Israeli-Palestinian conflict (40 Viewers)

[Seven]

Your facts.
If the firepower of the sides were reversed how many jews do you think would die?
The answer seems to make you uncomfortable.

Iran has firepower.

Regardless, Iran chose to issue a warning.

Israel chose to bomb schools, hospitals and refugee camps.

 

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[kappa96]

Iran has firepower.

Regardless, Iran chose to issue a warning.

Israel chose to bomb schools, hospitals and refugee camps.

If the firepower of the sides were reversed how many jews do you think would die?
The answer seems to make you uncomfortable.

 

[Ronn]

This is not a serious discussion. These are also facts:
1- current Iranian regime is a death cult. Them deciding on choosing Israel as their biggest enemy is deeply rooted in their religious beliefs. Israel did help Iran during Iran-Iraq war in 1980s. "Death to Israel" and "Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth" are not just empty slogans. See this for example: https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-...ssile-with-death-to-israel-written-in-hebrew/
2- Israel, in turn, is another death cult. Them avenging October 7 by going on a killing rampage cannot be justified in any way.
3- Iranian regime is not backed by its people, but if Israel chooses to avenge the events of yesterday by significant damage to Iran's infrastructure that could rapidly change. Israel, on the other hand, is a democracy and chose to keep electing Netanyahu.
4- If you choose one side or the other without having any dog in the fight you should check your morals.

 

[Tomice]

But that’s also selective no? How about we compare civilians killed by direct or indirect involvement of Iran or Israel in past 20 years. Is that fair?

Of course its fair. Anyone can frame this however he want to support his narrative, that was the point I was making. Countries are shit, every country under threat, real or perceived will act "inhuman", there is no moral superiority between sides in a war and attempts like Sven's to establish one are frankly childish. Act are being done according to what possible and what you can get away with, we saw on October 7th what can happen if the tables were turned.

But to your question, if we take Iran funding, arms and training of Al-qaida, Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah, Taliban, Hutties and involvement in the Syrian civil war into account then yeah Im willing to compare.

 

[Seven]

This is not a serious discussion. These are also facts:
1- current Iranian regime is a death cult. Them deciding on choosing Israel as their biggest enemy is deeply rooted in their religious beliefs. Israel did help Iran during Iran-Iraq war in 1980s. "Death to Israel" and "Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth" are not just empty slogans. See this for example: https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-...ssile-with-death-to-israel-written-in-hebrew/
2- Israel, in turn, is another death cult. Them avenging October 7 by going on a killing rampage cannot be justified in any way.
3- Iranian regime is not backed by its people, but if Israel chooses to avenge the events of yesterday by significant damage to Iran's infrastructure that could rapidly change. Israel, on the other hand, is a democracy and chose to keep electing Netanyahu.
4- If you choose one side or the other without having any dog in the fight you should check your morals.

This isn't about picking sides.

Israel, Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah are all equally horrendous. I have zero affinity with the Iranian regime and if it were to end tomorrow the world would be a better place.

My point is that Israel does not have the moral high ground. They have done things fucking Iran deems unfathomable.

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Of course its fair. Anyone can frame this however he want to support his narrative, that was the point I was making. Countries are shit, every country under threat, real or perceived will act "inhuman", there is no moral superiority between sides in a war and attempts like Sven's to establish one are frankly childish. Act are being done according to what possible and what you can get away with, we saw on October 7th what can happen if the tables were turned.

But to your question, if we take Iran funding, arms and training of Al-qaida, Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah, Taliban, Hutties and involvement in the Syrian civil war into account then yeah Im willing to compare.

This is precisely what Israel is doing and that is my point.

I understand your loyalty to your country and to your people. But there really can no longer be any excuse. It's hospital after hospital. School after school. Refugee camp after refugee camp. It's Gaza, it's the West Bank, it's Lebanon. At some point Israel have to be held accountable for their atrocities.

 

[Ronn]

Of course its fair. Anyone can frame this however he want to support his narrative, that was the point I was making. Countries are shit, every country under threat, real or perceived will act "inhuman", there is no moral superiority between sides in a war and attempts like Sven's to establish one are frankly childish. Act are being done according to what possible and what you can get away with, we saw on October 7th what can happen if the tables were turned.

But to your question, if we take Iran funding, arms and training of Al-qaida, Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah, Taliban, Hutties and involvement in the Syrian civil war into account then yeah Im willing to compare.

Huh? Iran’s engagement with those 2 entities are limited to the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” doctrine. Shia rulers have deep issues with Sunni salafis.

 

[Mohad]

Brilliant poignant answers to the typical attempts to silence any criticism of Israels apartheid, well worth the few minutes watch:


https://x.com/willi_quinn/status/1840941294106878264?t=Nnn9AThPDj-m2Ie_ruqaNA&s=19

An apartheid regime will never find peace.

The curse of the eighth decade is driving them crazy.

 

[kappa96]

Now I understand seven's point.
He is goona spread ant Israel retoric(basically hate) everywhere , even if it means kissing khamenei's butt, because Israel has gotten away with too much. But he has morals, err I mean "facts" and that's what makes him a stand up person.

 

[s4tch]

Brilliant poignant answers to the typical attempts to silence any criticism of Israels apartheid, well worth the few minutes watch:


https://x.com/willi_quinn/status/1840941294106878264?t=Nnn9AThPDj-m2Ie_ruqaNA&s=19

i enjoyed that exchange. i felt uncomfortable after those clearly offensive and out of the line questions at first but by the end of the discussion it looked to me that there's a great deal of mutual respect between those 2 guys

 

[U Picciriddu]

Obviously Islamic State are extremist and not representative of ordinary Muslims, but they are still Muslims (the name was a dead giveaway for me) who massacred Christians, so what you said isn't true. I guess it's always extremists murdering people anyway, isn't it? Surely by default. You can't kill people based on religion, race, sexuality, etc and be considered a moderate. Maybe there are all sorts of discussions we could get into about the role of fringe organisations and individuals, sectarianism and good or bad Muslims and Christians really.

I think Egypt recently is a good example.

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Yes, you seem to be feeling a lot of things.

But don't let those feelings cloud the facts:

- Iran chose to issue a warning.
- Israel chose to bomb schools, hospitals and refugee camps.

Here’s a nuance though on how to handle this when the enemy decides to use such places as head quarters or ammunition depots. And I mean this in a broad sense, not necessarily this war, because it happens.

 

[BIG DADDY!!!]

https://x.com/KenOKeefe1TJP/status/1841233505260274164?t=EebX6ijxLNAaRGx6IoZZQg&s=19

 

[Siamak]

This isn't about picking sides.

Israel, Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah are all equally horrendous. I have zero affinity with the Iranian regime and if it were to end tomorrow the world would be a better place.

My point is that Israel does not have the moral high ground. They have done things fucking Iran deems unfathomable.

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This is precisely what Israel is doing and that is my point.

I understand your loyalty to your country and to your people. But there really can no longer be any excuse. It's hospital after hospital. School after school. Refugee camp after refugee camp. It's Gaza, it's the West Bank, it's Lebanon. At some point Israel have to be held accountable for their atrocities.

bro, all points that you have made on this subject are valid. You as third person who lives outside of Middle east described problems and events currently are happening there precisely.
I hope one day, still in my lifetime, we will see peace in the Middle East.

 

[Tomice]

"If", "would", "wouldn't" - it's all hypothesis.

The facts are:

- Iran chose to issue a warning.
- Israel chose to bomb schools, hospitals and refugee camps.

You have not denied these facts.

Facts matter.

As a pure logical exercise, How about Hamas chose to use schools, hospitals and refugee camps as cover knowing it doesn't deter Israel from striking them? Choice here is not one sided as you pretend it is.

"Facts" without context are just word arranged in a santance. Schools, hospitals and refugee camps have no independent value.

Civilian deaths do have value, Hamas using those places show they value thier own civilian lives even less then Israel. It seems you value them only when killed by Israel.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

https://x.com/KenOKeefe1TJP/status/1841233505260274164?t=EebX6ijxLNAaRGx6IoZZQg&s=19

Has anyone said "Fuck Israel" yet?

---

Anyway, what was Iran's intention in warning about their missile strikes resulting in minimal/zero casualties?

 

[Mohad]

As a pure logical exercise, How about Hamas chose to use schools, hospitals and refugee camps as cover knowing it doesn't deter Israel from striking them? Choice here is not one sided as you pretend it is.

"Facts" without context are just word arranged in a santance. Schools, hospitals and refugee camps have no independent value.

Civilian deaths do have value, Hamas using those places show they value thier own civilian lives even less then Israel. It seems you value them only when killed by Israel.

The IDF's lies are pure comedy, that's a fact.

 

[Seven]

As a pure logical exercise, How about Hamas chose to use schools, hospitals and refugee camps as cover knowing it doesn't deter Israel from striking them? Choice here is not one sided as you pretend it is.

"Facts" without context are just word arranged in a santance. Schools, hospitals and refugee camps have no independent value.

Civilian deaths do have value, Hamas using those places show they value thier own civilian lives even less then Israel. It seems you value them only when killed by Israel.

You're deflecting. Even if Hamas would use civilians as cover, that does not justify Israel bombing the entire place. It just makes Hamas guilty as well. And I have never defended Hamas.

But, perhaps more importantly, how many civilians have died v Hamas members? Because Israel is willing to sacrifice an awful lot of civilians for the off chance one Hamas member might be among them.

 

[Ronn]

The IDF's lies are pure comedy, that's a fact.

Are you really disputing Hamas using civilians as cover?

 

[Tomice]

You're deflecting. Even if Hamas would use civilians as cover, that does not justify Israel bombing the entire place. It just makes Hamas guilty as well. And I have never defended Hamas.

But, perhaps more importantly, how many civilians have died v Hamas members? Because Israel is willing to sacrifice an awful lot of civilians for the off chance one Hamas member might be among them.

Im not deflecting, Im mirroring. And even if? wth is wrong with you? How far from reality are you willing to go to justify your stand? Even if lol.
On the off chance? Not even close to reality.

And throwing a token Hamas is guilty as well is not remotely balanced or worse, its morally corrupt.
Not defending Hamas is far from demanding from them what you demand of us, your kind are enabling them to keep going, stroking your sense of mortality, at the expanse of ordinary Palestinians lives.

They are much more guilty no matter how harshly you want to judge Israel's reaction.
They started this and no mental gymnastics will erase that.
They can stop all of this in an instant but did you once asked for that? No, you just want Israel to stop, this will happen again somewhere down the road if we don't ends this. But its not your children.
Where are the rallies in the west for Hamas to disband? Were are your cries for Hamas to disarm, release the hostages and leave gazans alone?

Non of it, you have no dog in this fight, just appeasing your sense of mortality.

I do find it tragic, and I do hurt having civilians killed in mess. Don't need anyone here to believe it. I do.

And with that the only way this ends and people stop dying in gaza is if we achieve our goals, I do believe it with all my heart, this is what allows me to be a part of this, in somewhat good enough conscience.

As long as Hamas are there this will never end. This is why this criticism from westerners doesn't bother me. I see this as a necessary evil, and Im not denying it is, we just don't have the luxury to put amorphic morals over our future.

 

[Ronn]

Wow

 

[Fab Fragment]

Im not deflecting, Im mirroring. And even if? wth is wrong with you? How far from reality are you willing to go to justify your stand? Even if lol.
On the off chance? Not even close to reality.

And throwing a token Hamas is guilty as well is not remotely balanced or worse, its morally corrupt.
Not defending Hamas is far from demanding from them what you demand of us, your kind are enabling them to keep going, stroking your sense of mortality, at the expanse of ordinary Palestinians lives.

They are much more guilty no matter how harshly you want to judge Israel's reaction.
They started this and no mental gymnastics will erase that.
They can stop all of this in an instant but did you once asked for that? No, you just want Israel to stop, this will happen again somewhere down the road if we don't ends this. But its not your children.
Where are the rallies in the west for Hamas to disband? Were are your cries for Hamas to disarm, release the hostages and leave gazans alone?

Non of it, you have no dog in this fight, just appeasing your sense of mortality.

I do find it tragic, and I do hurt having civilians killed in mess. Don't need anyone here to believe it. I do.

And with that the only way this ends and people stop dying in gaza is if we achieve our goals, I do believe it with all my heart, this is what allows me to be a part of this, in somewhat good enough conscience.

As long as Hamas are there this will never end. This is why this criticism from westerners doesn't bother me. I see this as a necessary evil, and Im not denying it is, we just don't have the luxury to put amorphic morals over our future.

How about all those [sub] humans who have been left without a son, brother, father, mother etc. I doubt that they are going to be less pissed off than any Hamas guy. And now there are a whole bunch of them.
So I guess it makes sense for IDF to go on killing them all whether they're Hamas or not.