Messi vs C.Ronaldo (59 Viewers)

[Afghan_juventus]

Can you please tell me why do you include pele as a potential all time great? I have never understood the hype with him.
He played in a no offside, no tactics time and never in Europe. Could you imagine a guy like r9, cr7, or messi in that time.
If this guys scored almost 700 in our time , in pelle's era i think they would score 2000.



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Hmm isn't there being no offside rule during Pele's time a myth? I thought there was the offside rule but just a bit different. In regards to him not playing in Europe, at his time the standards of his Brazilian league was around the same as Europe's top leagues from what i've heard and he proved himself at the highest level of all, the world cup.

We have judge players based on the eras in which they played. You could say players of today are more fit and tactically aware, however you have to keep in mind if CR7 or Messi were playing in Pele's era they would not have all this modern science or tactics to help them improve. We would see a different Ronaldo and different Messi as well. Also keep in mind during Pele's era the defenders were far more aggressive, the ball was different, posts were square, and the pitches were shit.

Here's a nice Youtube channel dedicated to Pele:

 

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[ColloRosso]

All the GREAT footballers in history left their mark with legendary performances at the top of international football.

Pele, Platini, Cruyff, Maradona all have legendary performances at either a world cup, euros, or copa america. Along with fantastic club careers.

Messi falls short of this group due to his failures at the international level.... Even if he wins the next copa he's just had too many failures at international level and did not prove himself outside of Barca.

For me personally he is tier 2 alongside Zico, CR7, R9, Zidane etc

Also just to be clear this is not some revelation I've had after Messi was ko'd from this Copa America. This has always been my stance and you can look through my old posts to confirm. However, this latest set of failures have only reinforced my position and have pretty much closed the door in my eyes for Messi to join those 4 GOATS.

Maybe if he has a legendary 2022 world cup that could change, but that seems rather unlikely.

 

[Cerval]

In what world is Zidane tier 2?

 

[Post Ironic]

In what world is Zidane tier 2?

It’s an Afghan world, and we’re all just visitors.

 

[ALC]

How are Ronaldo 9 and CR7 tier 2 as well?

 

[s4tch]

In what world is Zidane tier 2?

How are Ronaldo 9 and CR7 tier 2 as well?

zidane basically carried france to a world cup and a european cup, scored 2 in a world cup final. cr7 won the euros and while he missed most of the final due to injury, he still was a leader at the sidelines. ronaldo won a world cup, was the top scorer, got a trophy for the best player of the tournament, scored 2 in the final too.

incredible stuff.

 

[Afghan_juventus]

How is this bait?

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zidane basically carried france to a world cup and a european cup, scored 2 in a world cup final. cr7 won the euros and while he missed most of the final due to injury, he still was a leader at the sidelines. ronaldo won a world cup, was the top scorer, got a trophy for the best player of the tournament, scored 2 in the final too.

incredible stuff.

Zidane carried France in the 98 world cup? That's a very unusual opinion. He definitely had a great final but most viewed Thuram as France's best player that World Cup.

Anyways these are all great achievements you listed out and great players, but imo they never reached the level of the 4 players which I listed in tier 1 (Maradona, Platini, Pele, and Cruyff).

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In what world is Zidane tier 2?

How are Ronaldo 9 and CR7 tier 2 as well?

Great players but I just don't consider them at the same level of the 4 at tier 1 (Pele, Maradona, Cruff, and Platini). Ofc they are very close but I just like to separate those 4. Also keep in mind that tier 2 isn't a bad thing lol. These guys are all still in my top 10.

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It’s an Afghan world, and we’re all just visitors.

 

[JuvXOXO]

All the GREAT footballers in history left their mark with legendary performances at the top of international football.

Pele, Platini, Cruyff, Maradona all have legendary performances at either a world cup, euros, or copa america. Along with fantastic club careers.

Messi falls short of this group due to his failures at the international level.... Even if he wins the next copa he's just had too many failures at international level and did not prove himself outside of Barca.

For me personally he is tier 2 alongside Zico, CR7, R9, Zidane etc

Also just to be clear this is not some revelation I've had after Messi was ko'd from this Copa America. This has always been my stance and you can look through my old posts to confirm. However, this latest set of failures have only reinforced my position and have pretty much closed the door in my eyes for Messi to join those 4 GOATS.

Maybe if he has a legendary 2022 world cup that could change, but that seems rather unlikely.

Messi and Ronaldo have both been disappointing at international level. Messi gets his a lot of criticism for his, but it always cracks me up when fanboys act like Ronaldo has had some sort of legendary international career. He's played in 8 major tournaments and has only scored 3 knockout goals across all of them. You can point to things that Portugal has achieved as a team, but neither Ronaldo or Messi have the individual moments in big international matches that past greats did. Mbappe already surpassed both of their international careers before he even turned 20.

 

[ColloRosso]

Messi and Ronaldo have both been disappointing at international level. Messi gets his a lot of criticism for his, but it always cracks me up when fanboys act like Ronaldo has had some sort of legendary international career. He's played in 8 major tournaments and has only scored 3 knockout goals across all of them. You can point to things that Portugal has achieved as a team, but neither Ronaldo or Messi have the individual moments in big international matches that past greats did. Mbappe already surpassed both of their international careers before he even turned 20.

Portugal titles without Ronaldo: 0
Portugal titles with Ronaldo: 2


Argentina titles without Messi: 18
Argentina titles with Messi: 0


Now go back to BarcaForum again.

 

[JuvXOXO]

Portugal titles without Ronaldo: 0
Portugal titles with Ronaldo: 2


Argentina titles without Messi: 18
Argentina titles with Messi: 0


Now go back to BarcaForum again.

You're proving my point. I said in my post that "you can point to things Portugal achieved as a team" which is all your comment does. When did Nations League become a major tournament either lol? The fact that Ronaldo didn't bother playing until the semifinals tells the story.

That last sentence is also hilariously ironic from someone who just finished supporting Real Madrid for 9 years

 

[ColloRosso]

You're proving my point. I said in my post that "you can point to things Portugal achieved as a team" which is all your comment does. When did Nations League become a major tournament either lol? The fact that Ronaldo didn't bother playing until the semifinals tells the story.

That last sentence is also hilariously ironic from someone who just finished supporting Real Madrid for 9 years

Since when it is not? Ronaldo only joined in the Semis to carry the team again, as usual. Something that Messi has never done, and never will.


Ronaldo only joined in the Semis also because he joined a new team and needed to adapt. Again, something that Messi has never done, and never will.

 

[JuvXOXO]

Since when it is not? Ronaldo only joined in the Semis to carry the team again, as usual. Something that Messi has never done, and never will.


Ronaldo only joined in the Semis also because he joined a new team and needed to adapt. Again, something that Messi has never done, and never will.

1. Playing a few matches for Portugal doesn't magically stop him from "adapting"

2. If Nations League was this all important tournament, he would have played even if there was a very slight slowdown of his adaptation with Juventus.

 

[duranfj]

Can you please tell me why do you include pele as a potential all time great? I have never understood the hype with him.
He played in a no offside, no tactics time and never in Europe. Could you imagine a guy like r9, cr7, or messi in that time.
If this guys scored almost 700 in our time , in pelle's era i think they would score 2000.



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Cuz he won the WC once, not wait, twice, not wait, three times and the only time he didn't get it he was broken in pieces

Even if u watch some of the games when the color tv started u would see how brutal were the game by then and it was way harder before that

Messi wouldn't be able to succeed in anyway, R9 were too fragile so it's a not for him aswel, only CR7 would succeed IMO cuz the guy is a monster

 

[ColloRosso]

1. Playing a few matches for Portugal doesn't magically stop him from "adapting"

2. If Nations League was this all important tournament, he would have played even if there was a very slight slowdown of his adaptation with Juventus.

Which part of he is already 34 you don't understand?


Troll level 1/10


Very poor.

 

[JuvXOXO]

Cuz he won the WC once, not wait, twice, not wait, three times and the only time he didn't get it he was broken in pieces

Even if u watch some of the games when the color tv started u would see how brutal were the game by then and it was way harder before that

Messi wouldn't be able to succeed in anyway, R9 were too fragile so it's a not for him aswel, only CR7 would succeed IMO cuz the guy is a monster

It's always funny how Pele was unanimously considered among the greatest by everyone who followed him at the time, but now teenage Messi/Ronaldo have suddenly figured out that he's completely overrated and a fraud.

 

[Pegi]

Ronaldo's Portugal career being a dissapointment? Damn, he has set the standards so high that being the 2nd highest goalscorer in whole international football is being a dissapointment. He also has scored 9 goals in the EURO finals, which is tied for most with Platini. Those 8 times he has played in major tournaments is 2 more than Portugal played before Ronaldo, and that's since 1934. There was Eusebio back in 60/70s, then a big slump and the golden generation in early 2000s to till like 2008, when most of them retired and Ronaldo was only 22-23 during that time, with all the prime years of him coming. 2008-2010-2012 was all about Spain's golden generation and like 2014 WC, Portugal played that do or die qualifier game against sweden for a WC spot, 2 ties and score was 4-2, Zlatan scoring both of Sweden's goals and who else than Ronaldo scoring all 4 for Portugal. 2014 Ronaldo was injuried, it was never certain he would even make there and the fact is, that Portugal squad was never competent enough to win that tournament anyways. 2012 was Probably the best tournament Ronaldo has ever played for Portugal, but then again those were the Spanish times in all international football. So, from like 2008 to like 2016, Portugal was never competent enough to win anything big, but they pulled off that 2016 after Spain's time was over by a miracle and Ronaldo contributed 66% of the goals for Portugal, so i wouldn't necessarily call that a bad tournament for a 31yr old player. Now in 2019, i think Portugal has the very good shot at EURO 2020, i wouldn't even call them underdogs anymore since they got all that talent playing all over the big clubs, having GOAT in their team with B. Silva, Joao Felix, Ruben Neves, Carvalho etc and in Defense, they have Ruben Dias etc coming up so they're pretty much a contender, if not one of the favourites.

Messi and Argentina is whole different story. they're 2 time World cup winners, they have what like 15 Copas on their belt. They have whole different tradition, they have way more "recent" success than Portugal did before Ronaldo and therefore, it would be logical to actually expect them being on the run for the gold. On top of that, they have had way better squads past these years except now, i'd rather have Portugal squad than current argentine squad and that's first time in 15 years. Messi's international career hasn't been nothing but a big dissapointment, i don't even need to go there.


Talking about Mbappe surpassing both of their international careers is just pure idiotism. He happened to be part of France's Golden generation or can you even say "golden generation" when it comes to these absolute big nations in football, but France already reached 2016 EURO final without Mbappe and then 2018 WC with him and things ain't looking bad for them just by looking the core of that team so it might end up them winning 2020 EURO as well. It's absurd to expect these so called smaller nations to actually pull off a win in the WC or even EUROS and seriously, as a guy from Finland i'd not be happier than seeing my country even qualifying for one EURO or WC in my lifetime so, that's how tough it is for these smaller nations.


About GOAT tiers in my lifetime because im not going to rank something i haven't seen other than Youtube:

Tier 1. Cr7
Tier 2. Zidane, Brazil Ronaldo, Messi, Ronaldinho etc.

 

[Afghan_juventus]

Messi and Ronaldo have both been disappointing at international level. Messi gets his a lot of criticism for his, but it always cracks me up when fanboys act like Ronaldo has had some sort of legendary international career. He's played in 8 major tournaments and has only scored 3 knockout goals across all of them. You can point to things that Portugal has achieved as a team, but neither Ronaldo or Messi have the individual moments in big international matches that past greats did. Mbappe already surpassed both of their international careers before he even turned 20.

Fanboyism when it comes to the rating of Ronaldo has reached an absurd level since 2016. They notion that he "carried Portugal" in the 2016 Euros or the best player at the tourney is absolutely absurd and just plain out revisionist when you take into account that Portugal made it through the KO rounds of the back of great defensive performances and Griezmann overall far superior performances earning him the golden ball. I mean the man was credited for Portugal's final win vs France due to antics on the sideline. Just ridiculous.
I agree with your assessment of Messi and Ronaldo's international careers not being up to par, although I would place Ronaldo ahead in that regard just because he has a few great performances against top tier opposition or at the highest level (2012 vs Netherlands and 2018 vs Spain come to mind) and does have trophies to go along with it. But not enough to have an international career at the same level of Luis Suarez or Diego Forlan let alone the tier 1 legendary intl careers of Pele, Maradona, Zidane, R9 etc.

 

[ColloRosso]

Fanboyism when it comes to the rating of Ronaldo has reached an absurd level since 2016. They notion that he "carried Portugal" in the 2016 Euros or the best player at the tourney is absolutely absurd and just plain out revisionist when you take into account that Portugal made it through the KO rounds of the back of great defensive performances and Griezmann overall far superior performances earning him the golden ball. I mean the man was credited for Portugal's final win vs France due to antics on the sideline. Just ridiculous.
I agree with your assessment of Messi and Ronaldo's international careers not being up to par, although I would place Ronaldo ahead in that regard just because he has a few great performances against top tier opposition or at the highest level (2012 vs Netherlands and 2018 vs Spain come to mind) and does have trophies to go along with it. But not enough to have an international career at the same level of Luis Suarez or Diego Forlan let alone the tier 1 legendary intl careers of Pele, Maradona, Zidane, R9 etc.

Ah so you were talking intl level. Ok, that makes sense now. Btw what is Garrincha tier level?

 

[campionesidd]

I think Messi and Cristiano are in the same tier, for the record. Even though Cristiano edges it for his more diverse accomplishments.
Tier 1: Messi, Cristiano, Maradona, Pele
Tier 2: Gerd Muller, Ronaldo, Zidane

 

[Arcticdaly]

Fanboyism when it comes to the rating of Ronaldo has reached an absurd level since 2016. They notion that he "carried Portugal" in the 2016 Euros or the best player at the tourney is absolutely absurd and just plain out revisionist when you take into account that Portugal made it through the KO rounds of the back of great defensive performances and Griezmann overall far superior performances earning him the golden ball. I mean the man was credited for Portugal's final win vs France due to antics on the sideline. Just ridiculous.
I agree with your assessment of Messi and Ronaldo's international careers not being up to par, although I would place Ronaldo ahead in that regard just because he has a few great performances against top tier opposition or at the highest level (2012 vs Netherlands and 2018 vs Spain come to mind) and does have trophies to go along with it. But not enough to have an international career at the same level of Luis Suarez or Diego Forlan let alone the tier 1 legendary intl careers of Pele, Maradona, Zidane, R9 etc.

No one said he carried them but he had like 3 brilliant goals in key moments 3 assists and was the match winner in the semi final of the euros with a stunning header and a assist he then got injured after 15 mins and never got to play the final. He didnt sulk or vanish instead he lead from the sidelines and pushed hes team on.Thats more than anything messi done in that world cup final run where he didnt do a thing in any of the knockrounds,played the whole final and missed a sitter that he would score blindfolded 9 times out of 10 for barcelona. Messi has played 4 finals and lost every single one of them playing the whole match and not even scoring one goal which was all that was needed. Hes plays the copa like every year which is third a rate competition and still cant win one of them despite messi playing with far better players then the rubbish ronaldo has had most hes NT career.