Israeli-Palestinian conflict (97 Viewers)

[Hist]

Why should they accept it, if euros fels so bad about the plight of jews why not give em a piece of Switzerland

The critical historical mistake was in treating jews as a separate people from the national identities of the Eastern and then Western European countries. In the early days of the zionist movement, there was very little support for the idea of creating a jewish state because most jewish people saw themselves as German, French, Polish, Italian and as part and parcel of these national identities. They saw no need for it the same way Christians in those countries would have seen no need for a separate Christian state. But through the pogroms and then the holocaust they learned the hard way that they werent truly equals in these countries.

The better approach (in hindsight) after defeating the Nazis would have been to assert and affirm the national identities. To have owned the fact that Europeans sold out their fellow citizens, apologize for it and to commit to reparations. Rather than saying "yeah you're not really European go build a country for yourselves in the Middle East". Ofc that would have required European jews to trust their fellow citizens after everything that happened in WW2.

 

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[GordoDeCentral]

They had every right to refuse, of course. But then they lost the civil war, then the 1948 war, then aligned themselves with the USSR and lost the 67 and 73 wars.

They lost. Simple. Does it make the Israelis the good guys? Absolutely not. But all this is just the nature of human history. Migration, war, conquest, winners, losers.

Oh yeah the lost, but it's not so simple. Did they have a chance to win without western support? Be it in 48 or 73? What makes it so hard to swallow is how shlomo polakovitz all of a sudden has a blood right to a land he knows nothing about because euros feel bad for how they been treating his people.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

The critical historical mistake was in treating jews as a separate people from the national identities of the Eastern and then Western European countries. In the early days of the zionist movement, there was very little support for the idea of creating a jewish state because most jewish people saw themselves as German, French, Polish, Italian and as part and parcel of these national identities. They saw no need for it the same way Christians in those countries would have seen no need for a separate Christian state. But through the pogroms and then the holocaust they learned the hard way that they werent truly equals in these countries.

The better approach (in hindsight) after defeating the Nazis would have been to assert and affirm the national identities. To have owned the fact that Europeans sold out their fellow citizens, apologize for it and to commit to reparations. Rather than saying "yeah you're not really European go build a country for yourselves in the Middle East". Ofc that would have required European jews to trust their fellow citizens after everything that happened in WW2.

Tbh the jews have made their mind for a while before ww2 that europe was not in their future. The thing is they picked a fight with the second most populous religion in the world, the way they are going, either they kill off all muslims or they will never be really at peace.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Iirc the idea of Israel didn’t necessarily came from non-Jewish Europeans, but rather from oppressed Jews who lived in Europe; the birth of Zionist movements. During the British-Palestinian mandate Churchill even tried to stop migration towards Palestine/Israel

Balfour declaration, rest is posturing

 

[U Picciriddu]

Undoubtedly connected to this war: 2 Swedish people just got killed in Brussels by a terrorist

 

[Tomice]

Oh yeah the lost, but it's not so simple. Did they have a chance to win without western support? Be it in 48 or 73? What makes it so hard to swallow is how shlomo polakovitz all of a sudden has a blood right to a land he knows nothing about because euros feel bad for how they been treating his people.

Gaining allies and support is part of fighting a war and building a strong state. People act like it's using cheat codes in a video game.

Not mention they had 5 armies and entire Arab world support

 

[U Picciriddu]

Balfour declaration, rest is posturing

Posturing in what sense?

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Undoubtedly connected to this war: 2 Swedish people just got killed in Brussels by a terrorist

https://www.hln.be/binnenland/beken...elijke-dader~a7f0db31/?referrer=https://t.co/

Might be a reaction to the murder of the Palestinian kid in the US

 

[Nzoric]

60-70% of the land proposed for the Jewish state was actuall fricking desert. The Arab state has almost none at all.

You have no knowledge just spweing Palestinian talking points

That simply not true. Israel got the Negev, but nowhere does that make 70% of the proposed jewish state. Majority of the coastline, including the major ports, went to Israel and a lot of agricultural lands too. In hindsight they shouldve taken the deal, definitely. I was giving historical context for the situation in which the deal was rejected. 900k - 1.4 million Palestinians vs roughly 600k Israelis and the partition was 62% of the territory to Israel…


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[Nzoric]

They were kept statless and are being kept as refugees abecause they have been weponized by the Arab world against Israel.

They are the only people to ever been hereditary refugees in world history.

Sorry, dont know what to reply to you when you dismiss Israeli responsibility for the people being opressed by Israel.


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[GordoDeCentral]

Gaining allies and support is part of fighting a war and building a strong state. People act like it's using cheat codes in a video game.

Not mention they had 5 armies and entire Arab world support

Bro 100% you won, all is fair in war. All i am saying is not the price was worth it.

 

[Nzoric]

It is not the exact same thing of course, agreed.

But there's similiarities. The Palestinians are a stateless people because their leaders (or lack of), refused the solutions given to them. They could've had their own state many decades ago.

Now please go back and read my very first post in this discussion.


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[Tomice]

That simply not true. Israel got the Negev, but nowhere does that make 70% of the proposed jewish state. Majority of the coastline, including the major ports, went to Israel and a lot of agricultural lands too. In hindsight they shouldve taken the deal, definitely. I was giving historical context for the situation in which the deal was rejected. 900k - 1.4 million Palestinians vs roughly 600k Israelis and the partition was 62% of the territory to Israel…


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The Negev is 55% the size of current Israel. Fact

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Sorry, dont know what to reply to you when you dismiss Israeli responsibility for the people being opressed by Israel.


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I'm not at all dude, Israeli responsibility is undiable but it didn't happen in a vacuum.

I'm saying the Arab world in its entrity also has a responsibility. Without their backing in 48 the plastinians maybe would have taken the deal.

People ignore the fact that from 48 to 67 the west bank was under the Jordanians and Gaza was under Egypt.

Both didn't establish a Palestinian state or had any intentions to.
The Palestinian themselves renounced all claims to the west bank under Jordan.

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Bro 100% you won, all is fair in war. All i am saying is not the price was worth it.

Can't necessarily disagree with this statement. If I wasn't an Israeli

 

[Nzoric]

The Negev is 55% the size of current Israel. Fact

Jeez man. If youre gonna go about it that way. Palestine got 20-25% of the Negev in 1948. Israel got 62% of the total territory despite being - by the most pro-israeli estimates - 35% of the total population.


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[Tomice]

Jeez man. If youre gonna go about it that way. Palestine got 20-25% of the Negev in 1948. Israel got 62% of the total territory despite being - by the most pro-israeli estimates - 35% of the total population.


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Israel gained more land since, adjusted im not that far off.
I know the map and I know my country. The deal is not as bad as you make it sound. Jaffa and Gaza were both major port, ashdod is no the 2nd largest in Israel, no one stopped them from developing further.

62% of the land sound unfair true, but not considering half of it was truly a desert when technology wasn't close to advance enough to cultivate or even live in.

This is not to suggest they didn't have the right to reject, they absolutely did. In hindsight it was a grave mistake, for both of us.

 

[Nzoric]

I'm not at all dude. I'm saying the Arab world in its entrity also has a responsibility. Without their backing in 48 the plastinians maybe would have taken the deal.

People ignore the fact that from 48 to 67 the west bank was under the Jordanians and Gaza was under Egypt.

Both didn't establish a Palestinian state or had any intentions to.
The Palestinian themselves renounced all claims to the west bank under Jordan.

Arab world definitely had a responsibility and did very little to help the Palestinians - I agree.

Im a bit foggy on this, but iirc Jordan gave citizenship to Palestinians and assured the Arab league they were giving back the territory once the palestinian question was settled in the UN.

Egypt was and will always be a clusterfuck. I really dont know much about what goes on there nor do I pretend to fully understand them.


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[Nzoric]

Israel gained more land since, adjusted im not that far off.
I know the map and I know my country. The deal is not as bad as you make it sound. Jaffa and Gaza were both major port, ashdod is no the 2nd largest in Israel, no one stopped them from developing further.

This is not to suggest they didn't have the right to reject, they absolutely did. In hindsight it was a grave mistake, for both of us.

The deal is really bad in 1948 context. Development a port further is a terrible proposition if youre losing Haifa. And Gaza was a minor port back then.

I agree with the last part of your post tho.


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[U Picciriddu]

Not sure where to post.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Seven is going wild.

 

[Nzoric]

Not sure where to post.

The guy is ISIS affiliated I think.


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[Hist]

Tbh the jews have made their mind for a while before ww2 that europe was not in their future. The thing is they picked a fight with the second most populous religion in the world, the way they are going, either they kill off all muslims or they will never be really at peace.

Partly agree because it varied by region.

The pogroms were in Eastern Europe (Russian Empire mostly) in the late 1800s. You are right folks there likely saw they have no future early on and lots of migration happened before fascism took hold in Western Europe and even prior to WW1 (back when Palestine was under Ottomans). Eastern Europe didnt have strong national identities in that era anyway we are even seeing the identities of Ukraine, Belarus etc.. getting crystallized just now. You know something is seriously wrong if a jewish person is seeking refuge in an Islamic empire. Reminds me of this:


Western Europe is where national identities were much more mature and should have fully included jewish folks as equal citizens. It kinda did "on paper" until the going got rough.

I don't know if the leadership back then consciously picked this fight. If you think Palestinian suffering, lives, quality of life etc.. is invisible and under-valued today, it was 10x less visible in the past. They just get overlooked. They were largely invisible to the brits and every major power back then.

To this day you'll see narratives that implicitly assume it was empty land, or that the people that were there are some generic arabs that can move elsewhere without issue.
Observing whats happening these past few days, its very clear to me that the life on one side counts much less than another in many analyses. I am talking about analyses from well-intentioned people who are trying to be objective. They don't notice that they're doing it.