Massimiliano Allegri (196 Viewers)

[DAiDEViL]

We had 39% possession in the 2015 final, and 46% possession in the 2017 final.

Interesting, as people always talk about the midfield as the strongest part of our 2015 team and the weakest part of our 2017 team.

Which is obvious if you watched us play back then and now, and if you look at the list of players that left us.

Coaches adapt. It's called tactics. A high possession rating doesn't equal a great midfield. Maybe your opponent decides to leave the ball to the other team and play counter attacking football? Doesn't mean you have a weak midfield.

 

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[s4tch]

We had 39% possession in the 2015 final, and 46% possession in the 2017 final.

Interesting, as people always talk about the midfield as the strongest part of our 2015 team and the weakest part of our 2017 team.

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Alves was one of the few who actually tried to make something happen. Bonucci, Khedira, Dybala and Higuain were our worst performers.

we played against different teams with different tactics, and juve's tactics were also different. barcelona is all about possession, real played - pretty wisely - on counters. it's pretty pointless and groundless to compare our two midfields based on possession.

i'd take the '15 version of pirlo, vidal, pogba and marchisio over our '17 midfield any day. from our current midfield roster, only pjanic is near to the level of the '15 midfield.

alves tried and failed. he played like shit, no two ways about it.

 

[Hust]

alves is a truly unique player, i give you that, but honestly, do you really miss bonucci? i don't, not in the slightest.

also, our worst performing players in cardiff included both alves and bonucci, as well as dybala, khedira and sandro. there's no way to predict/tell who'll show up in a cl final and who'd you miss in case of a defeat.

Well said.

Nice of you to share the common sense.

 

[Nedved96]

we played against different teams with different tactics, and juve's tactics were also different. barcelona is all about possession, real played - pretty wisely - on counters. it's pretty pointless and groundless to compare our two midfields based on possession.

Yeah I agree with what you say, that stat just surprised me when I found out. It felt like we couldn't string 2 passes together in the second half of the 2017 final while we played some good football in the 2015 final.

 

[DAiDEViL]

alves is a truly unique player, i give you that, but honestly, do you really miss bonucci? i don't, not in the slightest.

also, our worst performing players in cardiff included both alves and bonucci, as well as dybala, khedira and sandro. there's no way to predict/tell who'll show up in a cl final and who'd you miss in case of a defeat.

I don't miss the Milan Bonucci, but the Juve one.

As for the final, it's true that you can't predict who'll have a good day and who won't. Dybala for example didn't show up in the final, but if we make it to another one, you sure want him to start again because it means we have a quality player more on the pitch, same with Bonucci if he was still here. Can't base it on one bad game. Both are worldclass players and could as well have a great final the next time.

 

[Zacheryah]

What you fail to realize is, that by trying to mock me, you are constantly mocking yourself and even prove me right about you being a black and white thinking simpleton.

Reaching finals is all nice and dandy, and certainly an achievement, but without selling key players those lost finals could have been won. If the management keeps doing this again and again, believe it or not, then there is room for criticism.

We have great depth, true, but our starting 11 is weakened compared to last season, and even if Max performs another miracle, and we make it to another CL final - it will most likely again come to bite us in the ass that we sold Bonucci and Alves without replacing them (properly). Rinse and repeat.

Basically like Inter did in 2008-2012

 

[s4tch]

I don't miss the Milan Bonucci, but the Juve one.

it's the same guy: good passing, good positioning, but exposed when attacked directly. do you remember that "leaked real madrid tactical plan" that we lol'd hard on tuz, then it became reality in the final?

 

[Hust]

it's the same guy: good passing, good positioning, but exposed when attacked directly. do you remember that "leaked real madrid tactical plan" that we lol'd hard on tuz, then it became reality in the final?

Barzagli and Chiellini helped make Bonucci what he was. That trio complimented each other but now bonucci is tasked with leading a backline without the cover he had here and we see what happened.

Back 3 bonucci, yes pls. Back 4 bonucci...ehh, that’s a tough one. Losing Alves hurt us more than losing bonucci.

 

[zizinho]

the Barzagli and Chiellini argument fell into water the moment Bonucci succeeded in a 4 man defense with us, with either one of them/Benatia pairing him. its the organization that sucks at Milan, its miles away from ours and the backline will always be the most exposed in that case

 

[Hust]

the Barzagli and Chiellini argument fell into water the moment Bonucci succeeded in a 4 man defense with us, with either one of them/Benatia pairing him. its the organization that sucks at Milan, its miles away from ours and the backline will always be the most exposed in that case

He had Alves to his right and a world class form Sandro to his left. He simply can’t lead a backline on his own.

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He was ALWAYS surrounded by talent here. Individual and own his own in an unorganized Milan he will always flounder IMO

 

[zizinho]

He had Alves to his right and a world class form Sandro to his left. He simply can’t lead a backline on his own.

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He was ALWAYS surrounded by talent here. Individual and own his own in an unorganized Milan he will always flounder IMO

and the least defensive midfield duo in the history of this club, Pjanic and Khedira. also, DA and AS are both offensive fullbacks, and they are caught too high up when we get dispossessed a bit too much to name them as protection for Bonucci.

and to add, Milan has a talented team themselves. RRodriguez was one of the best fullbacks in BL last 4-5 years, Romagnoli and Donnarumma are among the most talented italian players, Musacchio one of the best CBs in La Liga (last season with him, Villarreal had 2nd best defense in the league with 33 goals conceded while he was starting, this season they already conceded 20 without him), Conti is injured at the moment but even he is quite good, was wanted here by a number of people last summer... the difference between us and them is, Max knows how to set up a team defensively, we defend as a unit. neither Montella, and especially not Gattuso, have no clue about it, which results in Milan looking clueless and their defense exposed against Serie A relegation battlers. a great defense isnt simply a group of players that can tackle and intercept well, there is more to that.

 

[Hust]

and the least defensive midfield duo in the history of this club, Pjanic and Khedira. also, DA and AS are both offensive fullbacks, and they are caught too high up when we get dispossessed a bit too much to name them as protection for Bonucci.

and to add, Milan has a talented team themselves. RRodriguez was one of the best fullbacks in BL last 4-5 years, Romagnoli and Donnarumma are among the most talented italian players, Musacchio one of the best CBs in La Liga (last season with him, Villarreal had 2nd best defense in the league with 33 goals conceded while he was starting, this season they already conceded 20 without him), Conti is injured at the moment but even he is quite good, was wanted here by a number of people last summer... the difference between us and them is, Max knows how to set up a team defensively, we defend as a unit. neither Montella, and especially not Gattuso, have no clue about it, which results in Milan looking clueless and their defense exposed against Serie A relegation battlers. a great defense isnt simply a group of players that can tackle and intercept well, there is more to that.

Alves and Sandro on their day are also very good at defending.

We have played possession ball for some time and moved the all very well which also helped play into bonucci’s strengths but as soon as he was in a one v one situation you could very often see his limitations. Now you see him being put into those situations much more at Milan. Bonucci isn’t a leader of the backline or one to organize everyone. We see that clearly but we are going in circles because I don’t disagree with you. Always came down to how max drilled into the heads everyone’s movements. Each player knows exactly where they others are and what they are supposed to do. Very well rehearsaled. Not at Milan. Again, on an individual level he isn’t a leader but he is very good at some things and suspect on others.

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I don’t think we are disagreeing

 

[zizinho]

Alves and Sandro on their day are also very good at defending.

We have played possession ball for some time and moved the all very well which also helped play into bonucci’s strengths but as soon as he was in a one v one situation you could very often see his limitations. Now you see him being put into those situations much more at Milan. Bonucci isn’t a leader of the backline or one to organize everyone. We see that clearly but we are going in circles because I don’t disagree with you. Always came down to how max drilled into the heads everyone’s movements. Each player knows exactly where they others are and what they are supposed to do. Very well rehearsaled. Not at Milan. Again, on an individual level he isn’t a leader but he is very good at some things and suspect on others.

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I don’t think we are disagreeing

i dont think hes not a leader, they gave him the armband in his 1st year for a reason. leadership comes from the coach 1st, if hes clueless as to how to set you up, what are you supposed to do as the so called leader? scream at people where to run/stand, even though it wont help because youre set up wrongly from the get go? i imagine next season, with a REAL coach (not one that plays coach), more depth (Conti is down and Abate sucks so much that they chose to use 352 and play BORINI at RWB at times, they dont have money but selling Donnarumma will help them i guess), and an organized team from the backline will soon erase peoples memories about Leos struggles from this season.

Leo always had his fair share of brainfarts (most defenders do these days), their number increased this season, some were hilarious but also unfortunate i have to admit, but he didnt forget how to defend overnight. its all on Milan

 

[Hust]

i dont think hes not a leader, they gave him the armband in his 1st year for a reason. leadership comes from the coach 1st, if hes clueless as to how to set you up, what are you supposed to do as the so called leader? scream at people where to run/stand, even though it wont help because youre set up wrongly from the get go? i imagine next season, with a REAL coach (not one that plays coach), more depth (Conti is down and Abate sucks so much that they chose to use 352 and play BORINI at RWB at times, they dont have money but selling Donnarumma will help them i guess), and an organized team from the backline will soon erase peoples memories about Leos struggles from this season.

Leo always had his fair share of brainfarts (most defenders do these days), their number increased this season, some were hilarious but also unfortunate i have to admit, but he didnt forget how to defend overnight. its all on Milan

People aren’t claiming he forgot how to defend. People are suggesting he wasn’t all that good at it which is part of the argument with his season in Milan. When tasked to do it as an individual a versus as a unit/team you start to see the difference. That’s also pitbull’s argument with Chiellini being WC at defending. He and Bonucci are pretty much exact opposites. One you want to have the ball at their feet, the other not. One you want going into a tackle, the other not.

I agree it’s all on Milan because they aren’t playing to his strengths but they certainly found a way to highlight his weaknesses.

Once they start playing as a team defensively you will see improvements but the days of bonucci at his best in a Juve Jersey will probably not be seen again at least at Milan. Like I said...Juve made bonucci “bonucci”.

 

[zizinho]

People aren’t claiming he forgot how to defend. People are suggesting he wasn’t all that good at it which is part of the argument with his season in Milan. When tasked to do it as an individual a versus as a unit/team you start to see the difference. That’s also pitbull’s argument with Chiellini being WC at defending. He and Bonucci are pretty much exact opposites. One you want to have the ball at their feet, the other not. One you want going into a tackle, the other not.

I agree it’s all on Milan because they aren’t playing to his strengths but they certainly found a way to highlight his weaknesses.

Once they start playing as a team defensively you will see improvements but the days of bonucci at his best in a Juve Jersey will probably not be seen again at least at Milan. Like I said...Juve made bonucci “bonucci”.

and that argument was always wrong, thats what im saying. Bonucci was an integral part of a team that went on a whole CL campaign conceding only 2 goals, before the final breakdown. thats not someone that could never do it to begin with, because no matter how much its all about the team, you still need individual talent to make said team perform at such level we did last season. Bonucci doesent need 2 WC CBs to babysit him because he sucks at defensive tasks and is only there for passing/playmaking, he needs a coach to make them a team instead of a group of individuals, so there wont be gaps all over the pitch the opponent can exploit, and make them all look like theyre Sere B level.

also, a bit unrelated but i think Chiellini is underrated with the ball. hes taking the ball forward as much as any other CB out there, and his passing is also quite good considering hes basically one footed. just wanted to throw that out there

 

[Hust]

and that argument was always wrong, thats what im saying. Bonucci was an integral part of a team that went on a whole CL campaign conceding only 2 goals, before the final breakdown. thats not someone that could never do it to begin with, because no matter how much its all about the team, you still need individual talent to make said team perform at such level we did last season. Bonucci doesent need 2 WC CBs to babysit him because he sucks at defensive tasks and is only there for passing/playmaking, he needs a coach to make them a team instead of a group of individuals, so there wont be gaps all over the pitch the opponent can exploit, and make them all look like theyre Sere B level.

also, a bit unrelated but i think Chiellini is underrated with the ball. hes taking the ball forward as much as any other CB out there, and his passing is also quite good considering hes basically one footed. just wanted to throw that out there

I agree with Chiellini and passing BUT it’s when he is surging forward or has the ball at his feet in and around our box under pressure is what scares me.

 

[DAiDEViL]

Basically like Inter did in 2008-2012

No idea what you mean. Please elaborate.

What has Building a team for short term success to do with keeping your key players?

I don't want us to keep hold of them til they are in their late 30's, just for us to realize that we are fucked now, but don't sell them in, or, even before their prime.

 

[Bianconero81]

It doesn't. Apparently you either have to sell your best players and keep replenishing the squad, or wait until everyone ages and fail. There's no balance with this one.

 

[Hust]

Tevez: Dybala
Llorente: Higuain
Vidal:?
Bonucci:Benatia
Alves: ?
Pogba: pjanic

—

We seemed to equal or upgrade most of the time with the exception of not finding a RB or Vidal replacement right away. Where we weakened in those spots we strengthened in most others.

The team has been constantly rejuvenated and strengthened despite selling.

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It doesn't. Apparently you either have to sell your best players and keep replenishing the squad, or wait until everyone ages and fail. There's no balance with this one.

You’re talking about balance but I think on the Vidal and Alves occasion you are right about not finding a replacement but we have strengthened other sales and areas of the team from the sales

 

[DAiDEViL]

It doesn't. Apparently you either have to sell your best players and keep replenishing the squad, or wait until everyone ages and fail. There's no balance with this one.

It runs through them like a golden thread.