Lack of consistency from Lippi might be our undoing (4 Viewers)

s0ftcore

Senior Member
Jul 13, 2002
568
++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Oh I won't go as far as calling Lippi a dumbass, he just gets a nose bleed now and then especially in Cl finals and in basically big games, its not really peculiar to him alone its got to do with every manager thats regarded as a tactician
You won't really find Fergie changing formations to suit the opposition as he won't even know how so he just basically plays his best team

As for Nedved playing on the left when Davids is at the centre, why would you think that i menat that ? Davids plays in the centre preferably with Appiah or Maresca , Nedved roves and on the left you have Zambrotta and Dp Or DV and Nedved can always drift there when he wants but not pigeon-holed there
I was thinking about the 4-1-2-1 formation, where Davids cannot play behind the strikers, so that's why a flat 4-4-2 came to mind.

So isn't the 4-3-1-2 formation that Lippi plays now allowing Davids to play in his preferred position? However, Davids hasn't really been the same Davids of last season, has he?
 

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Zizou

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2003
3,965
Just finished reading an article (http://www.tgcom.it/ArticoloTgCom/articoli/articolo150537.shtml)

Basically all these articles are saying the same thing, that is praising Juve for their consistency and improvement from last season.

We played 19 from our 25 players. Those 6 are Chimenti (he'll obviously play during the Coppa Italia), Olivera, Zalayeta and Pessotto (they were or still are injured) and Fresi (who is obviously not needed by the club and will most probably be sold or loaned out in January.

We have made 4 more points and 6 more goals than last season and conceded 3 more goals which overall is really good.

As the critics say, whoever plays is doing his job and that means that whoever plays we can expect the same high quality unlike previous years where the reserves where not up to par with the first team regulars.
 

s0ftcore

Senior Member
Jul 13, 2002
568
Some of the reserves are better than our first teamers.

EG: DV or Miccoli > Trez
Maresca > Tach (it's a bit tight, but Maresca is better IMO)
Davids or Camo > Appiah
 

Zizou

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2003
3,965
Those are all debatable. Especially the Davids/Camo > Appiah since Appiah has been one of our most consistent players this season.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
++ [ originally posted by Zizou ] ++
Saying that Juve is in the same league of Inter and Liverpool is really disgraceful.
Whats disgraceful about it, whether you like to hear it or not , they all play pretty boring football at times, yes Juve is probably the most enterprising of the 3 but in entertainment stakes we are no where near Man u nited, Arsenal Real Madrid, Depor , Roma, Lazio ectetc
No one is talking about efectiveness but the entertainment value and those 3 teams mentioned put players in wrong positions
You like many others are interested in the end result and thats fine but whereas you accuse Inter of playing boring football because they do not win tournaments , you excuse Juve of doing the same thng because we do

Who cares about stats when we are talking the way a team plays, the fact of the matter is that we have mastered the art of winning ugly
Yes we are more entertaining this season but the fact still remais is that we are basically a functional team not an entertaining one
Even Liverpool fans would admit that they are playing better this season , just results are not going their way
 

Zizou

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2003
3,965
Which players play in the wrong position? Italian critics are the harshest critics and yet they place us along with Roma as the two teams that play the best football.

I really can't see the similarity between Juve and teams like Liverpool and Inter. Whereas they resort to long ball, we play with short verticalizations that open up defences.

And from the 6 teams you mentioned, none of them except Roma and at times Real have really showed spectacular football.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
Tudor is no midfielder, Davids is not really a left sided midfielder now is he? Appiah is no right winger
Trez is never a lone striker, is Maresca really a holding midfielder?

Are you really saying our football is easier on the eye than that of Arsenal of last season, Manu united, Valencia and Depor at their very best
I don't think so
 

Zizou

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2003
3,965
Tudor has enough technique to play in midfield and he's excellent at contrsating advancing midfielders. Davids and Appiah have played in those positions many times and it's not out of position for them. Maresca plays as holding midfielder with the u-21 (or used to since he's 22 now).

Those teams you mentioned have not done much better than us this season. Have you watched Arsenal-Man utd/Chelsea? Boring games.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
Again you are mixing up results with entertaining football
I am not talking about Arsenal of this season cos franky they have been crap
Yes we have improved in the entertainment factor this season compared to last and especially 2 season ago but if we could put players in their normal positions , we have the capacity to be even better
Well I would never agree on Tudor as a midfileder, he is lousy there and because Davids has made light of playing on the left does not mean its his best position, we would benefit if he plays in the middle as we did when he first arrived but to accommodate Tacchinardi , he h as been shifted to the left
I don't know what you mean by Appiah playing on the right many times as I didnt see much of Brescia to comment

Maresca like Pirlo is a waste as a holding midfielder
 

Zizou

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2003
3,965
I won't comment on those players as they're all debatable in what positions they can play and more a matter of opinion and one's preference, but about Maresca and Pirlo being wasted that is so not true. Ancellotti's invention of playing Pirlo there has really proved a good choice as Pirlo has become the only unsubstitutable player of Milan in midfield. He's really good and has done very well. He's a player I envy and wish we had. Maresca has the same technical ability (and even more when at his best) to do the same in that position.

Just wondering so, what formation would you play to have all the players in their position?
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
--------------------------Buffon----------

-----------Thuram---------Tudor----------Leggrotaglie------Zambrotta

----------------------------Appiah/Maresca-----------Davids------------------


--------------Miccolli/Camo

-----------------------------------------------Nedved------------

--------------------------------------Trez---------------------Dp

If Tudor is injured then I would play Birindelli on the right and Thuram in the middle

If I am playing Miccoli then Appiah would partner Davids whilst if I was playing Camo then Maresca would be my prefered central midfield partner

The reason I am not so keen on Pirlo is that he gives the ball away more than any player I know save for Tacchinardi at his worst
 

Hydde

Minimiliano Tristelli
Mar 6, 2003
38,710
IM not so impressed about tacchi´s last performances...

Appiah was innacurated in the last game...but all of us know that he is a good passer.

The only positive thing of having Maresca as a holding mid...is that we now can start to build our attack since the begginng with the good vision of maresca.....while tacchinardi do his work holding the enemy.

I would prefer the agressivity of davids with the vison of maresca in the mid. Tach is not so good when the time to do precise passes comes. If maresca improves his defensive abilities, he could be much better, but this doesnt mean that his best position is a def mid.

You saw where he always was in the ancona game??. When almost all the guys were attacking...he was almost in the mid line waiting for a counter.
 

slack

Junior Member
Dec 13, 2002
208
Davids is not anywhere near his best because he lacks someone who can adequately cover for him if he decides to push up. This has been one of the many problems since Deschamps left, where Davids used to excel as the left-sided midfielder.

I wouldn’t read too much into mere figures, which Gazzetta etc almost exclusively base their ratings/verdict on. The Italian press is obsessed with results and it isn’t beyond them to base an inaccurate assessment on the back of a good one. While there may be historical evidence on poor early season form, consider the flip-side that it also serves to paper over the cracks until it becomes too late to fix. There’s been a dangerous presumption going on that if we win when playing badly, we’re destined for greatness in the near future when or more appropriately, IF we play better. Sweeping things under the carpet to acquit the current performances and making that kinda projection is asking for trouble.

This part could make for interesting discussion. While we’re on charting form peak and training regime, this is the same method that ensured Juve having one of the highest attrition rate in players. The stats aren’t pretty. I was told Peruzzi was the only top keeper who spent about 1/3 of a season injured. Consider the nature of the injuries (muscular) to Esnaider, O’Neill, Sousa, Salas, Tudor, DP and many others – is there such a thing as recurring bad luck? O’Neill was a superb player (Cagliari, I believe) with tons of skill but he was never fit after he came to Turin. Case in point – ADP. For anyone who followed his Juve career, you’d have noticed how the player evolved physically and how it coincides with a gradual loss of agility. The 94’ version was possibly the best player in the world and his nimbleness had as much to do with it as his technique. However, he was deemed too weak to survive the defensive minefield that’s called the Serie A. The tradeoff? Juve evidently felt that puffing him up is the way to go. While it seemed like a stroke of genius when the initial results bore fruit in the 97/98’ version, he snapped in 99’ and it would be 3 years later before he bore some semblance to his former glorious self. Another obvious case is the physique of Birindelli before/after he joined. Hence, I guess we should enjoy the original Miccoli for now coz he isn’t likely to maintain his current style for very long if Ventrone has his way. To summarise, given the power-play philosophy that Juve adopts, this necessarily catalyzes the development of a player and in most cases, accelerates their decline as well … and that’s ONLY for survivors. Apart from what has been covered, perhaps that’s why technique-based football has never been a reality. Thoughts?

Back to the original discussion.

Zizou, I disagree with a lot of your points.

Punting long balls to our strikers IS our players’ favourite pastime, no matter if the targets are the likes of ADP/Miccoli or Trez. I’d rate us as the 2nd (behind Inter) worst football team to do that and thus, to watch amongst the top 6. Why oh why do we do that?

1. Technique – can’t keep hold of possession so get rid of it asap?
2. Creativity – clueless on what to do with the ball?
3. System – clueless on what they can do/supposed to do in a team? Wrong players in wrong positions fit in here.
4. Fitness – with superior condition, why bother with possession when you can easily recover it via battering the opposition into submission? Its not like having possession does us any good anyway due to 1-3.

Appiah was good in pre-season but has been consistently mediocre in competitive games.

Tudor is NOT a midfielder by any stretch of the imagination. What he offers better than any midfielder we have now is presence, which is critical (another void left by Deschamps) Our entire squad of midfielders has a bit of everything each and I don’t know what perverse pleasure Lippi derives from messing with half of them. Maresca is an excellent all-rounder whom I’m particularly impressed with in terms of vision and range of passing. He has the qualities of Sousa, so very crucial back then in a recessed midfield position currently hogged by Tach. With a Jugovic, we’re well set to kick some ass in style. In fact, I think Davids is capable of filling in except for the fact that he’s detailed to primarily break up attacks/mop up the residue instead. I’d like to see a midfield of Maresca (no defensive slouch like Pirlo is) prompting/dictating from the back and shielded by 2 marauders in Davids and Appiah.

Pirlo’s certainly a liability on the backfoot but he’s highly dangerous in active play as well as set-pieces (God knows why isn’t Maresca taking ours) In addition, he’s worked on his ability to keep the ball, an area where Milan are already experts in. In fact, even Gattuso is looking like a world-beater with a vastly improved all-round game and he’s a prime reason (together with a defence which can take care of itself) why Pirlo can be afforded that role. I have serious doubts whether we can beat them again with the same set-up we used in Turin last season.
 

Zizou

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2003
3,965
Denco Miccoli would be out of position there ;) Miccoli is better off as a forward, whenever he was played on right wing he did not deliver.

And where's Montero? He's sitll our best central defender.
 

denco

Superior Being
Jul 12, 2002
4,679
++ [ originally posted by Zizou ] ++
Denco Miccoli would be out of position there ;) Miccoli is better off as a forward, whenever he was played on right wing he did not deliver.

And where's Montero? He's sitll our best central defender.
I knew you were gonna say that you doubting Thomas:D Miccolli likes drifting to the right and he is the only person in the my team who is slightly not woefully out of position
I would have to disagree there on Montero as he is not our best defender in the centre of defence, that would be Thuram, and he has not been the most impressive this seaon that would be Leggrotaglie
Trying toplay offside and being strecthed by Poggi, Hubner and Ganz, players older than he is, does not make for good viewing

Slack --- You deserve a medal for your absolutely brilliant analysis, most especially the Dp situation where Juventus have actually turned one of the most skilful technical gifted players I have seen coming from not just Italy but Europe into a more muscular injury prone especially muscular injuries, slower version of what he might have turned out to be. Its okay for players who do not rely so much on technique but what was done to him was terrible and unfortunately I am seeing a bit in Cassano as well, as he seems to have bulked up too

Again that tandem of Sousa and Deschamps is still woefully lacking in this team and only heaven knows why we got rid of imo one of the best all round midfielders I have seen in Jugovic

Again I keep maintaining that Maresca is underused while Tacchinardi is overused

As for Miccolli , he does look stocky but it would be wrong if the add more muscles to him , he is not as technically gifted as Dp but he is explosive and exciting, please do not take away that from him too
 

s0ftcore

Senior Member
Jul 13, 2002
568
Guys, while you are discussing about players being underused and overused and us playing non-creative football, I would like to talk about the main topic. Don't worry, it's sorta related to your discussion... I think. :D

++ [ originally posted by Football Italia because apparently is came from there ] ++
Juventus boss Marcello Lippi has confirmed that he will play his best men against Real Sociedad on Tuesday .
The tactician rested a number of his first team regulars for the 3-2 win at Ancona on Saturday but they will return at the Delle Alpi in the Champions’ League clash.

"I will make a number of changes to the team that played at the Del Conero," said the Coach. "I have a full squad to pick from apart from Alex Del Piero and Nicola Legrottaglie."

Pavel Nedved and Lilian Thuram will return after they were rested over the weekend. While David Trezeguet will feature after he started on the bench against Ancona.

The Frenchman is set to play alongside Marco Di Vaio, with Fabrizio Miccoli – two goals at the weekend – relegated to the bench.

The Italian champions are looking good for qualification after two wins out of two, like Real, but Lippi is not getting too excited.

"Until qualification is mathematically secure then I won’t comment on the next round," added the tactician.

"There are still four games left to go and the clash against Real Sociedad won’t be an easy match for us."

Lippi also commented on the sacking of Inter boss Hector Cuper. "I’ve spoken to him on a number of occasions and he seemed like an excellent person," said Lippi.

"Cuper had never been sacked before but these things happen. I hope that he can soon get back into the game."

Meanwhile, UEFA have assigned Juventus’ second goal against Galatasaray to Del Piero. It was initially awarded to Ciro Ferrara in the 2-1 win.

Juventus probable: Buffon; Thuram, Ferrara, Montero, Zambrotta; Appiah, Davids, Tacchinardi; Nedved, Di Vaio, Trezeguet
Once again, Appiah and not Camo is playing. Where's the consistency from last season? Playing our best men? Oh, you must be taking the piss, Lippi.

First Trez ought to be dropped and Miccoli and DV should lead the frontline. After all, best men are being played right? Trez is off-form and hence, shouldn't play.

We're playing a rather negative tactic considering we're playing at home. At least if Maresca was in Tach's role in front of the defence, then it would have been reasonable playing what Slack calls '2 marauders in Davids and Appiah'.

But Tach is alright defensively so we can afford to play Camo, who adds more creativity to the team. Or maybe even Miccoli should play winger so DV and Trez can play. But of course, I rather Camo be picked because I'm not keen on Miccoli not playing at his preferred position, where he is better than both Trez and DV.

I think the most entertaining match of last season was against Deportivo, Barcelona and Real Madrid *though I didn't watch* But I concur that these games were not exactly full of 'flair' and 'creativity' from Juve. Instead, we won by our grit.

Besides, our team isn't really a 'creative' team. Nedved, for instance, can't exactly be a 'creative' midfielder but yet he's our most effective. Camo might be 'creative' but not the most effective. Though I say that, he is still better than Appiah as he gives more to our game. And I will say the same for Maresca, who like Denco says, is underused.

Keeping our only 'creative' player Camo when DP is injured around and adding Tach will not decrease the midfield's effectiveness, but it should more or less stay the same.

That's because our midfield would be 'well-rounded' with a balance of both hardworking and creative midfielders. This is keeping the core of the midfield and improving it. That's what I mean by building on top of our foundation as I posted way earlier.

Sorry Tach, but you're the weakest link.

Slack said:
Pirlo’s certainly a liability on the backfoot but he’s highly dangerous in active play as well as set-pieces (God knows why isn’t Maresca taking ours) In addition, he’s worked on his ability to keep the ball, an area where Milan are already experts in. In fact, even Gattuso is looking like a world-beater with a vastly improved all-round game and he’s a prime reason (together with a defence which can take care of itself) why Pirlo can be afforded that role. I have serious doubts whether we can beat them again with the same set-up we used in Turin last season.

We would prolly be like Milan but maybe more effective as in talking about the midfield. Davids alone would probably be enough for Maresca to 'afford' a holding role. I said our team would be more effective than Milan because we have Nedved, and they don't. ;) :thumb:

Note: If we play Miccoli and DP together, we would never be short of entertaining football.
 

Ivy

Senior Member
Jul 16, 2003
1,604
++ [ originally posted by s0ftcore ] ++
Once again, Appiah and not Camo is playing. Where's the consistency from last season? Playing our best men? Oh, you must be taking the piss, Lippi.
Consistent? You mean Cammo being consistent or playing Camo consistently??

If the 1st then ........ i don't feel Camo was consistent last season.

And if it's the other one then................

First Trez ought to be dropped and Miccoli and DV should lead the frontline. After all, best men are being played right? Trez is off-form and hence, shouldn't play.
it's inconsistent for you to be dropping Trez.


Note: If we play Miccoli and DP together, we would never be short of entertaining football.
:thumb: Yeah!!!!
 

Zizou

Senior Member
Apr 21, 2003
3,965
Slack - You're too pessimist. Worst playing football team after Inter?

Why oh why do we really have to be so critic? Not even the critics themselves as they are applauding us and torturing teams like Inter and Lazio.

For example against Ancona we played alot of short triangles or we would make around 10 passes without the opposition touch the ball. I don't see too many teams doing that.

Denco - well in recent matches the only guy that was screwing the offside trap was Thuram :p
 

Hydde

Minimiliano Tristelli
Mar 6, 2003
38,710
++ [ originally posted by Zizou ] ++
Slack - You're too pessimist. Worst playing football team after Inter?


For example against Ancona we played alot of short triangles or we would make around 10 passes without the opposition touch the ball. I don't see too many teams doing that.
Yep. I saw that too. WE did some very good passes and ancona was dizzy with them. Was very weird to see juve doing those good passes to have ball posetion ;)

i liked it.
 

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