But the difference here is, the release of this dying terrorist shouldn't lead to the loss of innocent lives, unless the reports are wrong and he's still a healthy individual.
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Lockerbie bomber released (2 Viewers)
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Back then, it was just England, Aaron.
Scotland has always been friendly with France.
I know what you're saying and I don't take issue with individual Americans criticising something.
What I do object to is people in the US Government criticising other country's foreign policy. It's high time America kept it's head down and minded it's own business for a while.
Scotland has always been friendly with France.
I know what you're saying and I don't take issue with individual Americans criticising something.
What I do object to is people in the US Government criticising other country's foreign policy. It's high time America kept it's head down and minded it's own business for a while.
@ Beck:
You still don't have to agree with it. You can think it was a silly idea from a PR standpoint and you can believe that the Scottish government should have thought about those things. I really don't care from a personal standpoint, I find the situation more funny than anything.
That said I do see how people who lost relatives in the bombing might be a little miffed and I believe they have the right to be angry.
I agree with that. People have to realize it's basically political posturing to save face than anything. The US isn't the only government that does this sort of thing (Hugo Chavez anyone?). We're just the most powerful government.
You still don't have to agree with it. You can think it was a silly idea from a PR standpoint and you can believe that the Scottish government should have thought about those things. I really don't care from a personal standpoint, I find the situation more funny than anything.
That said I do see how people who lost relatives in the bombing might be a little miffed and I believe they have the right to be angry.
Back then, it was just England, Aaron.
Scotland has always been friendly with France.
I know what you're saying and I don't take issue with individual Americans criticising something.
What I do object to is people in the US Government criticising other country's foreign policy. It's high time America kept it's head down and minded it's own business for a while.
Scotland has always been friendly with France.
I know what you're saying and I don't take issue with individual Americans criticising something.
What I do object to is people in the US Government criticising other country's foreign policy. It's high time America kept it's head down and minded it's own business for a while.
Actually, and sadly, it's not me who really doesn't get it - America is perfectly entitled to criticise, but they expect the world to listen and take note...and then dismisses all criticism of itself. It then claims the moral high ground, with any such criticism classed as an anti-American rant...that's, by any definition of the word, hypocritical...(your effectively playing that card now, whether you realise it or not...dismissing the writer as effectively being anti-American (when I couldn't be any further from that descriptio) so it's OK not to address the subject matter..you may not have realised it , but you haven't addressed the topic...was the attack on Tripoli legal?...if yes, was this then an act of state sponsered terrorism..if not, why not? Rather than replying in the negative, be positive and supply reasoning as to why it wasn't illegal...that's all I'm asking...maybe your right, I have no particular viewpoint, only setting the questions - if we can't get any Americans to tell us their views, then we will remain in the dark.
...and simply dismissing Americas actions as 'messing up on occassion'...is, well, not helping your case. I know your probably don't mean to be dismissive of these actions and your just being a bit easy with the words since it's a soccer forum, but it's a powerful topic, and needs more thought
Nice one Doc, I like it...Americans indeed can say whatever the hell they like when the rest of the world does dumb things...and usually do...and being criticised purely based on your nationality isn't unique to Americans...such as being a Scot who is against the release of al-Maghrai but being tared on the likes of CNN, by senior US politicians, and the Head of the Joint Chief of Staff, as being in bed with Tehran.
We're not taking this seriously, are we?
Yup, agee with that
...and simply dismissing Americas actions as 'messing up on occassion'...is, well, not helping your case. I know your probably don't mean to be dismissive of these actions and your just being a bit easy with the words since it's a soccer forum, but it's a powerful topic, and needs more thought
Nice one Doc, I like it...Americans indeed can say whatever the hell they like when the rest of the world does dumb things...and usually do...and being criticised purely based on your nationality isn't unique to Americans...such as being a Scot who is against the release of al-Maghrai but being tared on the likes of CNN, by senior US politicians, and the Head of the Joint Chief of Staff, as being in bed with Tehran.
We're not taking this seriously, are we?
Yup, agee with that
...as I wrote and admitted previously, Britain thought only about number one...itself...and they made no attempt to claim anything other than this...I'm not aware however of breaching any similar law to that currently in existance in the US relating to attempting, or succedding, in taking out a political enemy in peace time...such laws and concepts are a relatively new thing...seventeeth and eighteenth century examples are stretching these concepts too far though...totaly different world and moral standards today... in those days Britain wouldn't bother with any claims of anti-Britishness...they would just dump a fleet of the coast of any offending country and bombard the living daylights of their capital, caring little, if anything, about civilian casualties...
Unfortunately your not typical of the Americans we get to see and hear...of course they are entitled to their views, but perhaps if there were more voices like yours then progress would be made between your nation and those who are, and those you treat, as enemies...you seem level headed...
Unfortunately your not typical of the Americans we get to see and hear...of course they are entitled to their views, but perhaps if there were more voices like yours then progress would be made between your nation and those who are, and those you treat, as enemies...you seem level headed...
The IRA killed policemen,secret police men and collaborators, true their may have been a handful of innocents killed but they were accidents the black and tans just killed people in general.
The EU is rapidly replacing the USA as a key global actor,or potential Hegemon and as such these frictions are going to beocme more and more obvious as time goes on. The fact of the matter is that the USA rarely if ever looks out for the best interests of the world in general, if they with the power to change thing perpetuate bad situations then their opinion invalidates itslef over time.
The EU is rapidly replacing the USA as a key global actor,or potential Hegemon and as such these frictions are going to beocme more and more obvious as time goes on. The fact of the matter is that the USA rarely if ever looks out for the best interests of the world in general, if they with the power to change thing perpetuate bad situations then their opinion invalidates itslef over time.
To answer your question about the attack on Tripoli being legal... of course not. If the act had occurred today it would have been legal.
Laws are written (at international levels) for the express purpose of being broken. Or so it seems. How many nations actually honor the mandates of the Geneva Convention during wars or International Laws during peace time?
When I said messing up on occasion I meant just that. In our 200 plus years of existence the US has done a lot of good for the world. At the same time we've done some naughty things which probably shouldn't have happened. At the same time, what other country hasn't?
Of course this isn't unique to Americans, but would you rather be a Scot in the US or an American in Europe?
We're not taking this seriously, are we?
Well obviously not. It was an severely outlandish analogy meant to grab your attention and focus you on my actual point. Which you agree with by the way.
Laws are written (at international levels) for the express purpose of being broken. Or so it seems. How many nations actually honor the mandates of the Geneva Convention during wars or International Laws during peace time?
When I said messing up on occasion I meant just that. In our 200 plus years of existence the US has done a lot of good for the world. At the same time we've done some naughty things which probably shouldn't have happened. At the same time, what other country hasn't?
Of course this isn't unique to Americans, but would you rather be a Scot in the US or an American in Europe?
We're not taking this seriously, are we?
I agree with all that. I think one thing people fail to realize is that the US is only 200 odd years old. So we're basically running around doing all the things that the British Empire did before they came back to earth. The only problem is that those actions are now looked at as immoral. Basically Europe has grown up and the US is running around like a bunch of teenagers trying to act like "Billy Bad Ass". Not that this is an excuse for our recent meddling (last 60 years) in foreign affairs or our attempt to spread "manifest destiny" beyond our shores.
As sad as it seems, the world has two choices. Try and place the kids in "time out" (the EU) or wait til we grow up. I think we are beginning to grow up, but there is way too much nationalism flowing through my generation to really make a difference.
It's a shame really. The US could be what we say we are... "the best in the world". But for some reason, we stopped working at getting better after the 1960s. The current population is so sure that the country is fine the way it is that even small changes for the better attract people with guns to informational sessions. Talk about defending mediocrity with ignorance.
As sad as it seems, the world has two choices. Try and place the kids in "time out" (the EU) or wait til we grow up. I think we are beginning to grow up, but there is way too much nationalism flowing through my generation to really make a difference.
It's a shame really. The US could be what we say we are... "the best in the world". But for some reason, we stopped working at getting better after the 1960s. The current population is so sure that the country is fine the way it is that even small changes for the better attract people with guns to informational sessions. Talk about defending mediocrity with ignorance.
...thanks for putting your head above the trenches...many others wouldn't have returned to this thread...going way back to my original issue and now taking it further...as the raid on Tripoli may indeed have been illegal, then those in Tripoli who held a parade celebrating al-Maghrai's release, may, in a perverse way, now hold the moral high ground over the US...why?...not because of the celebrations themselves, but because, unlike the US who didn't offer those who organised and undertook the raid to Libya for judgement, Libya actually complied with the requests of the international community, offered up those accused of these criminal acts, let them suffer their fate at the hands of their accusers, and now they having served the sentence, they come home alive. They may in fact have been celebrating having scored an embarrasing victory in moral responsibility over the US.
This is true...however those who do such acts must accept that if they are on the loosing side, or a weak, unpopular winning side, they'll face a reckoning in the court of the international community...The Hague...still chasing and prosecuting Nazi's today...
True, but it's the way one acts after doing wrong that makes the difference...small things, such as using the word sorry, rather than stating that an act was regretable, can make a massive difference...the US doesn't really seem to have, or opts not to use, any kind of sophistication on this issue...your country invented the saying "sorry for your loss"...your diplomats could perhaps use this term rather than "it is with regret"...
Well, at the moment, to be honest, neither...a Scot in Europe is enough for me...we aint too popular in the States.
This is true...however those who do such acts must accept that if they are on the loosing side, or a weak, unpopular winning side, they'll face a reckoning in the court of the international community...The Hague...still chasing and prosecuting Nazi's today...
True, but it's the way one acts after doing wrong that makes the difference...small things, such as using the word sorry, rather than stating that an act was regretable, can make a massive difference...the US doesn't really seem to have, or opts not to use, any kind of sophistication on this issue...your country invented the saying "sorry for your loss"...your diplomats could perhaps use this term rather than "it is with regret"...
Of course this isn't unique to Americans, but would you rather be a Scot in the US or an American in Europe?
IThe current population is so sure that the country is fine the way it is that even small changes for the better attract people with guns to informational sessions. Talk about defending mediocrity with ignorance.
Oh wait, those aren't changes at all. It's the exact same thing as before.
I've listened to what the main individuals who brought weapons to town hall events had to say, such as the African American individual, and he said it's not just the healthcare proposals they're angry about. What MSNBC and the like doesn't tell us is much of the outrage is due to how the government is in the pockets of the banks and Wall Street.
I used to be against the second Amendment, but now I think it's healthy for people to exercise their rights. After all, if we don't, we are bound to lose them. Everybody wants some sort of change, yet they fail to realize that there has been a lot of change throughout our history, and much of it has been to our detriment. So we have to be careful how we proceed here.
If you bring a gun to a town hall meeting you're a fucking idiot. Bottom line. You only bring a gun when you're prepared to shoot someone.
I quit watching news ages ago. There is no reason to. People are just going to get worked up over nothing (actually all the wrong things) and things will stay exactly the same. Glenn Beck's FEMA camps, Alex Jones's globalizm, and Limbaugh's socialist healthcare are all just minor distractions to keep people from realizing the truth.
I quit watching news ages ago. There is no reason to. People are just going to get worked up over nothing (actually all the wrong things) and things will stay exactly the same. Glenn Beck's FEMA camps, Alex Jones's globalizm, and Limbaugh's socialist healthcare are all just minor distractions to keep people from realizing the truth.
Actually, much of what Alex Jones covers is true. The end result of what he covers is what is debatable, such as FEMA Camps are only in place to kill American citizens. The globalism threat is in no way a "conspiracy theory", as David Rockefeller admitted himself, "Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure -- one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."
But you won't hear anything about this stuff if you turn on the TV. The real problem with this country is people are too consumed with the mainstream media and are fooled by the left-right paradigm.
But you won't hear anything about this stuff if you turn on the TV. The real problem with this country is people are too consumed with the mainstream media and are fooled by the left-right paradigm.
The people showing up to these meetings with holstered firearms are 2nd Amendment advocates, the right to bear arms. There is a growing movement in this country, called the Patriot Movement, whose principles include adhering to the Constitution, keeping a free market, separation of corporations and state, et cetera. basically, they're free market or progressive Libertarians, just like Ron Paul. Obama is probably the most anti-2nd Amendment President in history, so people are trying to protect their rights by using them.
Those in the Patriot Movement seem to be good people, but they are demonized by the American media and government. In fact, Homeland Security includes them as possible terrorists.
The town hall meetings have been getting a lot of press because people are angry and causing scenes at them, some going off on tirades in the faces of others. The media is trying to tell us that these people are all far right-wing nutjobs who want to dismantle Obama's healthcare plan, but that is not the entire truth. Sure, there are a lot of nuts out there, but many of those who attend are angry because they're jobless as the government bails out bankers and other criminals. It's not just about healthcare.
Those in the Patriot Movement seem to be good people, but they are demonized by the American media and government. In fact, Homeland Security includes them as possible terrorists.
The town hall meetings have been getting a lot of press because people are angry and causing scenes at them, some going off on tirades in the faces of others. The media is trying to tell us that these people are all far right-wing nutjobs who want to dismantle Obama's healthcare plan, but that is not the entire truth. Sure, there are a lot of nuts out there, but many of those who attend are angry because they're jobless as the government bails out bankers and other criminals. It's not just about healthcare.
Btw, did you check this out?
Pastor Of Gun-Toter At Obama Event Prayed For Obama To Die
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme..._gun-toter_at_obama_event_day_before_even.php
Pastors are getting in all sorts of hot water these days...
But I'll disagree with you as to the motivations of these nut jobs. I think there are a lot of people still in denial that Obama is president. So they will believe anything that fits their preconceived psyche about him: he wasn't born in the U.S., he wants to kill grandma, etc., etc.
The conversation is all wrong, IMO. Humanity is filled with stories of people who believe in things that aren't real because they don't fit their belief system -- so they reject all rational data. The thing is that we shouldn't be trying to convince those people to be rational. No, these people are ripe for swindling. They are complete scam artist bait -- whether that be financial scams (donate to a cause) or religious leader scams (David Koresh or the Heaven's Gate cult).
The best way to put Darwinism in action is to take someone who believes in the ridiculous and use it against them to profit from their foolishness. It's cynical, but that's the best solution I've come up with. People that blind do not deserve a place in a functioning, modern society and economy. Back to the oven with them where they belong. I have no tolerance for idiocy.
Pastor Of Gun-Toter At Obama Event Prayed For Obama To Die
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme..._gun-toter_at_obama_event_day_before_even.php
Pastors are getting in all sorts of hot water these days...
But I'll disagree with you as to the motivations of these nut jobs. I think there are a lot of people still in denial that Obama is president. So they will believe anything that fits their preconceived psyche about him: he wasn't born in the U.S., he wants to kill grandma, etc., etc.
The conversation is all wrong, IMO. Humanity is filled with stories of people who believe in things that aren't real because they don't fit their belief system -- so they reject all rational data. The thing is that we shouldn't be trying to convince those people to be rational. No, these people are ripe for swindling. They are complete scam artist bait -- whether that be financial scams (donate to a cause) or religious leader scams (David Koresh or the Heaven's Gate cult).
The best way to put Darwinism in action is to take someone who believes in the ridiculous and use it against them to profit from their foolishness. It's cynical, but that's the best solution I've come up with. People that blind do not deserve a place in a functioning, modern society and economy. Back to the oven with them where they belong. I have no tolerance for idiocy.
Of course, there will be people like that who attend such meetings. But to lump everyone into that same category of "birther" or "racist" is being out of touch with reality.
But yeah, these religious nuts sure do give the Patriot Movement and Americans in general a bad name. Just another reason to purge ourselves of that "Holiness".
By the way, I listened to an interview with Chris the Black gun-toter, and he was in no way advocating violence to Obama or anybody, so the article is another "guilty by association" hit piece, much like that from the right with regards to Obama and Wright.
See, both parties are the same. Same old tricks.
But yeah, these religious nuts sure do give the Patriot Movement and Americans in general a bad name. Just another reason to purge ourselves of that "Holiness".
By the way, I listened to an interview with Chris the Black gun-toter, and he was in no way advocating violence to Obama or anybody, so the article is another "guilty by association" hit piece, much like that from the right with regards to Obama and Wright.
See, both parties are the same. Same old tricks.
Could you imagine George W Bush giving a sh*t about what the public thinks of his ideas at some town hall? Hell no. He'd just tell us to bend over and take it.
Some things should not be debated, some things should. Problem with the Democrats in office is that they're too much of a bunch of concensus-driven pussies when it comes to dealing with the fringes.
What I would give to hear someone in this administration say, "I don't give a rat's ass about what you think."
Some things should not be debated, some things should. Problem with the Democrats in office is that they're too much of a bunch of concensus-driven pussies when it comes to dealing with the fringes.
What I would give to hear someone in this administration say, "I don't give a rat's ass about what you think."