Israeli-Palestinian conflict (98 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Post Ironic

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2013
42,253
Oh yeah the lost, but it's not so simple. Did they have a chance to win without western support? Be it in 48 or 73? What makes it so hard to swallow is how shlomo polakovitz all of a sudden has a blood right to a land he knows nothing about because euros feel bad for how they been treating his people.
I don’t disagree… I mean I suppose the region has never really been autonomous in millennia. Part of the Roman Empire, Byzantine empire, Ottoman Empire, British Empire… and in the end, the Brits got to choose what happened there based on the politics of the time. It sucked and still sucks for the Palestinians and Arab world, but there’s not much that can be done about it at this point. The Arabs chose war instead of accepting the British/UN mandates, and they lost. And lost. And lost again.
 

Buy on AliExpress.com

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
70,977
The Negev is 55% the size of current Israel. Fact

- - - Updated - - -



I'm not at all dude, Israeli responsibility is undiable but it didn't happen in a vacuum.

I'm saying the Arab world in its entrity also has a responsibility. Without their backing in 48 the plastinians maybe would have taken the deal.

People ignore the fact that from 48 to 67 the west bank was under the Jordanians and Gaza was under Egypt.

Both didn't establish a Palestinian state or had any intentions to.
The Palestinian themselves renounced all claims to the west bank under Jordan.

- - - Updated - - -



Can't necessarily disagree with this statement. If I wasn't an Israeli

And had i been born in israel id probably be worse than you :D

But lemme propose this for arguments sake. You get the state of Utah, sorry @Enron, and Jerusalem remains in international hands, you take?
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,591
Millions of Germans were expelled from their homes in East Prussia at the end of WW2, an area that was German back in time but is now in Russian and Polish hands. You never see the Europeans bring up these matters because they got over it and decided enough is enough.

So should the Israelies and Palestinians.

The Germans of a lost territory in a world war had a country to go to, aka the biggiest nation in mainland Europe.


The Palestinians for generations only had refugee camps and tiny enemy military occupied city prisons.


Do you know the definition of stateless?
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
3,024
Partly agree because it varied by region.

The pogroms were in Eastern Europe (Russian Empire mostly) in the late 1800s. You are right folks there likely saw they have no future early on and lots of migration happened before fascism took hold in Western Europe and even prior to WW1 (back when Palestine was under Ottomans). Eastern Europe didnt have strong national identities in that era anyway we are even seeing the identities of Ukraine, Belarus etc.. getting crystallized just now. You know something is seriously wrong if a jewish person is seeking refuge in an Islamic empire. Reminds me of this:


Western Europe is where national identities were much more mature and should have fully included jewish folks as equal citizens. It kinda did "on paper" until the going got rough.

I don't know if the leadership back then consciously picked this fight. If you think Palestinian suffering, lives, quality of life etc.. is invisible and under-valued today, it was 10x less visible in the past. They just get overlooked. They were largely invisible to the brits and every major power back then.

To this day you'll see narratives that implicitly assume it was empty land, or that the people that were there are some generic arabs that can move elsewhere without issue.
Observing whats happening these past few days, its very clear to me that the life on one side counts much less than another in many analyses. I am talking about analyses from well-intentioned people who are trying to be objective. They don't notice that they're doing it.
I agree with your assertion here.

On the last part, and I know it will sound racist even though its not my intention, but when arabs don't value their own or other arabs lives it hard for westerners to do it.
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
70,977
Partly agree because it varied by region.

The pogroms were in Eastern Europe (Russian Empire mostly) in the late 1800s. You are right folks there likely saw they have no future early on and lots of migration happened before fascism took hold in Western Europe and even prior to WW1 (back when Palestine was under Ottomans). Eastern Europe didnt have strong national identities in that era anyway we are even seeing the identities of Ukraine, Belarus etc.. getting crystallized just now. You know something is seriously wrong if a jewish person is seeking refuge in an Islamic empire. Reminds me of this:


Western Europe is where national identities were much more mature and should have fully included jewish folks as equal citizens. It kinda did "on paper" until the going got rough.

I don't know if the leadership back then consciously picked this fight. If you think Palestinian suffering, lives, quality of life etc.. is invisible and under-valued today, it was 10x less visible in the past. They just get overlooked. They were largely invisible to the brits and every major power back then.

To this day you'll see narratives that implicitly assume it was empty land, or that the people that were there are some generic arabs that can move elsewhere without issue.
Observing whats happening these past few days, its very clear to me that the life on one side counts much less than another in many analyses. I am talking about analyses from well-intentioned people who are trying to be objective. They don't notice that they're doing it.
I really think communism and how intertwined it was with jewry is what did it for jews in places like Germany.
 

BayernFan

Senior Member
Feb 17, 2016
7,138
The Germans of a lost territory in a world war had a country to go to, aka the biggiest nation in mainland Europe.


The Palestinians for generations only had refugee camps and tiny enemy military occupied city prisons.


Do you know the definition of stateless?
I’ll say it again, them being stateless is the choice of their own leaders.

They could’ve had their own independent state many times.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
3,024
Arab world definitely had a responsibility and did very little to help the Palestinians - I agree.

Im a bit foggy on this, but iirc Jordan gave citizenship to Palestinians and assured the Arab league they were giving back the territory once the palestinian question was settled in the UN.

Egypt was and will always be a clusterfuck. I really dont know much about what goes on there nor do I pretend to fully understand them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
From what I remember the Jordanians plan was always to annex or do a federation type deal. To be fair out of all arab countries they were the most fair to the plastinians, even now, even after black September

And the Egypt part made me laugh lol
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,591
Undoubtedly connected to this war: 2 Swedish people just got killed in Brussels by a terrorist

Sick to my stomach getting this news while I was in middle of watching first half of the Belgium-Sweden game (since abandoned). Some ISIS fucker gunned down Swedish fans just for wearing the Swedish NT shirts.


And no its not connected to this conflict at all. Not that ISIS psychos need much reason, it being targeted to Swedes is most likely a loony reaction to past months of public Quran burnings by neo nazis wanabees or a christian iraqi refugee sent here for psyops to increase the tension in increasingly insane country. So psuedo fascists and litteral neo Nazis can garner more support and divide and conquer the nation even more (already won the election a year ago as a coalition).
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,686
And had i been born in israel id probably be worse than you :D

But lemme propose this for arguments sake. You get the state of Utah, sorry @Enron, and Jerusalem remains in international hands, you take?
I want the Heber Valley, they can have everything else.

EDIT: if the remove the Mormons bring it on, Jewish girls are way better than LDS ladies.
 

Nzoric

Grazie Mirko
Jan 16, 2011
37,882
From what I remember the Jordanians plan was always to annex or do a federation type deal. To be fair out of all arab countries they were the most fair to the plastinians, even now, even after black September

And the Egypt part made me laugh lol
They did annex, and the UK recognized it ( :lol: ). Then they pulled back on it because the Arab League got pissed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
3,024
And had i been born in israel id probably be worse than you :D

But lemme propose this for arguments sake. You get the state of Utah, sorry @Enron, and Jerusalem remains in international hands, you take?
Back then? Yeah I would have. We have a joke/saying here "why not Uganda?"

Today is too late, we fought too hard, lost to much. We will go down with the ship if it comes to that, I can't just go back and become a European/African like my great-granparnts.

I have no religious ties to the place, for me it just home in the simplest terms.

Utha is a tough sell though
 
Last edited:

j0ker

Capo di tutti capi
Jan 5, 2006
22,892
Europe need to crack down on the Muslims imo. Fuck the optics, they can’t keep being nice about it.
I wonder how long they will let this liberal BS continue before they have it enough and extreme right parties start winning all over Europe because the way things are going I don't think it will be more than 15 years.
 

Tomice

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2009
3,024
They did annex, and the UK recognized it ( :lol: ). Then they pulled back on it because the Arab League got pissed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Part of the reason I personally think the arabs weponized the Palestinian plight and used them as a sword on Israel's neck.

If they allowed it we wouldn't be here today
 

ALC

Ohaulick
Oct 28, 2010
46,578
Need to crack down on radicalism and allowing radicals to immigrate in. It’s nonsense allowing people in who have core values and beliefs diametrically opposed to Western Nations core values.
yeah, kick em out, outlaw religious, whatever it takes. Can’t think of a single benefit that sort of behavior brings to the continent.

and like @j0ker said, it’s just going to lead to the rise of more extreme right wing parties.
 

Hist

Founder of Hism
Jan 18, 2009
11,657
I’ll say it again, them being stateless is the choice of their own leaders.

They could’ve had their own independent state many times.
In the early days there was no clear difference in power as it is today. The Palestinian leadership thought they had more leverage. Now in hindsight today they have zero leverage this looks like a huge mistake. Wasn’t as clear cut at the time.

With the benefit of hindsight (knowing that they have lost basically everything) we can say they should have cut their losses early on. Don’t forget that they did not think a separate Jewish state should be created on their lands at all. These concessions happened over time. Think of Ukraine today demanding every inch back from Russia including Crimea. Now you and I as external observers know thats very unlikely to ever happen, but Ukrainian leadership may think there is a real chance to regain all of it. Ofc my analogy breaks in that Ukraine doesnt have much leverage and is going against a giant from the get go.


it’s also important to note that borders are malleable and agreements are pieces of paper that are backed by power. if there is no real power guaranteeing the contract then it’s as good as cellulose. A lot of the settlement expansion is illegal for example but that doesn’t stop Israel from doing it. Perhaps if they took one of those deals in the past they could have built a real military and there would not have been such a huge power imbalance. Maybe there would have been more deterrence.

- - - Updated - - -

Europe need to crack down on the Muslims imo. Fuck the optics, they can’t keep being nice about it.
Implicit in your statement is that muslim Europeans are not really European citizens. They're European "on paper", the same way Jewish Europeans were suddenly not really Europeans when the going got really rough. Thats a dangerous slippery slope and would be Europeans learning nothing at all from their past mistakes.

The true test of whether you hold the liberal egalitarian values you think you hold is when the going gets rough and social cohesion is hard, not when its easy. Its when the economy is shit, when the world is unstable, when every tribal base instinct in you is on fire. If you want to live up to the European values you claim to hold and want to protect, then it takes persuasion, conversation, dialogue.... really hard grass roots work to sway hearts and minds, not "crack downs".

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with your assertion here.

On the last part, and I know it will sound racist even though its not my intention, but when arabs don't value their own or other arabs lives it hard for westerners to do it.
Agree with the first bit of what you said "arabs don't value their own or other arabs lives" with caveats about generalization ofc. Its unfortunately still very tribal. In-fighting within the tribe (be it Arab tribe or Islamic) even if at significant human cost does not elicit the same reaction as when it involves foreign powers. Its a huge problem in the culture, holding one's own to very low expectations.

Where I disagree with you is that I don't think its connected to the West's low valuation of Arab lives. This invisibility/lesser valuation is not unique to Arabs, plenty of other peoples across the world are invisible/weigh less, and not so long ago this included jewish people too. This is reflected in domestic politics of "multi-cultural" western countries too, some citizens are more real than others (hence the slogan of BLM btw) and others are occasionally worthy of a "crack down".
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 8, Guests: 81)