Matthijs de Ligt (17 Viewers)

duranfj

Senior Member
Jul 30, 2015
6,789
Van Basten said: De Ligt got unlucky with the injury of Chiellini. Imo he’d learn more with Chiellini next to him instead of Bonucci. Chiellini is more a team player than Bonucci, and he’s more able to organize the defense really well. Bonucci doesnt do that. Bonucci defends his own zone, but doesn’t help out a lot. Right now De Ligt is expected do organize the defense on his own. I’ve seen Juventus making a lot of mistakes defensively and even De Ligt has his debt in it. The Serie A nowadays is less strong than in the 90’s and 00’s, because of that he’d learn more if he’d play in a stronger competition, at teams as Barca, Real Madrid or City. At this moment I don’t see a stronger De Ligt than last year (he said this after the interviewer mentioned that De Ligt nowadays wins penalties and fakes injuries, and he claimed that he didn’t do that at Ajax. Note: it’s a compliment, as Chiellini, Bonucci etc al use those smart ‘tricks’ to give a striker a yellow card, win a free kick etc).
Serie A is clearly under EPL and La Liga but it's improving a lot IMO. Now, I disagree 100% with that milanist dutch guy cuz De Ligt came here to defend and until Sarriball turn on, we have one of the best defense in the world. Next year with Chiello and Demiral fits, there's not best place for MDL to be it, cuz even if Sarriball is still in place I know for sure we re going to defend way better next season
 
Apr 19, 2007
3,620
It's not about blaming everything on Sarri but more like you seeing and finding something to praise Sarri for even when it's not that clear for everyone to see as you state. And yes, i do remember our passing last season, and it wasn't much different to what we see now, but you know whats the difference? The previous coach couldn't give a rats ass on that aimless passing/possesion football but rather on how to finish off moves while the one who is now in charge is supposedly focusing specifically on that and still with little to no improvement in that aspect at all after almost a full season in charge.

We aren't better in our general play compared to last season other than sometimes frustrating opponents with our repetitive sideway passes for the sake of possesion with no penetration, then also allowing more goals and gifting clear chances to the opposition isn't that much of an improvement either. All this while we've had an upgraded team with Ramsey , Rabiot , De Ligt , Demiral , Buffon , Higuain arriving, then we also have a CR7 who's now adapted + an injury free Cuadrado and one of our most promising CM's Bentancur in the last few years maturing even further, continuing the same path he was on since the last season.

Yeah, we can talk as much as you want about Dybala and CR7, nevermind majority of their goals didn't come from their partnership/combinations directly but just to follow your logic i'd say is just as much their own merit as it is Sarri's , it's not like there were plenty of other options to try and fit them together seeing as keeping them as LW - RW last season didn't quite work well for Dybala, we can debate it for as long as you'd like but having them play closer to eachother isn't exactly something that no other top coach wouldn't have tried or thought of. Frankly , you can dig for stats and praise Sarri all you want because i'm genuinly not trying to bash him with what i'm saying here, i'm just pointing out the obvious which is that we've stagnated this year(while some could even argue we've went backwards) and that i'd rather reserve my praise for when he is really worthy of it, which clearly now he isn't. The way we will present ourself in CL will tell us a lot about how this season has been going, right now the feeling is that it can go either way even with Lyon which we'll be playing at our own turf so idk what is really your point, but mine is rather clear, we need to improve and not fool ourselfs, did our standards really get so low? because i honestly don't believe so.
The point is that you cant point a single positive thats atributed to Sarri. Thats just stupid. Every coaching change he made you atribute to just that happening when its wasnt done before.
Like I said I dont think that we had a great season but lets not take every positive as luck while every negative being his fault. Like Bentancur having a breakout season? Really this was his natural path?
You discount injuries as well saying we upgraded the squad in key areas which is only partly true
 

Alin

FINO ALLA FINE!
Jul 27, 2015
1,702
The point is that you cant point a single positive thats atributed to Sarri. Thats just stupid. Every coaching change he made you atribute to just that happening when its wasnt done before.
Like I said I dont think that we had a great season but lets not take every positive as luck while every negative being his fault. Like Bentancur having a breakout season? Really this was his natural path?
You discount injuries as well saying we upgraded the squad in key areas which is only partly true
So last year we didn't have injuries or what exactly do you mean by that? What's true is that we had injuries last season just as in this one, just that this time we've had more options to choose from, all in all, even if just on paper, it's definitely an upgrade.

I get your notion that he must have done something right in all this time, but to put Dybala and CR7 who are world class players on their own act and Bentancur who has been breaking through ever since last season as reasons to praise Sarri so be it, i just disagree, and i'm sure i'm not the only one, and just to rephrase, you also mentioned that on an individual level players are better which again 3,4 players doing better than last year doesn't make the numbers for a whole team playing aimless sideway football for 75% of the time they have the ball.

There are some positives ofc, just not those that you keep pushing forward(or at least not the way you keep presenting them), and even so there are so far just as many negatives to make up for those.
 
Apr 19, 2007
3,620
So last year we didn't have injuries or what exactly do you mean by that? What's true is that we had injuries last season just as in this one, just that this time we've had more options to choose from, all in all, even if just on paper, it's definitely an upgrade.

I get your notion that he must have done something right in all this time, but to put Dybala and CR7 who are world class players on their own act and Bentancur who has been breaking through ever since last season as reasons to praise Sarri so be it, i just disagree, and i'm sure i'm not the only one, and just to rephrase, you also mentioned that on an individual level players are better which again 3,4 players doing better than last year doesn't make the numbers for a whole team playing aimless sideway football for 75% of the time they have the ball.

There are some positives ofc, just not those that you keep pushing forward(or at least not the way you keep presenting them), and even so there are so far just as many negatives to make up for those.
Saying its common sense to put Dybala as the CF is wrong bc he hasnt played there in a while. We upgraded that position which you noted and Sarri benched Higuain to occomodate that. Allegri did not. Bentancur more than doubled his assists this season. Our best defender was out all season as well as selling Cancelo.
Costa has been broken all year and most coached would have moved Dybala to the creative spot. So no I dont think thats a nothing move mainly bc it wasnt done for years under Max.
The upgrades you speak of are who exactly?
de ligt----Chiellini
ramsey-----hurt all year
Higuain being benched?
Rabiot is great and has come a long way since the start. Some of thaat has to be put on Sarri right?
Ronaldo speaks for himself.
Like I said you cant contribute every negative to the coach bc our injuries this season have been huge. Way more than last season
 

Alin

FINO ALLA FINE!
Jul 27, 2015
1,702
Saying its common sense to put Dybala as the CF is wrong bc he hasnt played there in a while. We upgraded that position which you noted and Sarri benched Higuain to occomodate that. Allegri did not. Bentancur more than doubled his assists this season. Our best defender was out all season as well as selling Cancelo.
Costa has been broken all year and most coached would have moved Dybala to the creative spot. So no I dont think thats a nothing move mainly bc it wasnt done for years under Max.
The upgrades you speak of are who exactly?
de ligt----Chiellini
ramsey-----hurt all year
Higuain being benched?
Rabiot is great and has come a long way since the start. Some of thaat has to be put on Sarri right?
Ronaldo speaks for himself.
Like I said you cant contribute every negative to the coach bc our injuries this season have been huge. Way more than last season
Bruh, you keep talking about me putting all negative on the coach but you keep pointing every positive that ever happened on Sarri.. what's that all about?

So you are gonna tell us now that Dybala hasn't been in the creative spot for majority of the season and that Sarri has magically placed him in the perfect place this year right? Dybala is most games still drifting to the same CAM to combine with the ST/CF(who btw all season it's been Ronaldo) or RW side to combine with Cuadrado and get a shot at goal from his classic position while dropping back to start counters or go high up only when to press defenders, i don't see the mastermind touch Sarri has had on that but anyway , i seriously doubt you watch our games, Dybala may have been a fake 9 on paper but in games he has been our main creative asset, drifting along the same positions he would in previous seasons, difference to now? This season he has been way more accurate in his finishing and first touch, which obviously is a positive(perhaps even thanks to Sarri if he's worked with him on this one), but again tbf i don't even have any ideea what formation we are playing at times or what's our front 3 exact positioning as there's a lot of mixing up(which here yes i can say it's a positive again as this confuses opponents, problem is that it also confuses ourselfs for most of the time too) and mostly it's the same players but they are all over the place when things get rough and this needs to be worked on far more than on an individual level, he needs to make us play as an unit.
 
Apr 19, 2007
3,620
Bruh, you keep talking about me putting all negative on the coach but you keep pointing every positive that ever happened on Sarri.. what's that all about?

So you are gonna tell us now that Dybala hasn't been in the creative spot for majority of the season and that Sarri has magically placed him in the perfect place this year right? Dybala is most games still drifting to the same CAM to combine with the ST/CF(who btw all season it's been Ronaldo) or RW side to combine with Cuadrado and get a shot at goal from his classic position while dropping back to start counters or go high up only when to press defenders, i don't see the mastermind touch Sarri has had on that but anyway , i seriously doubt you watch our games, Dybala may have been a fake 9 on paper but in games he has been our main creative asset, drifting along the same positions he would in previous seasons, difference to now? This season he has been way more accurate in his finishing and first touch, which obviously is a positive(perhaps even thanks to Sarri if he's worked with him on this one), but again tbf i don't even have any ideea what formation we are playing at times or what's our front 3 exact positioning as there's a lot of mixing up(which here yes i can say it's a positive again as this confuses opponents, problem is that it also confuses ourselfs for most of the time too) and mostly it's the same players but they are all over the place when things get rough and this needs to be worked on far more than on an individual level, he needs to make us play as an unit.
If you think he driops as far back as years past you havnt seen us play. Yes he moves side to side obviously but comes back way less. Ive already stated my big issues with the season that I put on Sarri. I can repeat if you want. But the creative performance of the players i mentiones have a lot to do with our play IMO. Do you think there have been any positives you attribute to Sarri? Or only personal decisions to just play better as a player? Are you upset that Dybala just decided on his own not to play better last season.
 

Hydde

Duke NUKEM
Mar 6, 2003
36,295
If you think he driops as far back as years past you havnt seen us play. Yes he moves side to side obviously but comes back way less. Ive already stated my big issues with the season that I put on Sarri. I can repeat if you want. But the creative performance of the players i mentiones have a lot to do with our play IMO. Do you think there have been any positives you attribute to Sarri? Or only personal decisions to just play better as a player? Are you upset that Dybala just decided on his own not to play better last season.
Spot on

Dybala was having a weird mental breakdown last season, and pretty much it was also affected by the way allegri saw him as a player and tactics. He just wasnt clicking with was being asked, and he mentally crumbled. And both of them seemed to have a sour relantionship also.
 
Apr 19, 2007
3,620
Spot on

Dybala was having a weird mental breakdown last season, and pretty much it was also affected by the way allegri saw him as a player and tactics. He just wasnt clicking with was being asked, and he mentally crumbled. And both of them seemed to have a sour relantionship also.
Yeah it was really bad. Sad to see. It was to the point that if Max stayed I believed we should cash him in bc he wasnt being used properly at all. They even had words on the field a few times
 

Alin

FINO ALLA FINE!
Jul 27, 2015
1,702
If you think he driops as far back as years past you havnt seen us play. Yes he moves side to side obviously but comes back way less. Ive already stated my big issues with the season that I put on Sarri. I can repeat if you want. But the creative performance of the players i mentiones have a lot to do with our play IMO. Do you think there have been any positives you attribute to Sarri? Or only personal decisions to just play better as a player? Are you upset that Dybala just decided on his own not to play better last season.
So according to your logic, the fact Dybala had a mental breakdown last season and was about to be swapped for Lukaku and the likes in the summer only for him to make a stance deciding he will stay against all odds has just about nothing to do with his current form and it’s just Sarri’s magic wand and his exquisite tactics that got the best out of him right?
 
Apr 19, 2007
3,620
So according to your logic, the fact Dybala had a mental breakdown last season and was about to be swapped for Lukaku and the likes in the summer only for him to make a stance deciding he will stay against all odds has just about nothing to do with his current form and it’s just Sarri’s magic wand and his exquisite tactics that got the best out of him right?
Him deciding to stay and his current form has everything to do with tactics and what sarri told him his role would be IMO. I dont think he would have stayed with max.

Now my question- Do you think the form from last year to this year has nothing to do with the coaching tactics?
 

Alin

FINO ALLA FINE!
Jul 27, 2015
1,702
Him deciding to stay and his current form has everything to do with tactics and what sarri told him his role would be IMO. I dont think he would have stayed with max.

Now my question- Do you think the form from last year to this year has nothing to do with the coaching tactics?
I see you now read Dybala’s and Sarri’s mind aswell, perhaps you can give us even more insight into what they’ve disussed if we’re not asking too much of your precious time..

Let me ask you another question. Do you think Ronaldo’s arrival last season aswell as Buffon and Marchisio leaving didn’t have any impact on the team or specific players or was it just all Allegri’s fault? Perhaps he should have borrowed one of Sarri’s magic wands as according to you everything’s Maurizio has touched this season has turned to gold. (aside from the Supercoppa and Coppa which he kinda turned into silver tho, i wonder where were the ‘much improved in many aspects of our game’ signs those days.)


- - - Updated - - -

Just to put an end to this, i agree Dybala has obviously had a much better season now compared to the previous one and that he’s been linking up much better with CR7 overall, however what i’m saying is thats just as much on certain outside factors and circumstances as it is on Sarri’s influence on him. Which again takes us away from the main point of our debate, which was you claiming we’ve improved our passing and many aspects while also having individuals play better under Sarri, and again, that’s bullcrap, 3,4 individuals performing well doesn’t make up for all the overall confusing performances we’ve seen this season, and most certainly didn’t help in making us play better as an unit, which we’ve hardly ever managed to other than on a few occasions here and there. That’s the one of the first and foremost things Sarri needs to improve on and he’s been knowing it for a while, yet we still somehow show up with the same lack of know-how on managing certain phases of the game or when to stay compact and avoid high pressing, which has just been going on as an recurring theme all season long.
 
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Hydde

Duke NUKEM
Mar 6, 2003
36,295
So according to your logic, the fact Dybala had a mental breakdown last season and was about to be swapped for Lukaku and the likes in the summer only for him to make a stance deciding he will stay against all odds has just about nothing to do with his current form and it’s just Sarri’s magic wand and his exquisite tactics that got the best out of him right?
IMO it also had to do with the Super Plusvalenza plan from Paratici.

Dybala was having like 2 seasons on the low before that, and we needed to cash in. Paratici was taking the easy way of cashing on dybala because he was desperate to sell for plusvalenza, and dybala didnt helped his cause in the last 2 years. Like i said before, Dybala was also part of the problem, but Paratici was dumber for trying to offload him in first place.

The board needed to take a side between Allegri and Dybala and they fired Allegri. If the case was the opposite, they should have fired dybala forcefully. But not both.

About Sarri and DYbala, what is clear to see is that both work better together than Dybala-max. That is obvious.

Im just talking about dybalas case here, not the overall performance of the team.
 

Alin

FINO ALLA FINE!
Jul 27, 2015
1,702
IMO it also had to do with the Super Plusvalenza plan from Paratici.

Dybala was having like 2 seasons on the low before that, and we needed to cash in. Paratici was taking the easy way of cashing on dybala because he was desperate to sell for plusvalenza, and dybala didnt helped his cause in the last 2 years. Like i said before, Dybala was also part of the problem, but Paratici was dumber for trying to offload him in first place.

The board needed to take a side between Allegri and Dybala and they fired Allegri. If the case was the opposite, they should have fired dybala forcefully. But not both.

About Sarri and DYbala, what is clear to see is that both work better together than Dybala-max. That is obvious.

Im just talking about dybalas case here, not the overall performance of the team.
I understand the perspective from which you are looking at this however there’s also worth pointing out we’ve still tried to offload Dybala even a month or two after Max was gone, so i dont know exactly what’s the truth there but perhaps is somewhere in the middle.

All in all, i’ve actually also been pointing out ever sincer October/November that the management didn’t help at all in find finding Sarri the players that fit his system so that takes us again to the main point here which is that we’ve not seen much of an improvement this year compared to the last seasons, and that’s just as much on the management as it is on the Coach, without a doubt.
 

Hydde

Duke NUKEM
Mar 6, 2003
36,295
I understand the perspective from which you are looking at this however there’s also worth pointing out we’ve still tried to offload Dybala even a month or two after Max was gone, so i dont know exactly what’s the truth there but perhaps is somewhere in the middle.

All in all, i’ve actually also been pointing out ever sincer October/November that the management didn’t help at all in find finding Sarri the players that fit his system so that takes us again to the main point here which is that we’ve not seen much of an improvement this year compared to the last seasons, and that’s just as much on the management as it is on the Coach, without a doubt.
I feel like typing so let me entertain you.

Ill try to guess what happened, as it is difficult to know what really went on behind the scenes. Ill speculate a little from what i perceive.

-Last year, the team was playing a very lacklustre football and the board decided a change was needed. Allegri, while very good at thinkering, was a self proclaimed "1-0" coach and that winning was the ultimate goal. While is not bad to have this mentality, the board felt it was enough and that we needed to be more eager on our plays. I think they confronted Max and he tried to convince them that the best solution was to sell some players. The board was not in synch with that. Also, i believe there were more than a few players having some disputes with Max internally, and im pretty sure Max decided those players were the ones which needed to be sold (Pjanic and Dybala could have been among those)

-Then, Max Got fired and replaced by Sarri, with the intend of playing "Sarriball". I remember very clearly that one of the first thing Sarri said was that he wanted to work with Dybala. I think we all rememeber that. What happened next is what i dont know what clearly happened.

-Paratici and co. decided out of the blue that Dybala had to be sold. This is pretty weird because if you fired Allegri for the sake of Dybala and the others, then why suddenly try to sell him? and they were ruthless with him. on top of that, why you would sell a player of chis characteristics when was well known that the new "offensive" coach wanted to work with him and get the best of him?.

In my opinion, the answer is Economical problems. Why? because if you take into account Paraticis regime...the guy sold whatever he could for plusvalenza...including players that should have stayed like Kean and Spinazzola (for rotstion pirpouses). Cancelo got traded for useless Danilo just for plusvalenza (!!)He also sold a lot of lesser players and tried to offload Higuain at all cost. Paratici was desperate. And this only points at an accounting issue, most likely with UEFA (maybe because of the ronaldo sudden deal?)

Returning to Dybala, he was an easy prey for Tici. He had 2 below par seasons (to say the least), and he was a high earner. I think that also the board had a lot of issues trying to manage Allegri and Dybala differences, and in the end maybe they decided that it was not worth the effort anymore to keep a player that was not giving his best either and causing issues.... so this is when Paratici and co. planned they had to sell him at all cost.

Still, i find it baffling that hey decided to do that knowing that not only a new coach was coming, but that the coach openly requested dybala to stay for his use.

And this...says a lot about the desperation and the improvisation of Paratici.
 

Alin

FINO ALLA FINE!
Jul 27, 2015
1,702
Ok, that was an entertaining read i give you that! :lol:

I don’t necessarily agree with everything as it’s ofc alot of guessing and assuming to it but you did point out some scenarios there which might not be that far off from the truth afterall.
 

Hydde

Duke NUKEM
Mar 6, 2003
36,295
Ok, that was an entertaining read i give you that! :lol:

I don’t necessarily agree with everything as it’s ofc alot of guessing and assuming to it but you did point out some scenarios there which might not be that far off from the truth afterall.
Yup, theres a lot of speculation there. But think about it for a second
Dybala was eager to stay and prove himself. He was a fan fav, and on top there is what i said about Sarri wanting him. I think this are enough reasons to NOT sell.

Why Paratici was so eager about selling him at all cost? to the point he was even ready to burn bridges in the relations between the player and the club...and sell him to inter for Lukaku (wtf tici?)

This only screams economical (or accountgin/legal?) issues to me, because in a sporting sense it made 0.
 
Apr 19, 2007
3,620
Lets go over facts
Dybala was below his standard for 2 seasons.
Dybala had a run in with the last coach
Dybala was asked to create and was in our midfield and overworked for most every game.

Dybala is playing better this season
He is playing closer to goal
He is in charge of linking up with movements around the box and not in our midfield.

Why did these things happen?
 

Nedved96

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2017
5,483
Lets go over facts
Dybala was below his standard for 2 seasons.
Returning to Dybala, he was an easy prey for Tici. He had 2 below par seasons (to say the least), and he was a high earner.
I don’t understand this claim. Dybala was great in 2017/18. That year is still his highest scoring to date with 26 goals. He was even voted the MVP of the season on here.

Dybala has spent five seasons at Juventus, and 2018/19 remains the only bad season he’s had.

As for De Ligt, if he continues to perform at a world class level we will never try to sell him. But then again, it depends on how badly he wants to leave. We sold Pogba when he wanted to leave, but we blocked Sandro from moving to Chelsea in 2017, so it depends.
 

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