Mario Lemina (6 Viewers)

KB824

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2003
31,674
Are there any arguments out there about Juve not signing this kid on a permanent basis?

Small sample size, I will give you that. But you can see the glimpses of what he can become, and for 9.5 million, it makes no sense to not take up that option
 

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Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
Are there any arguments out there about Juve not signing this kid on a permanent basis?

Small sample size, I will give you that. But you can see the glimpses of what he can become, and for 9.5 million, it makes no sense to not take up that option
Currently not really, but if he were to get injured again...
 

LiquidPLP

Senior Member
Jun 9, 2012
12,237
Marseille wants to buy out Isla who is simply useless for us. The have an option for him set at 7m but there's some talk of exchange.

Either way I think we should buy Lemina out. From the very first game in our shirt I started to like what the kid brings to the table. Very promising as B2B and can play DM occasionally. For the 10m I'll take that.

All he needs now is to stay fit.
 

KB824

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2003
31,674
Currently not really, but if he were to get injured again...
I think that during his good moments, he has shown the potential to be very good, and at his age, it just makes sense.

Yeah, he had the injury issue, and he was not the only one this year. 9.5 million these days for a midfielder that if he reaches his potential, could be a starter. You have to take that chance.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,400
We needed someone great when attacking - he wasn't. Conte's 3-5-2 looked more like a 5-3-2 and it was clear when played CL matches.
nop that was an added bonus. The main idea was to have someone tirelessly running up and down the pitch stretching the opposition defense when he is up and recovering the ball when he is down. His stats as a WB are not bad at all either. Especially considering that he had one season with Llorente only and we didnt have decent strikers for the first 2 years. You've forgotten how solid and reliable he was. Same for Licht.

It looked like 5-3-2 only against Bayern. This was because we were pinned back for long periods during the game. It didn't look like a 5-3-2 against Chelsea, Celtic, Shakhtar, or even Galatasaray. When Allegri used it last season against Dortmund, he did not have attacking WBs like Cuadrado and Sandro but it still wasn't a 5-3-2 and we won 3-0. Same thing again against Monaco.

The whole 3-5-2 doesn't work in Europe for some magical reason was shown to be hogwash a long time ago. Last season's CL run confirmed it.

In any case its good that we have both offensive and defensive WBs in the team now. I just disagree with the propositions which say that 3-5-2 doesn't work in Europe as a blanker statement and 3-5-2 with Licht and Asa were always 5-3-2. It was a 3-5-2 against every single team we managed to dominate possession against. Bayern is the exception not the rule.
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
I think that during his good moments, he has shown the potential to be very good, and at his age, it just makes sense.

Yeah, he had the injury issue, and he was not the only one this year. 9.5 million these days for a midfielder that if he reaches his potential, could be a starter. You have to take that chance.
If he gets injured again (depending on the type of injury), it's really 50/50 for me. Of course he could become good, but he's not an extraordinary talent by any means, and injury-prone players just suck.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,400
Are there any arguments out there about Juve not signing this kid on a permanent basis?

Small sample size, I will give you that. But you can see the glimpses of what he can become, and for 9.5 million, it makes no sense to not take up that option
If Asa regains health, Lemina becomes behind him and sturaro on the bench. Rather keep the 10 mill and invest it in a first team material CM/CAM. There is an argument :D

If Asa stays broken then the only way signing Lemina wont make sense is if he has a mediocre run till the end of the season basically becoming a De Ceglie case when given enough time.
 

dolph

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2006
2,599
If Asa regains health, Lemina becomes behind him and sturaro on the bench. Rather keep the 10 mill and invest it in a first team material CM/CAM. There is an argument :D

If Asa stays broken then the only way signing Lemina wont make sense is if he has a mediocre run till the end of the season basically becoming a De Ceglie case when given enough time.
The only reason not to buy Lemina would be if he is seen as an injury prone player by our medical staff. Otherwise it would be ridicoulous to pass on a talent like that for 10 mio. We could sell Sturaro for 15-20 mio. and get Lemina for 10 mio. Make some money and get the far superior player. Sturaro is a good player but nothing special. Lemina has the abilities to become a beast of a defensive minded CM or DM. Anybody who has ever played football or followed football should be able to see the difference in potential between the two, small sample size or not.
 

dolph

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2006
2,599
we aint selling Sturaro
Probably not but we should. He is young and I could see one of the midtable teams in the PL go crazy and offer a crazy amount of money for him. If we get a decent offer we should sell him. Loose a good squad player like Sturaro and Invest the money in someone WHO could potentiale make a difference in a team like Juves.
 

Ocelot

Midnight Marauder
Jul 13, 2013
18,943
Probably not but we should. He is young and I could see one of the midtable teams in the PL go crazy and offer a crazy amount of money for him. If we get a decent offer we should sell him. Loose a good squad player like Sturaro and Invest the money in someone WHO could potentiale make a difference in a team like Juves.
No we definitely shouldn't, he's a very reliable young back-up CM with the potential to become more and has already proved extremely instrumental in two of the biggest games we've had the past one and a half seasons, and that with the limited playtime he had.
 

dolph

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2006
2,599
No we definitely shouldn't, he's a very reliable young back-up CM with the potential to become more and has already proved extremely instrumental in two of the biggest games we've had the past one and a half seasons, and that with the limited playtime he had.
He is a reliable back up. But if hes marketprice is indeed 20 mio as suggested by the papers in the winter mercato, then we should cash in on him and get someone with potentiel to be a starter like Diawara from Bologna.
I think the intervention in the Real game and the goal against Bayern has made people overrate Sturaros contribution to the team. He has had plenty of mediocre games in between. Like at the start of the season where he was absolutely shit and everybody wanted hes contract terminated.
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
22,606
If some EPL club is dumb enough to splash 20-25m on technically limited player like Sturaro then hell yeah, I'd be down for selling him. I appreciate his grinta but we need mid capable of contributing in both phases of our game. He's good enough for the bench though, but for the above sum it's silly to keep him. imho
 

dolph

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2006
2,599
If some EPL club is dumb enough to splash 20-25m on technically limited player like Sturaro then hell yeah, I'd be down for selling him. I appreciate his grinta but we need mid capable of contributing in both phases of our game. He's good enough for the bench though, but for the above sum it's silly to keep him. imho
Agreed 100 %
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,400
The only reason not to buy Lemina would be if he is seen as an injury prone player by our medical staff. Otherwise it would be ridicoulous to pass on a talent like that for 10 mio. We could sell Sturaro for 15-20 mio. and get Lemina for 10 mio. Make some money and get the far superior player. Sturaro is a good player but nothing special. Lemina has the abilities to become a beast of a defensive minded CM or DM. Anybody who has ever played football or followed football should be able to see the difference in potential between the two, small sample size or not.
I would never trade Lemina for sturaro. Sturaro is limited yes in that he doesn't have a wide range of different skills but he has shown very good maturity and reliability at an early age. With him, we know exactly what we will get in the short term and in the long term he could be a beast ball winner as he grows even more. Its not exactly a good analogy but Gattuso was also very limited (would never even make a good run into the box) but he perfected the one or two skills that he had. Now sturaro might never be as good as Gattuso anytime soon but he has potential to grow and is already reliable in the short term. You can't go wrong with sturaro because there is no risk involved. If he develops into a Gattuso (i know its unlikely he will get that good at defending) then you will have a world class player worthy of a starting spot, if not then at the very worst you have a reliable substitute player for life.

In contrast, with Lemina there is a risk simply because he has not proved himself at all. The sample size is extremely important in evaluating a footballer. There are countless footballers who have shown flashes of brilliance and then turned out to be mediocre. We saw that with Giovinco and De Ceglie who both looked very good at a young age and had brilliant devastating games early on much better than anything Lemina has done yet. When they did get a long run of games we saw that their devastating games were flukes and the supposed wide range of skillset that we thought they had turned out to not be there. With a small sample size you just cannot really know whether they have a wide skills set or not.

The key point is this. The process of identifying that someone has a particular skill is by measuring how often they have displayed it over a large sample of chances. How do you identify the skills possessed by a player when you have barely seen him play if possessing a skill means successfully performing it over a large sample? By definition you can't know what skills the player actually has.

Inter learned the lesson with Santon. We learned the same lesson with Amauri. He seemed like he had dribbling skills, flair and the ability to score headers. After seeing him on the pitch for a long time we realized that they were false flags and that the only skill he really had is the heading ability. Heading was the only skill he successfully performed consistently when a large sample was taken, the rest of the skills turned out to be flukes. Looking only at the initial first small sample, you would think that he had Ibra-like skills. The first few appearances are a very weak indicator of a player's skills set.

To be clear, no one is arguing that Lemina does not have goal scoring skills or penetrative passing skills. What I am arguing is that it is too soon to judge. He might demonstrate that he has a wide range of skills and he might not. We do not know because the very mechanism of measuring whether someone has a skill requires a large sample by definition.

By his first few performances the most you could say is that there are weak indications that he has a wide range of skills. With Lemina there is thus the risk of making a hasty generalization from the small sample. With Sturaro that risk is a lot smaller. Given that we all agree that either player should have a substitute role at most (for now) and that a first team material CM should be bought, therefore if we had to sell one to keep the other then we should keep Sturaro.
 

Hydde

Minimiliano Tristelli
Mar 6, 2003
38,710
No we definitely shouldn't, he's a very reliable young back-up CM with the potential to become more and has already proved extremely instrumental in two of the biggest games we've had the past one and a half seasons, and that with the limited playtime he had.
In the same way we have defensive and offensive fullbacks, its a must to keep bulldozers defensive cms like sturaro. At least one of them wouldnt hurt, for tactical reasons. I also think he should stay

He is a reliable back up. But if hes marketprice is indeed 20 mio as suggested by the papers in the winter mercato, then we should cash in on him and get someone with potentiel to be a starter like Diawara from Bologna.
I think the intervention in the Real game and the goal against Bayern has made people overrate Sturaros contribution to the team. He has had plenty of mediocre games in between. Like at the start of the season where he was absolutely $#@! and everybody wanted hes contract terminated.
Judging the players from our early season is never a good argument because we were in the twilight dimension practically: injuries, allegri doing bollocks and everyone playing like shid.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,400
If some EPL club is dumb enough to splash 20-25m on technically limited player like Sturaro then hell yeah, I'd be down for selling him. I appreciate his grinta but we need mid capable of contributing in both phases of our game. He's good enough for the bench though, but for the above sum it's silly to keep him. imho
What if (hypothetically) you had to sell one to keep one (Lemina vs sturaro) knowing that whoever stays is just a bench player for the next couple of seasons?
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
59,259
I would never trade Lemina for sturaro. Sturaro is limited yes in that he doesn't have a wide range of different skills but he has shown very good maturity and reliability at an early age. With him, we know exactly what we will get in the short term and in the long term he could be a beast ball winner as he grows even more. Its not exactly a good analogy but Gattuso was also very limited (would never even make a good run into the box) but he perfected the one or two skills that he had. Now sturaro might never be as good as Gattuso anytime soon but he has potential to grow and is already reliable in the short term. You can't go wrong with sturaro because there is no risk involved. If he develops into a Gattuso (i know its unlikely he will get that good at defending) then you will have a world class player worthy of a starting spot, if not then at the very worst you have a reliable substitute player for life.

In contrast, with Lemina there is a risk simply because he has not proved himself at all. The sample size is extremely important in evaluating a footballer. There are countless footballers who have shown flashes of brilliance and then turned out to be mediocre. We saw that with Giovinco and De Ceglie who both looked very good at a young age and had brilliant devastating games early on much better than anything Lemina has done yet. When they did get a long run of games we saw that their devastating games were flukes and the supposed wide range of skillset that we thought they had turned out to not be there. With a small sample size you just cannot really know whether they have a wide skills set or not.

The key point is this. The process of identifying that someone has a particular skill is by measuring how often they have displayed it over a large sample of chances. How do you identify the skills possessed by a player when you have barely seen him play if possessing a skill means successfully performing it over a large sample? By definition you can't know what skills the player actually has.

Inter learned the lesson with Santon. We learned the same lesson with Amauri. He seemed like he had dribbling skills, flair and the ability to score headers. After seeing him on the pitch for a long time we realized that they were false flags and that the only skill he really had is the heading ability. Heading was the only skill he successfully performed consistently when a large sample was taken, the rest of the skills turned out to be flukes. Looking only at the initial first small sample, you would think that he had Ibra-like skills. The first few appearances are a very weak indicator of a player's skills set.

To be clear, no one is arguing that Lemina does not have goal scoring skills or penetrative passing skills. What I am arguing is that it is too soon to judge. He might demonstrate that he has a wide range of skills and he might not. We do not know because the very mechanism of measuring whether someone has a skill requires a large sample by definition.

By his first few performances the most you could say is that there are weak indications that he has a wide range of skills. With Lemina there is thus the risk of making a hasty generalization from the small sample. With Sturaro that risk is a lot smaller. Given that we all agree that either player should have a substitute role at most (for now) and that a first team material CM should be bought, therefore if we had to sell one to keep the other then we should keep Sturaro.
Alot of words, but nothing of it makes any sense whatsoever.
 

Vlad

In Allegri We Trust
May 23, 2011
22,606
@Hist

Gattuso was entirely different beat altogether. He could even take on a player and dribble past him, in addition to being phisically above 90% of players in football back then. He would consistenly provide his team with extraordinary defensive work, where he would intercept and tackle the living shit out of opponent's players. He was miles ahead of Stu in every aspect of the game. His presence was felt in the middle and his impact was much more tangible. I don't have issues with Stu as a part time player, but would he be fine with this role and couldn't we aim for more reliable backup for the sum allegedly floating around for him. Diawara, Donsah are just a few names that spring to my mind that would be affordable for inferior sum, but have higher potential and might command a starting spot at one point.

- - - Updated - - -

What if (hypothetically) you had to sell one to keep one (Lemina vs sturaro) knowing that whoever stays is just a bench player for the next couple of seasons?
I'd keep Lemina. No doubt in my mind that he's superior player.
 

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