Israeli-Palestinian conflict (75 Viewers)

[JBF]

Now the Jordanian Intellegence will be furious, they'll look like...

Thanks Reb

 

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[Fred]

But Eddy, this doesn't make sense. How many Arabs are in favor of unification? 50%? 70%? If it really were that many, something would be happening surely.

People are under educated, brainwashed, manipulated and oppressed. It is not in the interests of arab leaders, and it is not in the interest of big countries that the Arabs have one state. So basically anyone who is in power doesn't want it happening. The desire for unification has died down a bit too, with too many conflicts between Arab countries, and too many of the new generation identifying themselves as Jordanian, Egyptian, Iraqi etc.

Too many factors stand in the way of unification. But i believe most educated Arabs that know their history are in favor of it.

Are you telling me that Arabs in general want to be united in the same country? Then why doesn't that just happen? If that's the majority will in all Arab states? Surely if you had a democracy then you could make it happen. So why don't you do something? Why doesn't anyone?

You always have to be skeptical of people who tell you that they really want to do something but noone seems to be doing anything about it, don't you think?


Anyway, back to the core issue. I've thought about this question at various times in my life and I've never really been able to formulate a satisfying answer. My feeling is if my country was under threat (which tbh is only a stroke of good luck that it's not, seeing as for past centuries Poland has been at war all the time) I'd do like those scientists in Germany in the 1930s and emigrate. I see no point in getting myself caught in the cross fire of greedy rich men who thirst for power. It's the general who gives the order, but it's the farmer who does the fighting. The farmer is a pawn, he never wanted to be in a war. Seems to me the best thing you can do for yourself is find a new place to live.

Don't go away btw, it's very nice talking to you.

You've lived all your life in Europe, you obviously do not know what its like to live under dictatorial regimes. It is definitely not that easy. You're always looking over your shoulder and you can never trust anyone when it comes to politics.

That's the point, I'm afraid there is no democracy. Plus, I'm sorry to say it and I'm sure my Arab posters agree with me but Arabs in this new age are a bit, let's not say stupid but a bit behind to think about an Arab unification. The main reasons for it is because of lack of education and corrupted governments.

Edit: If some leader came up and vowed for a revolution in all the Arab states for one independent state, they would all laugh at him. Then we are back to square one re-thinking what went wrong along the way.

Brilliant post

I think it's partly because we're not letting them to do that and we don't want democracy there.

I did a quick research, which is surely full of mistakes and you guys will forgive me (and maybe try to fix these mistakes).
I counted how big that potential Arab state will be, I approximately calculated the population, ethnic origin and religion in this potential state.

As criteria I used:
- Countries members of the Arab league
- Countries who aren't members of the Arab league but Arab is the official language
- Israel as a desired territory in this potential country

For many countries no official figures can be given, because their laws forbid population censuses and somewhere there are lot of irregularities when the censuses are made.

Here are the results:



The second largest country in the world after Russia. Spread on two continents. From the Atlantic Ocean on the east, through the Mediterranean, all the way to the Persian gulf and the Arabian sea, with territories down in the Mozambique Channel in the Indian ocean.
With the oil and other natural reserves, this will be quite an unpleasant rival, eh?

Lets look at the population now:


It's the 3rd most inhabited country in the world.



Lets see how many, approximately, of them are Arabs:


So around 268 100 000 are Arabs and ~104 000 000 aren't Arabs. That's quite a big number of non-Arabs, which is more than 1/4 of the population.


Religion wise:


So out of 372.6 million around 311 million are Muslim, or 83%.
Of course, here you have other divisions among the muslims, between sunni, shia and some other minor branches.

You can draw your conclusions, but to me it doesn't look like a state that the rest of the world, mainly the great powers, would like to exist.

Absolutely brilliant post, rather informative too

 

[Omair]

Are you telling me that Arabs in general want to be united in the same country? Then why doesn't that just happen? If that's the majority will in all Arab states? Surely if you had a democracy then you could make it happen. So why don't you do something? Why doesn't anyone?

You always have to be skeptical of people who tell you that they really want to do something but noone seems to be doing anything about it, don't you think?

Don't go away btw, it's very nice talking to you.

First, thanks and the pleasure is also mine

Well, let's take the closest two examples of unification. Back in the 1950s Syria and Egypt united under Jamal Abdulnasser along with, iirc, Hafiz alAsad(I'm not quite familiar of what actually happened but I know it did) what happened? The unification broke up faster than it was planned. My other example is the Arab countries on the Persian gulf,rather known by the Gulf Cooperation Council. Around 2 years ago the leaders of these countries decided to unify currency, a la Euro. All agreed. But why don't anyone see something happening? because the UAE didn't agree on the HQ's location (the other 5 countries agreed for it to be in Riyadh). Economists around here argue that the UAE's logic was correct some others see it just as a greed to power and that the UAE doesn't want to give Saudi Arabia extra power even if it means losing being part of a economical superpower. Same thing happened to the united Arab currency back in the 1960s/70s that was suggested by the late King Faisal. Again for minor differences!

What I mean to say leaders around here are themselves aren't educated, let alone the people. Each and every leader is seeking more power or at least not to lose what he already has. FYI, as far as I remember, the only Arab leader with a PhD is Bashar Al-Asad president of Syria (who btw inherited the position after his father died, GO demonarchy!). That's why we're never gonna see anything anytime soon.

That's the point, I'm afraid there is no democracy. Plus, I'm sorry to say it and I'm sure my Arab posters agree with me but Arabs in this new age are a bit, let's not say stupid but a bit behind to think about an Arab unification. The main reasons for it is because of lack of education and corrupted governments.

Edit: If some leader came up and vowed for a revolution in all the Arab states for one independent state, they would all laugh at him. Then we are back to square one re-thinking what went wrong along the way.

It takes more than one. Again, Jamal Abdulnasser (Perhaps only second to Kennedy when it comes to charisma in his era, don't know about intelligence though maybe Rebel, Bisco or JBL would like to inform us) failed to do it with Syria. It takes way more than this. But I mostly agree with your post!

Couldn't say it better...

thanks..

I think it's partly because we're not letting them to do that and we don't want democracy there.

I did a quick research, which is surely full of mistakes and you guys will forgive me (and maybe try to fix these mistakes).
I counted how big that potential Arab state will be, I approximately calculated the population, ethnic origin and religion in this potential state.

As criteria I used:
- Countries members of the Arab league
- Countries who aren't members of the Arab league but Arab is the official language
- Israel as a desired territory in this potential country

For many countries no official figures can be given, because their laws forbid population censuses and somewhere there are lot of irregularities when the censuses are made.

Here are the results:



The second largest country in the world after Russia. Spread on two continents. From the Atlantic Ocean on the east, through the Mediterranean, all the way to the Persian gulf and the Arabian sea, with territories down in the Mozambique Channel in the Indian ocean.
With the oil and other natural reserves, this will be quite an unpleasant rival, eh?

Lets look at the population now:


It's the 3rd most inhabited country in the world.



Lets see how many, approximately, of them are Arabs:


So around 268 100 000 are Arabs and ~104 000 000 aren't Arabs. That's quite a big number of non-Arabs, which is more than 1/4 of the population.


Religion wise:


So out of 372.6 million around 311 million are Muslim, or 83%.
Of course, here you have other divisions among the muslims, between sunni, shia and some other minor branches.

You can draw your conclusions, but to me it doesn't look like a state that the rest of the world, mainly the great powers, would like to exist.

Great post! Very informative thanks.

And I second Rebel, you should exclude Chad, Niger and Ethiopia.

About other superpowers not wanting such a huge country to happen, We really could use without more conspiracy theories around here! Even though that one is mostly correct ..

 

[Bjerknes]

Yes, lets praise a murderer for blowing up Americans. That's a real great way to gain support for causes.

 

[Martin]

Group -Andy:
Alright then

Btw do you think it's true that "people have the government they deserve"?

 

[JBF]

Yes, lets praise a murderer for blowing up Americans. That's a real great way to gain support for causes.

Those Americans were CIA agents working on an occupied soil, You didn't expect flowere here too, Or did you?

 

[Bjerknes]

Those Americans were CIA agents working on an occupied soil, You didn't expect flowere here too, Or did you?

I don't expect much from folks that blow themselves up. Not even a flower.

 

[Omair]

Group -Andy:
Alright then

Btw do you think it's true that "people have the government they deserve"?

There is a famous saying around here and it's sometimes credited, falsely, to Prophet Mohammed -saws- that means "You're ruled by the way you are"

Do I think if it's true? well you can't really say, I mean what if we're in such a diverse country and there are all ranges of people, who'd rule them? And if it happens to be true, what's the use of having an opposition in many countries? But as is shown in our regions, it's mostly true Arabs are as bad as their leaders and vice-versa ..

 

[JBF]

I don't expect much from folks that blow themselves up. Not even a flower.

Good, then next time you plan on occupying some country make sure they don't have that culture. But it seems to me that wherever the US army goes some strange blow up festevil starts. From Japan during WWII to Korea and Vietnam..
There's also Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan and last but not least Yaman. You're like fucking magnetics man!

 

[Fred]

Group -Andy:
Alright then

Btw do you think it's true that "people have the government they deserve"?

Thats ridiculous.

I don't expect much from folks that blow themselves up. Not even a flower.

Sometimes its the only form of self defense that you have left. Andy, you are always objective when it comes to the US foreign policy. These guys are CIA agents that are here aiding an occupying force, they are not civilians. You don't expect people there to just sit down and accept them.

 

[Martin]

There is a famous saying around here and it's sometimes credited, falsely, to Prophet Mohammed -saws- that means "You're ruled by the way you are"

Do I think if it's true? well you can't really say, I mean what if we're in such a diverse country and there are all ranges of people, who'd rule them? And if it happens to be true, what's the use of having an opposition in many countries? But as is shown in our regions, it's mostly true Arabs are as bad as their leaders and vice-versa ..

ouch

 

[Martin]

Thats ridiculous.

Well, I think there is some truth to that. Especially in a democracy, where supposedly, you are actually choosing what you want.

 

[Fred]

Well, I think there is some truth to that. Especially in a democracy, where supposedly, you are actually choosing what you want.

Some nations just take longer to reach the stage where they get the governments "they deserve". I'd like to think that our time will come too.

 

[ReBeL]

First, thanks and the pleasure is also mine

Well, let's take the closest two examples of unification. Back in the 1950s Syria and Egypt united under Jamal Abdulnasser along with, iirc, Hafiz alAsad(I'm not quite familiar of what actually happened but I know it did) what happened? The unification broke up faster than it was planned. My other example is the Arab countries on the Persian gulf,rather known by the Gulf Cooperation Council. Around 2 years ago the leaders of these countries decided to unify currency, a la Euro. All agreed. But why don't anyone see something happening? because the UAE didn't agree on the HQ's location (the other 5 countries agreed for it to be in Riyadh). Economists around here argue that the UAE's logic was correct some others see it just as a greed to power and that the UAE doesn't want to give Saudi Arabia extra power even if it means losing being part of a economical superpower. Same thing happened to the united Arab currency back in the 1960s/70s that was suggested by the late King Faisal. Again for minor differences!

What I mean to say leaders around here are themselves aren't educated, let alone the people. Each and every leader is seeking more power or at least not to lose what he already has. FYI, as far as I remember, the only Arab leader with a PhD is Bashar Al-Asad president of Syria (who btw inherited the position after his father died, GO demonarchy!). That's why we're never gonna see anything anytime soon.




It takes more than one. Again, Jamal Abdulnasser (Perhaps only second to Kennedy when it comes to charisma in his era, don't know about intelligence though maybe Rebel, Bisco or JBL would like to inform us) failed to do it with Syria. It takes way more than this. But I mostly agree with your post!



thanks..



Great post! Very informative thanks.

And I second Rebel, you should exclude Chad, Niger and Ethiopia.

About other superpowers not wanting such a huge country to happen, We really could use without more conspiracy theories around here! Even though that one is mostly correct ..

Nice summing for the topic. I have to say three notes:

1- The Syrian president who agreed with Abdennaser for the unification of the two countries was Shukri Al-Quwwatli, not Havez Al-Asad. Hafez became the president in 1971.

2- What I understood from discussions with Syrians about the reason of the failure of the unity between Egypt and Syria is that Syrians felt they were governed by Egyptians, not contributing in ruling the new unified country as Abdennaser sent an Egyptian guy to be responsible for managing the Syrian part of the country, and that was not very nice in the viewpoints of Syrians.

3- Ismail Hanyeh holds a PhD in Arabic literature.

 

[Omair]

Nice summing for the topic. I have to say three notes:

1- The Syrian president who agreed with Abdennaser for the unification of the two countries was Shukri Al-Quwwatli, not Havez Al-Asad. Hafez became the president in 1971.

2- What I understood from discussions with Syrians about the reason of the failure of the unity between Egypt and Syria is that Syrians felt they were governed by Egyptians, not contributing in ruling the new unified country as Abdennaser sent an Egyptian guy to be responsible for managing the Syrian part of the country, and that was not very nice in the viewpoints of Syrians.

3- Ismail Hanyeh holds a PhD in Arabic literature.

1- thanks, I was too lazy to look it up in wikipedia

2-Exactly, Syrians felt like they're being ruled by Egypt and didn't want to lose such power.

3- Figures

 

[ReBeL]

1- thanks, I was too lazy to look it up in wikipedia

2-Exactly, Syrians felt like they're being ruled by Egypt and didn't want to lose such power.

3- Figures

It was not from Wikipedia , but rather from one of the tens of the Syrian Tv series we've watched in the last 25 years

 

[Alen]

It was not from Wikipedia , but rather from one of the tens of the Syrian Tv series we've watched in the last 25 years

I don't know why but the guy on your avatar looks like Galliani to me.

 

[Bjerknes]

Thats ridiculous.






Sometimes its the only form of self defense that you have left. Andy, you are always objective when it comes to the US foreign policy. These guys are CIA agents that are here aiding an occupying force, they are not civilians. You don't expect people there to just sit down and accept them.

Yeah, I know. But you don't see me celebrating whenever some Hamas soldier blows up a Zionist Mossad agent. Even though I dislike Israel it's still needless loss of life.

And folks wonder why little sympathy goes out to the Mid East.

 

[Fred]

Yeah, I know. But you don't see me celebrating whenever some Hamas soldier blows up a Zionist Mossad agent. Even though I dislike Israel it's still needless loss of life.

And folks wonder why little sympathy goes out to the Mid East.

You do have a point here, i have to admit. But try to understand, that after all those years of having to deal with the oppression not only of our governments but Western colonial powers too, sometimes we get a bit too emotional.

 

[Fred]

I don't know why but the guy on your avatar looks like Galliani to me.

and there i was thinking you might have watched one of those Syrian series Reb was talking about after i saw that you quoted his post