out now?


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Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
:lol:

- - - Updated - - -

I forgot about that argument :lol:

I think it was our good mate Vialli who claimed that goals from penalties or set pieces count less. And so do goals which are seen as “individual brilliance” and don’t involve intricate teamwork. Every goal should be scored with every single player on the ball passing the ball to each other at least twice in the build-up.
Indecisive goals :lol:
 

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Lion

King of Tuz
Jan 24, 2007
36,185
guys, nevbed96 and vialli are basically the new versions of cronios and vinman

except that cronios was entertaining and he had some great classics. and some of his points were fair (and we sucked when he started complaining too. unlike now)

god i miss cronios. he's the whiner tuz deserves, not the one it needs
 

Stephan

Senior Member
Nov 9, 2005
16,642
This whole kids argument is nonsense. First of all even the best at it like Barcelona arent producing the same quality they used to (where are the next Xavis and Iniestas).
Instead they are buying already semi established players like Coutinho or some very odd options like Paulinho.

Then there is cultural thing. Buffon is still playing and starting at age 40. Imagine if Buffon played for Real? He would have been shown the door after his back injury problem and the rest would have been history.

On the basis of it Rugani has 15years of career ahead of him. Im sure if we played back 3 he would get more opportunities. But for now there havent been reason or cause to start him over Benatia or Chiellini. And experience matters in Italy so he finds himself on bench. You dont change winning team and CB position particilarly is one you simply dont rotate weekly basis. We signed Rugani for long term and to not miss out on him. A lot can happen in the coming years. Barza will retire by 2020. Benatia injury problems might return as he turns 30 and Chiellini is 35 next year where also certain things might change in either form or injury or just general decline. Its not ideal for Rugani in terms of playing time but in 2 years time i except him to start.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,616
This whole kids argument is nonsense. First of all even the best at it like Barcelona arent producing the same quality they used to (where are the next Xavis and Iniestas).
Instead they are buying already semi established players like Coutinho or some very odd options like Paulinho.

Then there is cultural thing. Buffon is still playing and starting at age 40. Imagine if Buffon played for Real? He would have been shown the door after his back injury problem and the rest would have been history.

On the basis of it Rugani has 15years of career ahead of him. Im sure if we played back 3 he would get more opportunities. But for now there havent been reason or cause to start him over Benatia or Chiellini. And experience matters in Italy so he finds himself on bench. You dont change winning team and CB position particilarly is one you simply dont rotate weekly basis. We signed Rugani for long term and to not miss out on him. A lot can happen in the coming years. Barza will retire by 2020. Benatia injury problems might return as he turns 30 and Chiellini is 35 next year where also certain things might change in either form or injury or just general decline. Its not ideal for Rugani in terms of playing time but in 2 years time i except him to start.
Buffon is still quality thats why he is here. Had he declined massively as early as Casillas or Raul, we'd have given let him go just like we let go of del piero when he wanted to stay. Barzagli is also still here because he is very good.
 

Wittl

Senior Member
Contributor
Feb 21, 2017
11,311
Buffon is still quality thats why he is here. Had he declined massively as early as Casillas or Raul, we'd have given let him go just like we let go of del piero when he wanted to stay. Barzagli is also still here because he is very good.
Lol no, they're still here because Allegri doesn't have the balls to play with younger players instead.
 

Stephan

Senior Member
Nov 9, 2005
16,642
Buffon is still quality thats why he is here. Had he declined massively as early as Casillas or Raul, we'd have given let him go just like we let go of del piero when he wanted to stay. Barzagli is also still here because he is very good.
Raul reached semis in CL with Shalke 2011 (age 33/34). Scored 2 goals against Inter and eliminated the defending chumps. As a starter. Also scored and knocked out Valencia in the r16. Won some german cup competitions.

Dp was 38 for god sake. And he didnt start on 11-12. Totally pointless comparison. How many top euro sides start 38 year old forward/striker? Also DP somewhat benefited from Calciopoli. He hardly got minutes under Capello in his last season. Also who knows who we had signed after 2006 had calciopoli not happened. Im not saying DP would have left but its highly likely he hadnt started 2008 when he scored those goals against Real in group home away. He was 34. But we started Zlatan-Trez in every big game before calciopoli. We would have signed some big gun to replace Trez and partner Zlatan.

My point was that most other teams would not have shown the patience we did with Buffon when there was career defining doubt in terms of him continue after the back injury.

Barzagli is here for obvious reasons. But see meanwhile Real get rid of Pepe who is still capable as he won euros and best defender of euro16. Already said its cultural thing.

Barca got rid of Xavi at 35. Now got rid of Mascherano.

Meanwhile Totti plays till 40. Buffon same. Many other examples. Maldini same.

Yes class players but see they all play longer also because the policy is different in Italy.

There is no way a team would have got rid of Raul at age 33 in Italy. He scored 18 goals in 08/09. Real got rid of him 2010. This decline thing is bs. He scored 15 league goals first season at Shalke. Scored 5 CL goals including knockout goals against Valencia and Inter. Higuain would kill for those stats age 33-34.

Stop bs man.


With Casillas there was also some power play bs there. Mourinho fucked him over. Although he did decline i wont disagree. Point was that teams are more loyal in italy in general. Which these age comparisons prove.
 

Alin

FINO ALLA FINE!
Jul 27, 2015
6,390
Ok that's it. Today's round of PL fixtures finally convinced me that Allegri has to go.
We've scored 52 goals in 22 games (compared to 49 and 45 in 25 for United and Chelsea respectively) but they're all down to individual brilliance. Compare our gameplay to that of Mourinho's United or Conte's Chelsea. It is slow and sluggish, we are creatively clueless and rely too much on Dybala and Higuain to bail us out. United and Chelsea, on the other hand, have a gameplan, which they often execute to perfection. Short crisp passing, excellent movement on and off the ball and lovely one touch football, often leading to excellent goalscoring chances in every game. It's not as if they send a gazillion crosses every game, hoping that one of them miraculously finds the back of the net. Conte and Mourinho are also superior because they give youngsters a chance. Do you really think Olivier Giroud and Alexis Sanchez would find a spot in this team?
As far as defending is concerned, Allegri is really overrated. Allegri has the nerve to rely on our defenders to win games for us, while managers like Klopp Wenger and Pep give their defenders complete freedom to roam around the pitch and not to worry too much about making mistakes. No wonder players like Van Dijk and John Stones clamor to join these teams, while we poke around Serie A for slow defenders like Caldara and Rugani. #fraudllegri #allegriout
:lol:

Please, someone give this man a medal!

Perfectly executed sarcasm. :tup:
 

Elvin

Senior Member
Nov 25, 2005
36,923
@Stephan Zlatan played over DP because of Capello. Not based on merit/form.
Zlatan was shit for us, while Del Piero scored every-time he came on from the bench (broke this Serie A record actually) and was the one who actually decided that Scudetto race (vs Milan).
 

Stephan

Senior Member
Nov 9, 2005
16,642
Where did i talk about form? Can you read the entire post?

You cant deny DP would have had some hard times if Calciopoli hadnt happened and Trez-Zlatan continued. We also had Mutu who went on a 20 goal score run at Fiorentina. DP would never have started under Capello anymore.

Hence my point that ironically calciopoli migt have helped DP prolong his career particularly as starter here at Juve. In comparison Real got rid of Raul who then enjoyed personal success with Shalke.

Not saying if anyone was done. Saying that opportunities were going to be limited.
 

pitbull

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2007
11,045
Where did i talk about form? Can you read the entire post?

You cant deny DP would have had some hard times if Calciopoli hadnt happened and Trez-Zlatan continued. We also had Mutu who went on a 20 goal score run at Fiorentina. DP would never have started under Capello anymore.

Hence my point that ironically calciopoli migt have helped DP prolong his career particularly as starter here at Juve. In comparison Real got rid of Raul who then enjoyed personal success with Shalke.

Not saying if anyone was done. Saying that opportunities were going to be limited.
Del Piero had hard times prior to Calciopoli because of Crapello being a stubborn grandpa, I suspect Fabio "1:0" Capello wasn't going to stay long anyways because we were regularly embarrassed in Europe by mediocre English sides. Regardless, Del Piero would've been fine, because he was class even at 34 and 36. He'd definitely had better times if Juve was still WC in the second part of his career not half WC - half Almiron level.
 

Hust

Senior Member
Hustini
May 29, 2005
93,703
Juventus winning ugly | Football Italia

The Bianconeri aren't great to watch, but Emmet Gates wonders if they actually care.
“Winning is not important, it is the only thing that matters,” we’ve all heard the immortal line before, uttered by Juventus legend Giampero Boniperti. Boniperti’s words, which have been spun by some to suggest a willingness to dabble in the more sinister, darker arts of the game, goes right to the very essence of what The Old Lady are. It’s clichéd beyond belief, but when it pertains to Juventus, it doesn’t make it any less true; they live to win. Style is of little importance.

Juventus are an anomaly in European football; a super heavyweight that’s never had a footballing blueprint, an ethos, or really any inclination to play attractive football. The only constant, the only tangible permanence, is the will to win trophies.

If we take a look at the most successful European sides in the history of the game (Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Juventus, Man Utd), most of us can recall an iteration of those teams that were breathtaking to watch. Whether it be the early days of the first Galactico era at Real, Johan Cryuff’s Dream Team of the early '90s, United’s swashbuckling treble winning side or Pep Guardiola’s dominant Bayern side.

Try as you might, you’d be hard pressed to recall a Juventus side that scored high marks in the aesthetically pleasing department. It’s just simply not part of the club’s DNA. A case could be argued for certain pockets of time within a Coach’s spell; In the 1994-95 title run in and early 1995-96 under Marcello Lippi; for large parts of Antonio Conte’s first season in 2011/12; Last season when Max Allegri fielded all of his 'cinque stelle’ in a move to make Juve better in Europe. These however are rare instances, and they were fleeting.

The irony in all this of course is that the Bianconeri have had some of the greatest talents to ever play the game, with a past list of No. 10s that is surpassed only by Barcelona. Yet those players tended to be surrounded by hard working grafters, displaying the much-vaunted grinta that many a Juve manager has demanded from his players. Moments of individual magic would then be left up to a Brady, a Platini or a Baggio.

Countless times, we have seen them secure a title whilst seeing off a title challenger that had a superior style. From Lazio in 1995 to Inter in 1998; in more modern times with Napoli last season. They’ve proved time and again that substance does indeed trump style. Sometimes you get the impression the club actually revel in their role as the functional champions par excellence.

The nadir of this functionality was the nightmare-inducing Fabio Capello era of the mid '00s. For two seasons, Capello instructed a side containing creative forces like Pavel Nedved, Alex Del Piero, Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Mauro Camoranesi to essentially suck all joy out of the game by playing the most tediously slow football the Italian game had seen for decades. Capello somehow triumphed over Carlo Ancelotti’s slick and magnificent Milan side, not once but twice. Capello’s mechanical team were torn apart in Europe by Liverpool and Arsenal – two much faster and incisive sides.

Some 8 years after his departure, Antonio Conte felt obliged to channel his inner Capello in 2013-14. In his third and what turned out to be final season, Conte’s restrictive – never mind ridiculously repetitive - patterns of play translated itself into some dire performances.

Chief among them was the Europa league semi final 2nd leg at home to Benfica, needing only a goal to advance to the final on away goals (a final that was also to be played in the Juventus Stadium), the flaws in Conte’s coaching were clear for all to see; his orchestrated patterns failed to pierce a relatively modest Benfica backline and the game ended 0-0. A year later, Max Allegri would take the majority of the same team to within 90 minutes of a treble.

Allegri, by contrast, is much more of a pragmatist and lets his players think for themselves on the pitch. You get the sense that he would like his Juventus to play enterprising football, but has been hamstrung in 3 consecutive summers with key players departing, forcing him to rejig formations and partnerships every season. Yet generally by the business end of the season, he’s figured out his best system – just in time for Juve to open up their trophy cabinet doors once more.

If Maurizio Sarri’s Napoli were to show a steely reserve and bring the title south of Rome for the first time in nearly 30 years, it would be that rare case of the style and substance coming together. Would it change Juve’s philosophical outlook?

History shows the answer would be a resounding no.
 

pitbull

Senior Member
Jul 26, 2007
11,045
Juventus are an anomaly in European football; a super heavyweight that’s never had a footballing blueprint, an ethos, or really any inclination to play attractive football. The only constant, the only tangible permanence, is the will to win trophies.


I always thought that the signature Juventus playing style is fight-for-each-centimeter-of-the-pitch-grinta-beast-mode, from recent times it'd be the first Conte season.

Allegri has kinda moved away from it and he has his reasons, but that doesn't mean we should erase all our past, most of the successful Juve sides in recent past have combined physical sacrifice with character and technical brilliance, I'd say that's our footballing blueprint. Zidane imo adopted it at Real, his Real on their good days look nothing like the toothless Galacticos he was part of, they remind me much more of Juve.
 

Vialli_92

Senior Member
Mar 7, 2013
6,500
I forgot about that argument :lol:

I think it was our good mate Vialli who claimed that goals from penalties or set pieces count less. And so do goals which are seen as “individual brilliance” and don’t involve intricate teamwork. Every goal should be scored with every single player on the team passing the ball to each other at least twice in the build-up.
My only concern with those goals is you can not rely on set pieces and moments of brilliance against the best teams if you want to go to the next level and win a CL

You have to create good scoring chances not all the time but enough to to be able to get in behind a defence now and again

Relying on these flicks ons, set pieces and half chances is not enough to beat the best team in my opinion

We seen how our defence can crumble at any minute and we are not going to outscore opponents playing the way we do when we inevitably concede a few goals in one match

Our tactics will not allow us to win a CL unless the stars align for us like last season which allowed us to get to a final not playing great football or coming against the stronger teams but mainly there was only 2-3 strong teams last season now we will not be so lucky as the competition has improved significantly

The only way we win a CL with these tactics is if everyone plays bad against us and doesn't take their chances against us, that's my opinion and you can go on about Serie A and Coppa Italia's but to win the CL you need to play attacking football it's been proven over the last 5-6 years defensive football isn't enough
 

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