Massimiliano Allegri (272 Viewers)

[Hydde]

Spoiler

I'll say it again, it is very very very unlikely that any other coach can get higher results with this group of players than Allegri. Even Conte couldnt match his results and he is a coach that at least initially makes players punch well above their weight and fills them with confidence and self-belief (until l he falls out with management over transfers that is). That is not to say that he doesnt make mistakes in specific games, I am just saying that overall he gets results and usually makes us punch above our weight. This is a limited group of players compared with the big clubs and sadly more rich clubs are emerging with better squads and so the gap will naturally grow.

I see two possible alternate strategies that we could employ to keep growing. This is the naive optimist in me:

1) We change coaches and hire a very attractive but competent coach (Jardim, Sarri, Pep type). We would then get slightly lesser results (we'd probably still win the league as we have the best squad by a mile and all serie A clubs are poor af) but would make big gains aesthetically.

The football would be so aesthetically pleasing that we'd dominate lesser teams with big scores and players like Dybala, Costa and Higuain will be super entertaining to follow and we'd make more money as a result and close the financial gap on the rich by becoming an attractive brand that neutrals follow. The fundamental assumption of this strategy is that we could make huge commercial gains if we play dominant attractive football all the way till we meet a Barca/Bayern/Madrid and get smashed in the CL. This could very well be false because Dybala, Costa and Higuain might not be capable of being attractive enough in an offensive setup. PSG could use this strategy because they could buy Neymar, Ibra etc from owners money and then wait for commercial revenues to pay them back but we dont have that money and will have to use the players we got and can afford.


2) More of the same but adopt a harsher stance on selling key players. Basically this means we keep Allegri or employ a similar coach like Simeone or Inzaghi who plays ugly but can get the team to punch above their weight most of the time. This means we commercially continue with the same brand of football we have been using but slow down the degradation of our squad by keeping the Vidals, Pogbas and Dybalas no matter what. The fundamental assumptions of this strategy are (A) that we can keep those players performing despite forcing them to stay which I believe is very plausible and (B) if we keep those players, then the gap with the rich (in footballing and not financial terms) would shrink and be small enough that facing them with our master tactician coach would be a 50/50 and that would be enough to win the CL.

These assumptions could be false especially B, given the existence of Messi and Ronaldo who having them is like having 2 extra players on the pitch and given their superior buying power in general. Maybe we wont always find steals like Vidal and Pirlo and Pogba.

In short, the gap with Madrid/Barca/Bayern is growing, and there looks to be more teams joining that ultra rich club at least on paper like PSG and City, while our relative buying power is decreasing and our squad quality is degrading. This is bad but we can survive this well if we either become an entertaining but still competent team and make big commercial revs or we can do more of the same but stop losing key players every season and hope our tactician coaches can get us to punch above our weight and win the CL (which will have a good impact on commercial revs as well).

The sad part is that both scenarios seem unlikely given what Marotta has been saying.

I would go with number 1:

if we play dominant attractive football all the way till we meet a Barca/Bayern/Madrid and get smashed in the CL.

And what if we play good enough to have a responsible defense AND at the same time be able to damage those teams with a mixture of offensive gameplay and good to great players? Yesterday we just needed a goal to level actions in the first half but since we are not competent enough in attack, we were not able to comeback fast.
I dont think we need neymars or mbappes for this to work... but a good organization and mentality for it. yesterday we saw how vulnerable they can be if you attack them with commitment. Sometimes more akind to 90s juve and 2012 bayern rather than to tiki takas spaniards

Winning with this style will breed only more confidence in our gameplay. Will make players have confidence in themselves when attacking and knowing how to pounce and and when. Maybe we will not eb as stellar in defence as the prime of BBC, but we all know a prime BBC is no whats needed to win in europe. I think we are all pretty clear that this has been debunked many times over.

 

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[AndreaCristiano]

I agree with the majority assessment. The midfield is nowhere near substantial enough to play with two versus real. Honestly as much as many hate it on here it should have been a 3-5-2. I will also say that the conundrum is the constant buying of older players and never making the moves we need to rejuvenate the team and bring in quality. Our level of talent from first team to second is a massive drop off. It may fly in serie A but not in champions

 

[ALC]

I love the armchair coaches here who know what our formation should’ve been more than Allegri does.

 

[Stephan]

I'll say it again, it is very very very unlikely that any other coach can get higher results with this group of players than Allegri. Even Conte couldnt match his results and he is a coach that at least initially makes players punch well above their weight and fills them with confidence and self-belief (until l he falls out with management over transfers that is). That is not to say that he doesnt make mistakes in specific games, I am just saying that overall he gets results and usually makes us punch above our weight. This is a limited group of players compared with the big clubs and sadly more rich clubs are emerging with better squads and so the gap will naturally grow.

I see two possible alternate strategies that we could employ to keep growing. This is the naive optimist in me:

1) We change coaches and hire a very attractive but competent coach (Jardim, Sarri, Pep type). We would then get slightly lesser results (we'd probably still win the league as we have the best squad by a mile and all serie A clubs are poor af) but would make big gains aesthetically.

The football would be so aesthetically pleasing that we'd dominate lesser teams with big scores and players like Dybala, Costa and Higuain will be super entertaining to follow and we'd make more money as a result and close the financial gap on the rich by becoming an attractive brand that neutrals follow. The fundamental assumption of this strategy is that we could make huge commercial gains if we play dominant attractive football all the way till we meet a Barca/Bayern/Madrid and get smashed in the CL. This could very well be false because Dybala, Costa and Higuain might not be capable of being attractive enough in an offensive setup. PSG could use this strategy because they could buy Neymar, Ibra etc from owners money and then wait for commercial revenues to pay them back but we dont have that money and will have to use the players we got and can afford.


2) More of the same but adopt a harsher stance on selling key players. Basically this means we keep Allegri or employ a similar coach like Simeone or Inzaghi who plays ugly but can get the team to punch above their weight most of the time. This means we commercially continue with the same brand of football we have been using but slow down the degradation of our squad by keeping the Vidals, Pogbas and Dybalas no matter what. The fundamental assumptions of this strategy are (A) that we can keep those players performing despite forcing them to stay which I believe is very plausible and (B) if we keep those players, then the gap with the rich (in footballing and not financial terms) would shrink and be small enough that facing them with our master tactician coach would be a 50/50 and that would be enough to win the CL.

These assumptions could be false especially B, given the existence of Messi and Ronaldo who having them is like having 2 extra players on the pitch and given their superior buying power in general. Maybe we wont always find steals like Vidal and Pirlo and Pogba.

In short, the gap with Madrid/Barca/Bayern is growing, and there looks to be more teams joining that ultra rich club at least on paper like PSG and City, while our relative buying power is decreasing and our squad quality is degrading. This is bad but we can survive this well if we either become an entertaining but still competent team and make big commercial revs or we can do more of the same but stop losing key players every season and hope our tactician coaches can get us to punch above our weight and win the CL (which will have a good impact on commercial revs as well).

The sad part is that both scenarios seem unlikely given what Marotta has been saying.

We also have to give younger players a chance now to build new cycle.Out with Buffon, Barzagli, Licht and in with Rugani, Caldara etc. This BBC cycle is over.

I dont get the Bayern Barca Real are joined by Psg and City comment.
Psg has paid highest wages in world. Man city have spent over billion since the sheiks took over. Which was what 10 years ago? Still no CL success.

Im not even sure who is where at this stage. Bayern doesnt spend random big money from what i get. Real havent either recently. Remember Ronaldo was bought 09. If anything Real has benefited from spending big short time and then keep the core of team.

I dont know where Barca stand. They just sold Neymar. You can look at it in so many ways. A big club like Barca sold best Brazilian active player. Also does it mean Barca actually needs to sell also to buy? Or maybe Neymar isnt a team player. Egos clashed. They said in summer Neymar has to move on to het out of Messi shadow. I think it was dumb move from him cause PSG dominate France but cant keep the levels or rise to really push in europe. And then they get trashed. Im not too worried in the competion sense with PSG. I think them playing in France will always handicap them somewhat.

With England its hard to say. Pep was brought for CL. 2 seasons in and he still cant get to semis. Losing to inferior teams as well in Monaco and Pool. The other teams all have their issues as well which wont be fixed overnight. Tottenham wont have the belief to go far in europe. Chelsea has srs problems imo after poor transfer policy and Conte f-ckups as well (They could do with Costa right now for example and Conte isnt exactly CL proven as we know). Utd needs to spend more again but spend smart and tbh Mourinho style wont win anymore. Pool are on a rise but can they keep their best players like Salah we will have to see. Salah will be one of the players the Reals, Barcas, potentially Bayerns + Psg/City will try to sign.

 

[IliveForJuve]

I love people who come in to complain about other people complaining.

 

[Nedved96]

I don't want us to play tiki-taka like Pep's Barca. That's not Juve's DNA. You can still play good attacking football without always dominating possession.


Lippi's 1994-1999 Juventus
Ferguson's 2007-2009 United
Heynckes' 2011-2013 Bayern


That is the kind of football we should be aiming to play, fearsome going forward while retaining defensive stability.


At the moment we are a million miles away. We are shaky defensively when we play against top opposition, and we are toothless going forward.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

I love the armchair coaches here who know what our formation should’ve been more than Allegri does.

Well the reality is if he didn’t constantly making the same mistakes in Champions we wouldn’t be arm chair quarterbacking. Besides that’s what tuz is for

 

[Nedved96]

For those who wonder why I claim that we rely too much on individual brilliance to score:

https://understat.com/league/Serie_A


xG is the expected number of goals your team should score based on the quality of the chances you create. We have scored 70 goals this season, which is 23 more than we should have based on he quality of our chances. Our xG is only the 6th highest in Serie A, behind even Atalanta. Yes, Atalanta creates better chances than we do.


The reason to why we have scored so many goals this season is because our forwards, particularly Dybala and Higuain, are absolutely ruthless in front of goal. We don't appreciate just how lethal they are.


And before anyone asks, Real Madrid and Barcelona both create way more chances than everyone else in La Liga. Bayern create by far the most chances in the Bundesliga. We create the 6th most chances in Serie A.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

For those who wonder why I claim that we rely too much on individual brilliance to score:

https://understat.com/league/Serie_A


xG is the expected number of goals your team should score based on the quality of the chances you create. We have scored 70 goals this season, which is 23 more than we should have based on he quality of our chances. Our xG is only the 6th highest in Serie A, behind even Atalanta. Yes, Atalanta creates better chances than we do.


The reason to why we have scored so many goals this season is because our forwards, particularly Dybala and Higuain, are absolutely ruthless in front of goal. We don't appreciate just how lethal they are.


And before anyone asks, Real Madrid and Barcelona both create way more chances than everyone else in La Liga. Bayern create by far the most chances in the Bundesliga. We create the 6th most chances in Serie A.

Very good comment. Shows demonstratively that we need midfield help

 

[Stephan]

Pjanic was leading assister in league not too long ago and regularly at Roma too.


Also they have naturally more creative players in Kroos, Isco, Modric, Iniesta etc. Besides Messi and Ronaldo.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

Pjanic was leading assister in league not too long ago and regularly at Roma too.

What have you done for me lately plus it’s systemic you can’t always expect one player to provide the spark

 

[Pirlo's Beard]

I'm sceptical of over analysing football but it confirms what many of us have said for a long time. So many times we flat out can't create shit but thankfully against Serie A sides we're usually ruthless.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

I'm sceptical of over analysing football but it confirms what many of us have said for a long time. So many times we flat out can't create $#@! but thankfully against Serie A sides we're usually ruthless.

This goes back to what you said above. Our midfield is weak and the fall off from starters to second level player is dramatic. Although it is fine for serie A it won’t fly against top flight teams like real or Barca

 

[Stephan]

What have you done for me lately plus it’s systemic you can’t always expect one player to provide the spark

I dont think italian team would line up with a Isco-Kroos-Modric lineup. Also we dont have the finance to buy all these type of players in one go.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

I dont think italian team would line up with a Isco-Kroos-Modric lineup. Also we dont have the finance to buy all these type of players in one go.

Not all but we have sold some players and will. We have money and could put pieces into place then add the youth we have we could start building a great team. If you had to right now?, you couldn’t even name our core ?

 

[MikeM]

Max has said repeatedly that he sets the team up for Dybala to find space outside the box for shooting opportunities. He is good at those situations. But the expected goals from that scenario will be low.

However, Max recognizes that Dybala has a strength in this area so Higuain pins CBs back and Dybala tries to find space underneath him to shoot.

That's the most you can create when you don't have CMs in your team that can dribble a ball and fullbacks that are non-existent.

I don't understand this "individual brilliance" thing. Do we regularly see Dybala and Higuain fucking slaloming the opposition and hitting top corner? They basically score every goal from inside the box or just outside. How the fuck does the ball get there? Magnets?

 

[DAiDEViL]

Back to individual brilliance yet again @Post Ironic @Bianconero_Aus

 

[Nedved96]

I dont think italian team would line up with a Isco-Kroos-Modric lineup. Also we dont have the finance to buy all these type of players in one go.

None of Modric, Kroos, or Isco were particularly expensive for Real Madrid. They all cost in the region of 30 million. Granted, prices have inflated since then, but we (Juve) are not as smart in the transfer window as we like to think. The only creative midfielder we have bought since 2015 is Pjanic, the rest are all workhorses.

Instead of addressing this obvious issue, we are targeting more workhorses without creativity like Emre Can.

 

[Stephan]

Not all but we have sold some players and will. We have money and could put pieces into place then add the youth we have we could start building a great team. If you had to right now?, you couldn’t even name our core ?

Dont get what u mean. Our core last couple of years has been BBC + 1-2 good mids and offense player. Pjanic (Pirlo & Vidal before). Tevez was huge. Dybala is trying to emulate that but inconsistent. Higuain was wrong buy for CL ambitions.

 

[AndreaCristiano]

None of Modric, Kroos, or Isco were particularly expensive for Real Madrid. They all cost in the region of 30 million. Granted, prices have inflated since then, but we (Juve) are not as smart in the transfer window as we like to think. The only creative midfielder we have bought since 2015 is Pjanic, the rest are all workhorses.

Instead of addressing this obvious issue, we are targeting more workhorses without creativity like Emre Can.

Add to that the fact that we don’t really go and find the young talent that could explode into the above. We constantly buy players either already in their prime or a little past. Betancour is an anomaly not the norm