Messi vs C.Ronaldo (41 Viewers)

[JuveJay]

Looks like we both failed math

Brazil - 3
Uruguay - 9
Colombia - 15
Chile - 19
Paraguay - 35
Ecuador - 53
Bolivia - 81

The median here is Chile, who are ranked 19th.

The median ranking for Ronaldo’s opponents at Euro 2016 was 26.

Ronaldo only had good games against Hungary (20) and Wales (26). Portugal won against France without him.

Messi was excellent in every game but the final, including fantastic performances against Uruguay (9), Chile (19) and Colombia (15).

Messi’s international trophy is clear tbh.

Ok, I wasn't sure of your first language or figures so presumed you meant the mean ranking, which is 35 (based on those numbers). Using a median is a bit strange - what if they played nations ranked 15, 24, 25, 150 and 180 in the world, does 25 seem a fair reflection of difficulty? Also, FIFA rankings are pretty garbage at the best of times. On what planet was Austria from 2016 the 10th best team in the world lol?

There are more stronger teams in Europe than there are in South America, but that's obvious with more countries. I'm not sure of the general point you are making but it seems clear that Portugal didn't meet a lot of the stronger nations, other than Croatia and France, which can happen in a tournament (see England in this Euros).

The way I look at it it's a surprise that Argentina and Brazil don't win the Copa America every tournament, or at least most of them, given their size and player pool in comparison to challenging countries like Uruguay, Colombia or Chile. So for Messi to have won one Copa America is not a huge achievement at his age. Yes it's a team sport, but let's not pretend that he hasn't had his fair share of international flops.

 

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[Nedved96]

Ok, I wasn't sure of your first language or figures so presumed you meant the mean ranking, which is 35 (based on those numbers). Using a median is a bit strange - what if they played nations ranked 15, 24, 25, 150 and 180 in the world, does 25 seem a fair reflection of difficulty? Also, FIFA rankings are pretty garbage at the best of times. On what planet was Austria from 2016 the 10th best team in the world lol?

I tried to stick to FIFA rankings because they are at least somewhat objective. Otherwise we have nothing left but our subjective measurements of what does or does not make a good team/opponent.

Medians are more reliable than means because they are less susceptible to outliers. Imagine if you play in an international tournament against teams that are ranked 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 180. Do you think that 33 is an accurate reflection of the difficulty you faced? Of course every method has flaws.

There are more stronger teams in Europe than there are in South America, but that's obvious with more countries. I'm not sure of the general point you are making but it seems clear that Portugal didn't meet a lot of the stronger nations, other than Croatia and France, which can happen in a tournament (see England in this Euros).

This is my main problem with those who rate Portugal 2016 as some kind of heroic achievement.

The Euros have largely been a complete joke ever since the new design was introduced in 2016. Now a bunch of third place teams make it through the groups, and in both 2016 and 2021 we had one side of the bracket that was miles stronger than the other.

Portugal had a stupid amount of dumb luck that helped them win 2016. They had an easy group and somehow finished 3rd in it. Then by underperforming in their group, they end up on the easy side of the bracket. They play Poland, Croatia, and Wales (they were favourites against all of them). Then they reach the final against France, which they somehow win without CR7.

On paper, Portugal winning the Euros sounds very impressive. But when you look at how it actually played out, it wasn’t amazing at all really.

Now look at the individual performances. Look at how CR7 played against Hungary, Iceland, Austria, Poland, Croatia, and Wales. Now compare that to how Messi played at the Copa America against similar opponents. If we are objective here, we all know who played better.

 

[Arcticdaly]

Portugal never won a major trophy ever until Ronaldo came along thats just fact. Messi winning a cup where he's team is top 2 favourites to win it every year and it was its 4th try in 6 years Is nothing compared to that. Maybe he if had if won the copa 5 or 6 times then maybe we talk but once ? Ronaldo is clear, accept it neddy and bow down to the goat.

 

[Nedved96]

Portugal never won a major trophy ever until Ronaldo came along thats just fact. Messi winning a cup where he's team is top 2 favourites to win it every year and it was its 4th try in 6 years Is nothing compared to that. Maybe he if had if won the copa 5 or 6 times then maybe we talk but once ? Ronaldo is clear, accept it neddy and bow down to the goat.

Unfortunately football is a team sport and I judge players by individual performances.

 

[Cerval]

Unfortunately football is a team sport and I judge players by individual performances.

Would have been a nice comparison if Cristiano played 4 Euros in 6 years

 

[Nedved96]

Would have been a nice comparison if Cristiano played 4 Euros in 6 years

Cristiano has played in 5 Euros. Messi has played in 6 Copas. Not a significant difference.

 

[james95]

Ronaldo only had good games against Hungary (20) and Wales (26). Portugal won against France without him.

Argentina also won against Brazil without Messi in truth.

 

[Elvin]

Cristiano has played in 5 Euros. Messi has played in 6 Copas. Not a significant difference.

Normally, Messi would play 3 Copas. But they decided: hey, let's hold one almost every year.

 

[james95]

Cristiano has played in 5 Euros. Messi has played in 6 Copas. Not a significant difference.

Dumb comment. Ronaldo played in 5 euros over the span of 17 (!) years which means the team, players and coaches have changed radically over that period of time. Messi played 4 of his 6 copas in 5 years meaning the team and level of opposition didn’t change as much. It’s not the same at all. Ronaldo playing for his country over that span of time in 5 different editions of the competition is actually unprecedented.

 

[Nedved96]

Dumb comment. Ronaldo played in 5 euros over the span of 17 (!) years which means the team, players and coaches have changed radically over that period of time. Messi played 4 of his 6 copas in 5 years meaning the team and level of opposition didn’t change as much. It’s not the same at all. Ronaldo playing for his country over that span of time in 5 different editions of the competition is actually unprecedented.

Level of opposition doesn’t really matter in this debate because in the Euros that Portugal won, they somehow (through shear dumb luck) managed to dodge every top European country until the final. They did this by finishing 3rd in their group which, in previous years, would have put you out of the competition.

And I’m not surprised that no one has a response to the individual statistics of Messi and Ronaldo in the two tournaments they’ve won.

34 dribbles and 21 key passes is just ridiculous. Even if Messi scored only 10 goals per season, he’d still be one of the best players ever. That’s how good he is. I can’t say the same about CR7.

 

[Cerval]

Both of them are no GOAT. Pointless debate. Actually this debate is a football world equivalent to a tumor.

 

[Stevie]

I hate when people compare them. It's just down to personal preference as they both have different styles. Don't think there is really a right or wrong answer.

Personally Del Piero is my favourite player whether he's on their level or not it doesn't matter because it's just my personal preference that I won't try and force on other people.

 

[Claudio Gentile]

For some reason folks like to split hairs on 2 goats. I’ll never understand why. We are privileged to watch these 2 phenomena do their thing

 

[Elvin]

For some reason folks like to split hairs on 2 goats. I’ll never understand why. We are privileged to watch these 2 phenomena do their thing

It's the nature of sports/competition, there needs to be the best. That's the whole point of sports.

This debate is beautiful. I don't understand people who get annoyed by it.

"Let's all enjoy both of them in perfect harmony, hand-in-hand". I say, GTFO with this bullshit


PS Cristiano is the GOAT!

 

[james95]

Level of opposition doesn’t really matter in this debate because in the Euros that Portugal won, they somehow (through shear dumb luck) managed to dodge every top European country until the final. They did this by finishing 3rd in their group which, in previous years, would have put you out of the competition.

The teams the faced were still stronger on average than what Argentina faced this year. They also faced France in the final who are much better than current Brazil.

 

[Juve92]

Why are ppl taking him seriously? I mean, you don't receive 2000+ dislikes without a reason..

 

[Strickland]

It's the nature of sports/competition, there needs to be the best. That's the whole point of sports.

This debate is beautiful. I don't understand people who get annoyed by it.

"Let's all enjoy both of them in perfect harmony, hand-in-hand". I say, GTFO with this bullshit

PS Cristiano is the GOAT!

My take is that football is a team sport and there is no overall GOAT, individuals may decide games, but teams win trophies.

Just take a look at Juve in Europe before and after we signed Mr CL or how Barca with Messi has fluctuated from brilliant to poor based on how the team was constructed. I wouldn't blame either for the recent misfortunes of Juve or Barca, but I also wouldn't praise them as having won all the CL's all on their own with Real Madrid and Barca, one guy can't do that.

 

[Nedved96]

Why are ppl taking him seriously? I mean, you don't receive 2000+ dislikes without a reason..

1500 are them are from the mentally disabled man known as Juve92

I will never forget when you gave me 1200 dislikes in a single night because I insulted you. That requires some serious mental illness

 

[Juve92]

Your parents raised you well

 

[Nedved96]

The teams the faced were still stronger on average than what Argentina faced this year.

You are free to believe this but unfortunately there isn't any empirical evidence to back it up. The FIFA rankings and ELO rankings both suggest otherwise (the data suggests a similarly difficult path or slightly more difficult for Argentina).

They also faced France in the final who are much better than current Brazil.

This claim is disputable, but even if it is true, how exactly does that help Ronaldo's case?

He did not play in the final and Portugal beat a very strong France team without him.

Does that not, if anything, imply that CR7's supporting cast was underrated?