[ITA] Serie A 2010/2011 (21 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dostoevsky
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Santon, Ranocchia, Poli, about it. Balotelli has gone. Maybe you could include some others who are a bit older (Bonucci). Also, often younger players emerge from nowhere. You could add in Macheda from abroad as well if we are talking about future Italian talent, I haven't seen enough of Borini.
Age old problem, giving them games. Udinese and Palermo can pick up kids with the same and more talent for cheaper as well, big problem, but not at all exclusive to Italy.
Age old problem, giving them games. Udinese and Palermo can pick up kids with the same and more talent for cheaper as well, big problem, but not at all exclusive to Italy.
I'd say it is. Or if it's not exclusive to Italy, then at least it's done in a whole different level in Italy and that, imo, shows lack of quality too, among other things that you already mentioned.
Take players born November 1986 and younger (who are still 23 or younger). Check the best 10-15 teams in Italy and tell me how many of the Italian under 24 players have an important role in their clubs.
Criscito, Bonucci, Giovinco and Ranocchia at some level...and that's it.
On the other side you have Pato, Hamsik, Pastore, Jovetic, who are maybe even the best players of their teams.
Cavani, Menez, Zarate, Sanchez, Boateng, Coutinho, Biabiany, Ilicic, Hernandez etc are either among the best players of their team or they're playing for the biggest Italian teams, something that only Bonucci does from the younger Italians.
Take players born November 1986 and younger (who are still 23 or younger). Check the best 10-15 teams in Italy and tell me how many of the Italian under 24 players have an important role in their clubs.
Criscito, Bonucci, Giovinco and Ranocchia at some level...and that's it.
On the other side you have Pato, Hamsik, Pastore, Jovetic, who are maybe even the best players of their teams.
Cavani, Menez, Zarate, Sanchez, Boateng, Coutinho, Biabiany, Ilicic, Hernandez etc are either among the best players of their team or they're playing for the biggest Italian teams, something that only Bonucci does from the younger Italians.
True.
As much as coaches preferred experienced players back in the days too:
- The 21 year old Del Piero was one of the best in the CL winning Juve
- The 23 year old Totti was Italy's leader in EURO 2000.
- The 23 year old Inzaghi was serie A topscorer
- The 23-24 year old Pirlo was irreplaceable in the 2003 CL winning Milan
Buffon, Cannavaro, Nesta, Maldini, Gattuso were starting for the European best clubs when they were the same age as some dude named Poli, who is now considered just a talent, he's not even a regular for Sampdoria, and yet he's one of the brightest talents in Italy.
Italian teams today are much weaker than back in the 90's and early 2000's and yet the young Italian players can hardly find a spot in some 15th placed serie A team.
As much as coaches preferred experienced players back in the days too:
- The 21 year old Del Piero was one of the best in the CL winning Juve
- The 23 year old Totti was Italy's leader in EURO 2000.
- The 23 year old Inzaghi was serie A topscorer
- The 23-24 year old Pirlo was irreplaceable in the 2003 CL winning Milan
Buffon, Cannavaro, Nesta, Maldini, Gattuso were starting for the European best clubs when they were the same age as some dude named Poli, who is now considered just a talent, he's not even a regular for Sampdoria, and yet he's one of the brightest talents in Italy.
Italian teams today are much weaker than back in the 90's and early 2000's and yet the young Italian players can hardly find a spot in some 15th placed serie A team.
Hold on a minute before we get carried away, I said the overpricing of domestic players was not restricted to Italy. And it isn't.
If we are comparing the rest of the WORLD'S young players against Italy's then there is always going to one winner. 'Back in the day' there were less foreign players allowed, at times none, as Alen and others here have often pointed out.
And when I see someone like Santon, clearly a very strong talent who can't get into a very strong Inter side which is full of experienced talent from all across the globe then I really don't understand the point that it is only about talent.
It seems that everytime I say something about Italy people (Fred in particular) keep saying the word 'victim'. What victimisation? It's tiresome and boring. Palermo and Udinese pack their team full of foreign youngsters, and I really do mean pack in Udinese's case as they turn over huge amounts of players from all across the world, of which half are not even particularly good, and then work with the better ones. That's fair enough, let them work how they want. They take cheap gambles and sometimes it pays off, with varying degress of success. If they wanted to buy an Italian player with the same talent as one of their better foreign youngsters they would never be able to afford them or at the formative stage compete with Inter, Milan and Juventus (look at our youth recruitment drive this summer for example). So they do what suits them.
I'm not expecting to see some huge influx of Italian talent, but the same problem exists in England with young players. It's not a question of victimisation it's a question of money and sheer numbers. The influx of foreign players into a league means an inevitable decrease in domestic talent. Going back to the argument that a talented player will break through anyway, that is only true up to a point. That's true for a Rooney or Balotelli or Messi, inevitable, but for a guy who might not be predestined it's not that simple. Now the competition is much more difficult. Those players now are not being given the chance to improve as players, and are dropping down teams and leagues. But this is also a problem for players of all nationalities, those clubs who hoard young players can't play all of them.
I'm not going to get into the issue of namechecking, it's been done to death. Italy doesn't have the same talent as a World Cup winning team coming through right now, go figure. There is going to be plenty of work to do, but with top level international games these 'ok' players will become much better players, that's the only way you improve in football.
If we are comparing the rest of the WORLD'S young players against Italy's then there is always going to one winner. 'Back in the day' there were less foreign players allowed, at times none, as Alen and others here have often pointed out.
And when I see someone like Santon, clearly a very strong talent who can't get into a very strong Inter side which is full of experienced talent from all across the globe then I really don't understand the point that it is only about talent.
It seems that everytime I say something about Italy people (Fred in particular) keep saying the word 'victim'. What victimisation? It's tiresome and boring. Palermo and Udinese pack their team full of foreign youngsters, and I really do mean pack in Udinese's case as they turn over huge amounts of players from all across the world, of which half are not even particularly good, and then work with the better ones. That's fair enough, let them work how they want. They take cheap gambles and sometimes it pays off, with varying degress of success. If they wanted to buy an Italian player with the same talent as one of their better foreign youngsters they would never be able to afford them or at the formative stage compete with Inter, Milan and Juventus (look at our youth recruitment drive this summer for example). So they do what suits them.
I'm not expecting to see some huge influx of Italian talent, but the same problem exists in England with young players. It's not a question of victimisation it's a question of money and sheer numbers. The influx of foreign players into a league means an inevitable decrease in domestic talent. Going back to the argument that a talented player will break through anyway, that is only true up to a point. That's true for a Rooney or Balotelli or Messi, inevitable, but for a guy who might not be predestined it's not that simple. Now the competition is much more difficult. Those players now are not being given the chance to improve as players, and are dropping down teams and leagues. But this is also a problem for players of all nationalities, those clubs who hoard young players can't play all of them.
I'm not going to get into the issue of namechecking, it's been done to death. Italy doesn't have the same talent as a World Cup winning team coming through right now, go figure. There is going to be plenty of work to do, but with top level international games these 'ok' players will become much better players, that's the only way you improve in football.
Criscito, Bonucci, Giovinco, Ranocchia, Abate, Sirigu, Schelotto, Astori,
Candreva, De Silvestri.
If we are talking about guys like Biabiany who were hits in the provinces but bit part at the big clubs then I could add Lanzafame. Depends how you choose to look at it. Guys with top flight experience like Okaka, Cerci, Paloschi.
If I add in Santon, Balotelli, Macheda, as inevitable Nazionale it adds up.
If you lift it one year to the comparatably veteran 24 you are adding a lot more players (Motta, Santacroce, De Ceglie, Marchisio, Pozzi, Masiello, Viviano). Whether they are good or not is a different issue, but it's not some doomsday scenario, just sheer competition.
Going over old ground again and again, but the lifespan of a footballer in Italy is different to many countries, it starts later and ends later. That's the system, the Primavera runs up to 20 year old players and then they get loaned, only 'wonderkid' players generally break that mould. No one is denying the system is also a big issue. Spanish sides for example have three big advantages;
1) Ethos on home grown players so they bring through a lot of talent for their home national side. Something that many here would rather abandon in favour of signing talented youngsters regardless of nationality.
2) 'B' teams in a professional league.
3) Non-EU restrictions on match squads.
Candreva, De Silvestri.
If we are talking about guys like Biabiany who were hits in the provinces but bit part at the big clubs then I could add Lanzafame. Depends how you choose to look at it. Guys with top flight experience like Okaka, Cerci, Paloschi.
If I add in Santon, Balotelli, Macheda, as inevitable Nazionale it adds up.
If you lift it one year to the comparatably veteran 24 you are adding a lot more players (Motta, Santacroce, De Ceglie, Marchisio, Pozzi, Masiello, Viviano). Whether they are good or not is a different issue, but it's not some doomsday scenario, just sheer competition.
Going over old ground again and again, but the lifespan of a footballer in Italy is different to many countries, it starts later and ends later. That's the system, the Primavera runs up to 20 year old players and then they get loaned, only 'wonderkid' players generally break that mould. No one is denying the system is also a big issue. Spanish sides for example have three big advantages;
1) Ethos on home grown players so they bring through a lot of talent for their home national side. Something that many here would rather abandon in favour of signing talented youngsters regardless of nationality.
2) 'B' teams in a professional league.
3) Non-EU restrictions on match squads.
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