Lack of consistency from Lippi might be our undoing (1 Viewer)

gray

Senior Member
Moderator
Apr 22, 2003
30,260
++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
I am sorry but why is drawing at home to a team that came 8th last season a good result? If you are Italian champions 2 seasons in a row and cl finalists the previous season, you have to send out a lesson to your rivals that you mean business and in so doing you have to beat them.
There are very few teams in the world who can sustain such a string of results. I was simply saying that if we're gonna be undefeated for 10 games, and only one of them is a draw... there's no harm in that team being Roma.

And when I read fellow Juve supporters saying they are happy to draw at home with Roma then thats disappointing.
The result in itself isn't a good thing, but if our one draw out of 10 games is gonna be against Roma, then that's not a disgrace.
 

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Glen

Junior Member
Aug 26, 2002
157
We won't be getting entertainment in the doses many want regardless.
We're simply much too cynical for that. Well- Lippi is at least, and some of our core players almost have it in their DNA by now.

When we've scored 1 or 2 we'll fall back some and look at what the opposition sticks to us, then we'll absorb and hit them on the break. Should they score we will try and attack again.
I would prefer if we took the mantle all match long every time, but I've given up all hope of that. On the other hand I think we have to admire the efficiency we do show when the game is open, just like we have to admire the results produced. We scored 4 quality goals against Sociedad. We really did.

The problem as it remains is for me that we can be in problems until we get ahead too often. There's not enough natural creativity in our team. At least there's rarely enough on the field. In my view we have the elements needed to play much nicer and more inventive football, but we have to put thosee gus on the field, and they have to be allowed to go for it. That said- even if we get more creativity involved- I don't think Lippi is going to change the format around. He'll still be about control over exuberance.

We'll see. Lippi is trying lots of stuff these days and he's getting much more right than wrong.

Denco: Who is 'happy' with the home draw againt Roma? It has nothing to do with being happy, but with accepting that Roma play great football and have a great team. Forget that that they were 8th last year. They're a brillliant team. We won't win every game, and I'd rather see us draw against a great team than against a weak one. We played poorly for most of that match, and Roma still couldn't create more than 1 real goalscoring chance from open play (which Totti missed 1 on 1 with Gigi). If that's our poor... then it's nice. That doesn't mean anyone's proud that we drew Roma or something.

Slack/chinq: We do agree alot on what we would 'like' to see. I just think you, while painting a rather grim image of the visual quality of our performances thus far, forget that we are a team that does what's enough. Contrary to Inter that spills blood to do anything. We have been behind only twice this year. At Chievo and Olympiakos. Eventually... we won both anyway. On difficult grounds. It's a very cynical way we approach things and it would be great if we tried to please more, but I rarely get the impression that we couldn't do more if we wanted to.
Eventually... it's the Lippi way, and to be honest I would not want anyone else just to please my own aesthetics. His record is simply too great for that in my opinion.
 

Hydde

Minimiliano Tristelli
Mar 6, 2003
38,709
++ [ originally posted by Glen ] ++
Eventually... it's the Lippi way, and to be honest I would not want anyone else just to please my own aesthetics. His record is simply too great for that in my opinion.
I like how it sounded.

I really want to see juve playing good football, but right now.. is not possible because lippi´s tactics. So far im happy with our results,, and i prefer always results and then if it possible, show. (errgh im so lippi mimded).

If things continue working for us.. welcome.
 

Layce Erayce

Senior Member
Aug 11, 2002
9,116
well i wouldnt mind rooting for playing open football once we've done everything and won everything we can.

playing open football has its risks and the main risk is displeasing fans(read- fickle bastards who seem to forget everything important and remember everything useless, ponder everything bad and negative and let everything good go right over their heads, want to have their cake, eat it, own the patissiere, and have it make the best cake in town, not to mention attract the most customers. the moment either one of these are let down, they fire the baker)

we need to make sure not to displease the fans by playing good football but not winning trophies
 

Hydde

Minimiliano Tristelli
Mar 6, 2003
38,709
++ [ originally posted by [LAC] ] ++
well i wouldnt mind rooting for playing open football once we've done everything and won everything we can.

playing open football has its risks and the main risk is displeasing fans(read- fickle bastards who seem to forget everything important and remember everything useless, ponder everything bad and negative and let everything good go right over their heads, want to have their cake, eat it, own the patissiere, and have it make the best cake in town, not to mention attract the most customers. the moment either one of these are let down, they fire the baker)

we need to make sure not to displease the fans by playing good football but not winning trophies
:LOL:

Just excellent your example!
 

gray

Senior Member
Moderator
Apr 22, 2003
30,260
++ [ originally posted by [LAC] ] ++
well i wouldnt mind rooting for playing open football once we've done everything and won everything we can.

So it's enough to win every competition just once? Hell no, we should strive to be the champions in every single competition we play in.

playing open football has its risks and the main risk is displeasing fans(read- fickle bastards who seem to forget everything important and remember everything useless, ponder everything bad and negative and let everything good go right over their heads, want to have their cake, eat it, own the patissiere, and have it make the best cake in town, not to mention attract the most customers. the moment either one of these are let down, they fire the baker)

we need to make sure not to displease the fans by playing good football but not winning trophies
The thing that sets Juve apart is their ambition to win things. We're no mediocre bakery. As the customers of the best bakery in town would expect the bakery to keep improving their products and services, without losing the aesthetic appeal of the interior decorating, we as Juve fans have the right to expect some attacking, flowing, attractive football and still get good results.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
++ [ originally posted by Glen ] ++
We won't be getting entertainment in the doses many want regardless.
We're simply much too cynical for that. Well- Lippi is at least, and some of our core players almost have it in their DNA by now.

When we've scored 1 or 2 we'll fall back some and look at what the opposition sticks to us, then we'll absorb and hit them on the break. Should they score we will try and attack again.
I would prefer if we took the mantle all match long every time, but I've given up all hope of that. On the other hand I think we have to admire the efficiency we do show when the game is open, just like we have to admire the results produced. We scored 4 quality goals against Sociedad. We really did.

The problem as it remains is for me that we can be in problems until we get ahead too often. There's not enough natural creativity in our team. At least there's rarely enough on the field. In my view we have the elements needed to play much nicer and more inventive football, but we have to put thosee gus on the field, and they have to be allowed to go for it. That said- even if we get more creativity involved- I don't think Lippi is going to change the format around. He'll still be about control over exuberance.

We'll see. Lippi is trying lots of stuff these days and he's getting much more right than wrong.

Denco: Who is 'happy' with the home draw againt Roma? It has nothing to do with being happy, but with accepting that Roma play great football and have a great team. Forget that that they were 8th last year. They're a brillliant team. We won't win every game, and I'd rather see us draw against a great team than against a weak one. We played poorly for most of that match, and Roma still couldn't create more than 1 real goalscoring chance from open play (which Totti missed 1 on 1 with Gigi). If that's our poor... then it's nice. That doesn't mean anyone's proud that we drew Roma or something.

Slack/chinq: We do agree alot on what we would 'like' to see. I just think you, while painting a rather grim image of the visual quality of our performances thus far, forget that we are a team that does what's enough. Contrary to Inter that spills blood to do anything. We have been behind only twice this year. At Chievo and Olympiakos. Eventually... we won both anyway. On difficult grounds. It's a very cynical way we approach things and it would be great if we tried to please more, but I rarely get the impression that we couldn't do more if we wanted to.
Eventually... it's the Lippi way, and to be honest I would not want anyone else just to please my own aesthetics. His record is simply too great for that in my opinion.
Hi Glen, Great to see you back:D, Remember when we were discussing last season and I told you that Lippi essentially looks out for functionality not fantasy and you told me that this season, we would get a playmaker, oh well unfortunately I was proved right

Well first of if it was in Rome then 2-2 is a credible result but at home, its not so good, and I won't go as far as calling Roma a great team, they are good quite alright. You said Roma did not create a clear cut opportunity from open play, my memory is fading rapidly due to gettin on a bit:D but I don't remember us doing the same either as both of our goals where scrappy

Anyways overall, I am content with our play but like everybody else, frustratted with our always giving our opponents a way back into a game, the way we are going we would one day go 5-0 up and end up 5-5

I am not exaggerating here cos 4-0 up against Real Soceidad and they scored 2 goals , had some more good chances and if Nihat, Kovacevic and Depedro were left on the pitch only heaven knows what would have happened

3-0 against Ancona and they just stopped playing and with stronger officials might have been 3-3

Started very well against Roma and then did not play at all in the second half

We are becoming a bit like Man united in a way that we score goals no matter how we are playing but its now the loss of concentration thats a bit worrying
 

Glen

Junior Member
Aug 26, 2002
157
++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
1: Hi Glen, Great to see you back:D, Remember when we were discussing last season and I told you that Lippi essentially looks out for functionality not fantasy and you told me that this season, we would get a playmaker, oh well unfortunately I was proved right

2: Well first of if it was in Rome then 2-2 is a credible result but at home, its not so good, and I won't go as far as calling Roma a great team, they are good quite alright. You said Roma did not create a clear cut opportunity from open play, my memory is fading rapidly due to gettin on a bit:D but I don't remember us doing the same either as both of our goals where scrappy

3: Anyways overall, I am content with our play but like everybody else, frustratted with our always giving our opponents a way back into a game, the way we are going we would one day go 5-0 up and end up 5-5

4: I am not exaggerating here cos 4-0 up against Real Soceidad and they scored 2 goals , had some more good chances and if Nihat, Kovacevic and Depedro were left on the pitch only heaven knows what would have happened
1. Thank you Denco :cool: . Yeah- I do recall. I thought we would at least get a back up for Nedved seing how we relied upon him so heavily and paid dearly in his absence... While it will be evident from my previous post that I agree with your comment on Lippi being about functionality rather then fantasy- I think it should be remembered that functionality CAN be fantastic. When we look back to some of the games we played in the period from 1996-1998- there were some awesome games there. Same with the Real game of last season. But you ahve to have a group of players who are all accustumed to that style of game, and we ahve had rather heavy squad rotation so far. It takes time, and we've only played 6 serieA matches. there's a slong way to go yet, and we usually only start really clicking in January don't we? One more possible 'excuse' for Lippi is that Miccoli got that appendicitis thing in the premiere, and before he came back DP got injured. In terms of creativity and delighting the crowd... those two are the players we look to aren't they? Nedved's full throttle and passes like his two assists against Sociedad or the goals against Olympiakos makes him our go-to guy more than the fantasistas, but he's not a player to conjure magic like the two midgets :). We have simply been deprived of our magicians because of injury- and because Lippi still hessitates to really give Maresca the nod (because- he is the playmaker we did take back. But he needs to prove his promise at the big stage).

2. Very, very few teams win every home game in the season you know. We disagree about Roma's quality as well. I believe they have at least 4 players who would automatically command starting positions in our team and 4-5 more who would be strong contenders. Their starting lineup is simply a cracker in my view, and I fully believe they'll be our worst rivals this season. But we'll see.
As to us not creating chances either- well... not many, but Di Vaio did have a shot from inside the area after a Trez nod back; Nedved did shoot just outside the post at the dawn of the second half and Montero had a 100% header after a corner in the first. Roma played better, but we had the better actual chances for sure. I suppose that's, in a way, part of Lippi's 'concrete' game too. That we may not look all polished and brilliant, but that we'll always create chances. I fail to remember having ever seen Juve score as many goals at this stage as we have this season. Not a single game since the Super Cup have we not scored at least 2.

3. I agree that lack of concentration is a problem, and I also agree that it's difficult to be REALLY down beat about anything after 9 wins and a draw :).

4. We'll never know what would have happened if De Pedro and Nihat had started. I surely agree our job was made easier by them not being there, but we would have been different also. After all- Sociedad did not have much of anything before Tudor scored that own goal, and Lippi made it worse when introducing Montero instead of him I thought. The couple Montero/Iuliano just makes me so uncomfortable, and besides that- Davids and Birindelli instead of Di Vaio and Davids meant that we abandoned the ignititaitve even more. Like Trap at the WC... :( .
That's been a trend too, and I think that, Lippi's substitutions, have as much to do with our late blushes as has lack of concentration, because we have to face the fact that we do not have a central defence that is inpenetrable when under pressure. We simply don't.
Lippi has tinkered with the defence more than ever before, and I don't think we'll see the solidity of old until he decides on one "first duo" down there, which he propably will at some point. At present- I don't know which one it is or should be either, but I believe Legro is surely part of it.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
Interesting that you mentioned the players of Roma that would get into our team, 4 maybe you are right on that score, but conversely arguably Buffon, Thuram, Zambrotta, Davids, Nedved, Dp and probably Trez would get into Roma's first team , thats why I believe at home we should be beating Roma
Interestingly the team might look like this
-----------Buffon------------------------------

-------Thuram--------Samuel-------------Chivu--------------Zambrotta

----------------Emerson----------Nevded------------Davids

-------------------------------------Totti-------------------------

-----------------------------Trez/Montella--------------------Dp

And Leggro, appiah, Camo, Maresca, Miccolli, Dv should have no problems pushing first team action and definitely squad

Slack did say that it might be Lippi's fault that we do tend to fade in final moments of games and he might be right as players who normally are squad players should not have problems with concentration
 

slack

Junior Member
Dec 13, 2002
208
++ [ originally posted by Glen ] ++
Slack/chinq: We do agree alot on what we would 'like' to see. I just think you, while painting a rather grim image of the visual quality of our performances thus far, forget that we are a team that does what's enough. Contrary to Inter that spills blood to do anything. We have been behind only twice this year. At Chievo and Olympiakos. Eventually... we won both anyway. On difficult grounds. It's a very cynical way we approach things and it would be great if we tried to please more, but I rarely get the impression that we couldn't do more if we wanted to.
Eventually... it's the Lippi way, and to be honest I would not want anyone else just to please my own aesthetics. His record is simply too great for that in my opinion.
Alrighty, perhaps we shouldn’t agree so much then :D Gosh, you’re the 1st person I see to draw a smiley outta denco :p

I am certainly a little displeased about aesthetics leading up to Real Sociedad. I can’t agree that we’re a team that ‘just does enough’. That has hindsight imprinted all over by the way of results. To do that, a certain degree of control is a given and I won’t exactly include frequent bail-outs aka individual brilliance as one. In fact, I think its overstated. Quite another problem arises after we ‘think’ we’ve done ‘enough’ (which I’ve just mentioned) and there comes your late scares. Oh yes, we do have quite a lot of them and if the others had it the way we have, well … ? The 3rd concern, which you stated, is that we couldn’t have done more if we wanted. That might be acceptable if we didn’t know better ;) Our capability goes far beyond the current in terms of squad makeup, individual qualities etc. For some reason, we aren’t even remotely close to our potential and that’s disconcerting to say the least.

Anyway, my gripe isn’t about how we mess up with a quarter of a match to go as I believe that’s something time will iron out as the season progresses. Rather, its where we’ve supposedly won the match or more pertinently, how we’ve won it. A slight footballing improvement over the same period last season but not enough to warrant that much difference in results. Results though, inevitably paint a whole different picture that’s hardly as indicative as most would like to think. The flipside, an aspect few are willing to touch on or even contemplate, is that it could have gone either way in some instances. We’re all glad it hasn’t. Luck does play a part and you can say we make our own but banking on it to last the distance won’t get us very far. Making a projection that things will only get better is just what it is - an assumption.

The 96-98 teams had MUCH more than functionality. How would you account for them being more of a collective with arguably inferior quality than now? I don’t have the stats but in those years, I can’t recall a team having a higher turnover (and we’re talking about superstars here) and yet no matter who we stick in (be it a newb or seasoned campaigner) it worked; the transition was almost seamless. Hence, I don’t think players getting accustomed to the style is as much an issue. We have even more of a core presence now than we ever did in those days, unless there’s something wrong with the ‘style’ or ‘system’ perhaps ...

Which brings me back to the final point : what do you expect from the Scudetto winners?

1. Horizontal progression : would you be content to extend/maintain the standard on functionality and wrap things up even earlier than the last?

or

2. Vertical progression : would you rather see the team elevate themselves to a higher level at the risk of some consistency?

or

3. Perverse entertainment : mess up deliberately, give others a headstart, make things more interesting and conclude - damn, we're good! (maybe that's what we're doing eh?)

I prefer the 2. for if not now, when?

That said, I don’t see it happening when Tudor is the 1st freaking midfield choice over Maresca. Again, not because we can’t but more like we won’t … highly annoying.
 

Hydde

Minimiliano Tristelli
Mar 6, 2003
38,709
Dude you remind me the "Architect" guy of matrix reloaded.:blah:

Not offense though! :) IM taking your points.

WE have to work on that "we have done enough, lets wait till the game ends".

We can risk games if we continue doing that.
IM happy with the team so far. We cant do the same as the 96-98 team because we have now totally different players, but we are winning , and not in an ugly way. Thats what matters most.

I really dont think that if we continue playing like this will be disastrous in the future of the season.
Is Lippi the one that must take conscience of what is working and what is not.

We are winning our pints and dominating our enemies.
 

Glen

Junior Member
Aug 26, 2002
157
Busy busy slack. I can't answer all now, but will later ;).
Just one misunderstanding to clear.

++ [ originally posted by slack ] ++
The 3rd concern, which you stated, is that we couldn’t have done more if we wanted. That might be acceptable if we didn’t know better ;) Our capability goes far beyond the current in terms of squad makeup, individual qualities etc. For some reason, we aren’t even remotely close to our potential and that’s disconcerting to say the least.
I believe I used a double negation there - although I admit it wasn't elegant ;). I DO think we have way more to give, and I'd like to see it done as well. It just goes with the cynical part as far as I'm concerned.
If we had made it a priority making the app. 4000 people who paid for a Delle Alpi ticket this weekend (impressive, eh?) real happy... we would have won by a bigger scoreline for sure. But when Lippi inserts Birindelli, Tudor and then Maresca 10 minutes before time... it's a signal of intent, no?
 

hort

New Member
Jun 2, 2003
21
++ [ originally posted by Hasuni Boi ] ++
U know what, ur all a bunch of guys who don't know anything about football.....One day ur saying "ohh that damn Lippi isn't rotating, he's using the same players and getting them tired", and now this.......If u have watched Juve in previous seasons u should now that we have a slow starting team, but when it starts rolling it almost can't be stopped......And one other thing, When Lippi had his first spell in Juve he's trademark was his ablity to rotate the team in best possible way, so what is wrong with u guys, this is the best thing for us to be involved in all competitions, we have the depth, so why not use it?!?!?
I support your idea, u are certainly right.Forza juve and Lippi is great and the best!!!!!!!!!!
 

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