and you got a serious long term solution to improve education.

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I don't mind paying high taxes Lesser military spend and more healthcare, education and infrastructure.

Where do you live?

 

[icemaη]

Apparently the federal budget for 2015 was 3.8 trillion.

Shave a little off the defense and foreign aid budgets and you got a serious long term solution to improve education.

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Where do you live?

You know where I live.

 

[Hust]

You know where I live.

India? At least thats where I think you live unless you moved.

 

[Bjerknes]

I think I've noticed one very major reasons for many of our disagreements. You think (correct me if I'm wrong), that the US is already a big government state with a large welfare state. Since that doesn't really work in many aspects, you reject the idea of a larger welfare state and more government influence in general.

However, in my opinion, the US has a relatively small welfare state for a developed country. Naturally I might add, since taxes are significantly lower, and the military spending is miles above any other developed country, even relatively speaking, so there can't really be any comparetively large welfare programs. In addition, a lot of the programs are organized rather ineffectively (leading you to believe, somewhat understandably, that welfare programs have to be inefficient by default), and the tax system is rather inequitable and in my opinon unjust, especially due to various loopholes and tax brakes for the very rich, leading to the, from your part highly criticised, situation where the middleclass has to bear a disproportionally large part of the tax burden (keep in mind that this is one of the main gripes of the left (that doesn't really prominently exist on the US American political stage, bar maybe Sanders recently)).

And to close the circle to your first sentence in the quoted post, the US simply does not have a welfare state that does any justice to its level of development, and that's exactly the source of many problems. If you on the hand believe that the US already has a large welfare state, and these problems still exist, then we don't disagree on whether the current programs are good or not (we both think they're not), but in my opinion they're simply woefully insufficient, and even if they're inefficient at times, things would be worse overall without them.

And again, "big government" on it's own is neither good or bad, it can be functional/dysfunctional, corrupt/clean, oppressive/liberal (in terms of civil liberties). But I very strongly believe that a big government that works well is the only way that broad wealth for the whole population can be achieved. And so far, it's the only way it has been achieved in history.



Not to mention that the current US health care system is extremely ineffective and among the most expensive (maybe even the most expensive, don't remember exactly) in the world.

Well, somebody would have to pay for additional welfare programs. That either means spending more tax dollars or borrowing more, which is already a problem for us. Sure, we spend far too heavily on defense, but even if we eliminate that entirely, we will still be running deficits year over year. Social programs and healthcare already comprise approximately 50% of the tax income, and this will only continue to increase. We need to reduce defense spending because we essentially need to cut our spending half, but we can't just reallocate this portion of the budget to welfare programs. We're already maxed out.

To me, we should be cutting defense spending in half and finding other areas to cut. You're right, some of the social programs are inefficient, but therein lies the problem with these programs to begin with. I'd rather see tax cuts to all, a reduction in spending, and the Fed being abolished so interest rates can head back to the real equilibrium rate, thus creating the base for capital formation and eventually job creation. The tax code is far too difficult to even comprehend on an individual level, let alone a corporate level. So that needs to be drastically changed and simplified so everyone can have a decent understanding. From there, we can turn some things around.

Defense spending also brings in a lot of jobs. Whether you like our motives or not is one thing, but they do bring a lot of well paying jobs whether you have a masters degree or high level IT certifications. It's a competitive industry.

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Yurop

But Cam, many of these defense jobs are completely worthless and are built on the security theatre we have in the states. The Dulles Greenway is just lined with hundreds of companies doing contracting work making bank based on the supposed terror threat and arms trade alone. Some companies such as Lockheed actually create and sell products, which is fine, but others are essentially security and consulting firms (service-based) which don't create anything. That's why their growth isn't real growth in my view, and a lot of this defense spending can actually be cut. It will suck for some areas like McLean and Reston, but they really aren't needed.

Yeah, I guess what I mean is whether we have big government or small government I think it would still be bad government in this moment.

But with small government, at least you don't run the risk of turning into Greece or Argentina -- even if it is bad.

 

[icemaη]

India? At least thats where I think you live unless you moved.

Yup. Still in the third world

 

[Hust]

Yup. Still in the third world

Ok, I thought so that's why I asked. That brings me to my next point, your national situation is very different than ours but we still partially agree.

 

[icemaη]

Ok, I thought so that's why I asked. That brings me to my next point, your national situation is very different than ours but we still partially agree.

It is very different. Considering that we are trying to emulate success by striking a balance between the American and European way of running a government, I'm very interested in how things work on the other side of the ocean.

 

[Seven]

I think the Europeans raise good points though. Big or small, it's probably better to have good government over bad government. At the moment our government is pretty terrible.

The big issue here is of course that we are all a bit paranoid towards the government. And I definitely get that, I am too. But the way I see it the government can actually do a world of good if taxes are well spent. And universal healthcare is so basic that I am shocked that this is not a given in developed countries. Each time people have to pay a small amount of money on their medical bills they are outraged here..

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Well, somebody would have to pay for additional welfare programs. That either means spending more tax dollars or borrowing more, which is already a problem for us. Sure, we spend far too heavily on defense, but even if we eliminate that entirely, we will still be running deficits year over year. Social programs and healthcare already comprise approximately 50% of the tax income, and this will only continue to increase. We need to reduce defense spending because we essentially need to cut our spending half, but we can't just reallocate this portion of the budget to welfare programs. We're already maxed out.

To me, we should be cutting defense spending in half and finding other areas to cut. You're right, some of the social programs are inefficient, but therein lies the problem with these programs to begin with. I'd rather see tax cuts to all, a reduction in spending, and the Fed being abolished so interest rates can head back to the real equilibrium rate, thus creating the base for capital formation and eventually job creation. The tax code is far too difficult to even comprehend on an individual level, let alone a corporate level. So that needs to be drastically changed and simplified so everyone can have a decent understanding. From there, we can turn some things around.



But Cam, many of these defense jobs are completely worthless and are built on the security theatre we have in the states. The Dulles Greenway is just lined with hundreds of companies doing contracting work making bank based on the supposed terror threat and arms trade alone. Some companies such as Lockheed actually create and sell products, which is fine, but others are essentially security and consulting firms (service-based) which don't create anything. That's why their growth isn't real growth in my view, and a lot of this defense spending can actually be cut. It will suck for some areas like McLean and Reston, but they really aren't needed.



But with small government, at least you don't run the risk of turning into Greece or Argentina -- even if it is bad.

Iceland disagrees.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

I think the Europeans raise good points though. Big or small, it's probably better to have good government over bad government. At the moment our government is pretty terrible.

then it's better if it's small to limit the damage it can cause

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I don't mind paying taxes at all. The rest of the folks around me think I'm crazy.

and some people didnt mind being slaves in all seriousness, some cultures hold the view of the government as the big powerful unit which dictates and assumes the choices for everyone. But in the US, it is an evil that needs to be curbed to the max imo

 

[Seven]

then it's better if it's small to limit the damage it can cause

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and some people didnt mind being slaves in all seriousness, some cultures hold the view of the government as the big powerful unit which dictates and assumes the choices for everyone. But in the US, it is an evil that needs to be curbed to the max imo

No. The government exists because it has duties:
- assure safety, both internally and externally,
- assure a humane existence for those who cannot help themselves,
- provide people with the possibility to make something of themselves..

It is not about dictating anything. Ironically the US now also has a government that spies far more on its citizens than any European government.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

No. The government exists because it has duties:
- assure safety, both internally and externally,
- assure a humane existence for those who cannot help themselves,
- provide people with the possibility to make something of themselves..

It is not about dictating anything. Ironically the US now also has a government that spies far more on its citizens than any European government.

all the above is done at community, city, and state levels.

keep your federal bank and government

 

[Seven]

all the above is done at community, city, and state levels.

keep your federal bank and government

Depends on your country's structure. And government is government, whether it be at city. State or federal level.

 

[Bjerknes]

No. The government exists because it has duties:
- assure safety, both internally and externally,
- assure a humane existence for those who cannot help themselves,
- provide people with the possibility to make something of themselves..

It is not about dictating anything. Ironically the US now also has a government that spies far more on its citizens than any European government.

And guess what... our government does ZERO of that!

Spies on our own citizens, arms "moderate" Jihadists who eventually become extremists, ruins the economy while propping up Wall Street, locks people up for years just for drug offenses...

X is right, a lot of this should be done at a more local level.