Israeli-Palestinian conflict (54 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
- Start date
I expected better from you but what the hell, do you really think that if I alone or better me along with other couple of youths go mujahdeen to Palestine do you really think we'll get past the border. Hell, we would be shot by the Jordanian amry miles before we even reach that damn fence.
What is more, even if we do and we kill many of them it won't make that much of a difference as all I'll get is hidding my body and my relatives weeping and 2 zionists killed which hardly is a win in my eyes. I know I can do better and I will do better and I believe that sacrifying blood is the only way and my blood before all but only in the right time and that's when my blood is shed while making a way for others to get there. And I know this may not make sense to you but someday and hopefully it won't happen to your beloved country you might understand that after almost 60 years of tiranny that its the only way.
What is more, even if we do and we kill many of them it won't make that much of a difference as all I'll get is hidding my body and my relatives weeping and 2 zionists killed which hardly is a win in my eyes. I know I can do better and I will do better and I believe that sacrifying blood is the only way and my blood before all but only in the right time and that's when my blood is shed while making a way for others to get there. And I know this may not make sense to you but someday and hopefully it won't happen to your beloved country you might understand that after almost 60 years of tiranny that its the only way.
Hoori, I don't want to give myself an excuse here, but there is no way to use our blood to retain anything. I'm talking here about Palestinians in Jordan.
You know that the borders between Jordan and Israel are well-protected by both armies since 1970, and nobody can go there ever. The police around the Israeli embassy in Amman are more than those around the royal palace. So, if somebody tries individually to sacrifice his blood, he will be shot down by police. As a result, he will lose his blood without giving any support to those that need it inside Palestine.
Unless a group act is done here, there will be no use for individualistic acts.
We know that only power will retain what was stolen of us, but unless the people here become confident of each other's intentions and that they will not betray each other when the real battle takes place, nobody can do anything from this land, unfortunately.
You know that the borders between Jordan and Israel are well-protected by both armies since 1970, and nobody can go there ever. The police around the Israeli embassy in Amman are more than those around the royal palace. So, if somebody tries individually to sacrifice his blood, he will be shot down by police. As a result, he will lose his blood without giving any support to those that need it inside Palestine.
Unless a group act is done here, there will be no use for individualistic acts.
We know that only power will retain what was stolen of us, but unless the people here become confident of each other's intentions and that they will not betray each other when the real battle takes place, nobody can do anything from this land, unfortunately.
Gaza must be rebuilt now
It is generally recognised that the Middle East peace process is in the doldrums, almost moribund. Israeli settlement expansion within Palestine continues, and PLO leaders refuse to join in renewed peace talks without a settlement freeze, knowing that no Arab or Islamic nation will accept any comprehensive agreement while Israel retains control of East Jerusalem.
US objections have impeded Egyptian efforts to resolve differences between Hamas and Fatah that could lead to 2010 elections. With this stalemate, PLO leaders have decided that President Mahmoud Abbas will continue in power until elections can be held – a decision condemned by many Palestinians.
Even though Syria and Israel under the Olmert government had almost reached an agreement with Turkey's help, the current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, rejects Turkey as a mediator on the Golan Heights. No apparent alternative is in the offing.
The UN general assembly approved a report issued by its human rights council that called on Israel and the Palestinians to investigate charges of war crimes during the recent Gaza war, but positive responses seem unlikely.
In summary: UN resolutions, Geneva conventions, previous agreements between Israelis and Palestinians, the Arab peace initiative, and official policies of the US and other nations are all being ignored. In the meantime, the demolition of Arab houses, expansion of Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and Palestinian recalcitrance threaten any real prospect for peace.
Of more immediate concern, those under siege in Gaza face another winter of intense personal suffering. I visited Gaza after the devastating January war and observed homeless people huddling in makeshift tents, under plastic sheets, or in caves dug into the debris of their former homes. Despite offers by Palestinian leaders and international agencies to guarantee no use of imported materials for even defensive military purposes, cement, lumber, and panes of glass are not being permitted to pass entry points into Gaza. The US and other nations have accepted this abhorrent situation without forceful corrective action.
I have discussed ways to assist the citizens of Gaza with a number of Arab and European leaders and their common response is that the Israeli blockade makes any assistance impossible. Donors point out that they have provided enormous aid funds to build schools, hospitals and factories, only to see them destroyed in a few hours by precision bombs and missiles. Without international guarantees, why risk similar losses in the future?
It is time to face the fact that, for the past 30 years, no one nation has been able or willing to break the impasse and induce the disputing parties to comply with international law. We cannot wait any longer. Israel has long argued that it cannot negotiate with terrorists, yet has had an entire year without terrorism and still could not negotiate. President Obama has promised active involvement of the US government, but no formal peace talks have begun and no comprehensive framework for peace has been proposed. Individually and collectively, the world powers must act.
One recent glimmer of life has been the 8 December decision of EU foreign ministers to restate the long-standing basic requirements for peace commonly accepted within the international community, including that Israel's pre-1967 boundaries will prevail unless modified by a negotiated agreement with the Palestinians. A week later the new EU foreign policy chief, Baroness Catherine Ashton, reiterated this statement in even stronger terms and called for the international Quartet to be "reinvigorated". This is a promising prospect.
President Obama was right to insist on a two-state solution and a complete settlement freeze as the basis for negotiations. Since Israel has rejected the freeze and the Palestinians won't negotiate without it, a logical step is for all Quartet members (the US, EU, Russia and UN) to support the Obama proposal by declaring any further expansion of settlements illegal and refusing to veto UN security council decisions to condemn such settlements. This might restrain Israel and also bring Palestinians to the negotiating table.
At the same time, the Quartet should join with Turkey and invite Syria and Israel to negotiate a solution to the Golan Heights dispute.
Without ascribing blame to any of the disputing parties, the Quartet also should begin rebuilding Gaza by organising relief efforts under the supervision of an active special envoy, overseeing a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas, and mediating an opening of the crossings. The cries of homeless and freezing people demand immediate relief.
This is a time for bold action, and the season for forgiveness, reconciliation and peace.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/dec/19/gaza-rebuilt-peace-process-suffering
It is generally recognised that the Middle East peace process is in the doldrums, almost moribund. Israeli settlement expansion within Palestine continues, and PLO leaders refuse to join in renewed peace talks without a settlement freeze, knowing that no Arab or Islamic nation will accept any comprehensive agreement while Israel retains control of East Jerusalem.
US objections have impeded Egyptian efforts to resolve differences between Hamas and Fatah that could lead to 2010 elections. With this stalemate, PLO leaders have decided that President Mahmoud Abbas will continue in power until elections can be held – a decision condemned by many Palestinians.
Even though Syria and Israel under the Olmert government had almost reached an agreement with Turkey's help, the current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, rejects Turkey as a mediator on the Golan Heights. No apparent alternative is in the offing.
The UN general assembly approved a report issued by its human rights council that called on Israel and the Palestinians to investigate charges of war crimes during the recent Gaza war, but positive responses seem unlikely.
In summary: UN resolutions, Geneva conventions, previous agreements between Israelis and Palestinians, the Arab peace initiative, and official policies of the US and other nations are all being ignored. In the meantime, the demolition of Arab houses, expansion of Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and Palestinian recalcitrance threaten any real prospect for peace.
Of more immediate concern, those under siege in Gaza face another winter of intense personal suffering. I visited Gaza after the devastating January war and observed homeless people huddling in makeshift tents, under plastic sheets, or in caves dug into the debris of their former homes. Despite offers by Palestinian leaders and international agencies to guarantee no use of imported materials for even defensive military purposes, cement, lumber, and panes of glass are not being permitted to pass entry points into Gaza. The US and other nations have accepted this abhorrent situation without forceful corrective action.
I have discussed ways to assist the citizens of Gaza with a number of Arab and European leaders and their common response is that the Israeli blockade makes any assistance impossible. Donors point out that they have provided enormous aid funds to build schools, hospitals and factories, only to see them destroyed in a few hours by precision bombs and missiles. Without international guarantees, why risk similar losses in the future?
It is time to face the fact that, for the past 30 years, no one nation has been able or willing to break the impasse and induce the disputing parties to comply with international law. We cannot wait any longer. Israel has long argued that it cannot negotiate with terrorists, yet has had an entire year without terrorism and still could not negotiate. President Obama has promised active involvement of the US government, but no formal peace talks have begun and no comprehensive framework for peace has been proposed. Individually and collectively, the world powers must act.
One recent glimmer of life has been the 8 December decision of EU foreign ministers to restate the long-standing basic requirements for peace commonly accepted within the international community, including that Israel's pre-1967 boundaries will prevail unless modified by a negotiated agreement with the Palestinians. A week later the new EU foreign policy chief, Baroness Catherine Ashton, reiterated this statement in even stronger terms and called for the international Quartet to be "reinvigorated". This is a promising prospect.
President Obama was right to insist on a two-state solution and a complete settlement freeze as the basis for negotiations. Since Israel has rejected the freeze and the Palestinians won't negotiate without it, a logical step is for all Quartet members (the US, EU, Russia and UN) to support the Obama proposal by declaring any further expansion of settlements illegal and refusing to veto UN security council decisions to condemn such settlements. This might restrain Israel and also bring Palestinians to the negotiating table.
At the same time, the Quartet should join with Turkey and invite Syria and Israel to negotiate a solution to the Golan Heights dispute.
Without ascribing blame to any of the disputing parties, the Quartet also should begin rebuilding Gaza by organising relief efforts under the supervision of an active special envoy, overseeing a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas, and mediating an opening of the crossings. The cries of homeless and freezing people demand immediate relief.
This is a time for bold action, and the season for forgiveness, reconciliation and peace.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/dec/19/gaza-rebuilt-peace-process-suffering
There's nothing to be ashamed of Reb. Even if a Jordanian was able to pass the border yet he decided to stay instead, hell even because the fear of being killed, there was nothing for him to be ashamed of. Sometimes you have to go to wars. You have to defend something and you hope you get something out of this. Sometimes you are weak, but they invade your home. You have to defend your life and your family's lives in every way possible even if you know that there's no hope of doing so. But this is what you do as a normal being when you feel yourself and your family in danger. Years and years of being oppressed by Israelis, years and years of people getting killed there, years and years of bloodshed...But this war IS unfair. You won't get back what you lost by giving your blood. However what a Palestinian living in Palestine does is beyond me and you and JBF who are not living there even though it's really sad for us seeing what we see there. Some years ago I read an interview with a Palestinian who had been hospitalized in Iran and I figured that for these people the whole concept of "living" has lost its meaning and value. But it's not the case for you, neither is it the case for JBF. So I'm sorry, I hate it when he says hey go and take back what you lost, you can do it by sacrificing your blood. It's disgusting. If he really thinks this way, he just has to leave Jordan, do whatever possible to get to Gaza and even if the guards kill him on the borders he still can be glad that his blood has turned to a symbol for freedom and resistance thus it has already played its role. I'm really sad for your people Reb and I'm sure I would have had rocks in my hands had I been one of them but living in Palestine you're in a situation where you don't care how much it'd be meaningless and futile if you lose your life. This is the only thing you can do it, so you're simply going for it. What JBF says, who's living in his right mind in a place away from what happens in Palestine, is just hypocritical even if I completely understand his sorrow.
Shattering Israel's image of 'democracy'
A struggle over land, home demolitions, and an Israeli government working with Jewish agencies to "develop" the land for the benefit of one group at the expense of another. It could be a picture of the illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, but in fact, it's inside Israel – in the Negev.
The Negev, or al-Naqab in Arabic, is an area that since the inception of the state has been targeted by Israeli governments, along with agencies like the Jewish National Fund (JNF), for so-called "development".
This investment in the country's periphery is characterised by systematic discrimination against the Negev's Bedouin population, many of whom live in "unrecognised" villages or townships. Recent developments bring these policies into sharper focus, as well as pointing to fundamental problems with Israel's image as "the Middle East's only democracy".
First, three vital clinics serving Bedouin women and children have been shut down, with the result that the nearest equivalent facilities are now hours away. The official reason is a shortage of staff, but this does not sit well with the severity of the health problem among these Bedouin children, where the infant mortality rate is more than three times higher than in the Israeli Jewish community.
Second, in mid-November the Knesset passed an amendment to prevent around 25,000 Bedouins from voting for their mayor and regional councillors. Elections had already been postponed for two years, but now the law means "that as long as the minister of interior deems the residents not ready for elections, the elections will be postponed".
Finally, six weeks ago, lawyers acting on behalf of the Bedouins who live in the unrecognised village of Umm al-Hieran appealed against a previous court decision ordering the eviction of the community's residents.
Ironically, this village had been established by the Israeli military in the 1950s as part of a wider-scale forced relocation of Bedouins from territory intended for Jewish settlement. Now they are once again being targeted for removal, labelled "intruders", to make way for the planned creation of a Jewish town, Hiran.
Meanwhile, there have been reports about a Bedouin "mini-intifada" in the Negev, with Israeli military personnel targeted on the roads near a key base. Such fears are not new: a Haaretz article in 2004 predicted that a "Bedouin intifada" was "on the way" – a conclusion supposedly shared by senior government and military leaders.
What then, is the wider context? As a Human Rights Watch report put it last year, "the state's motives for these discriminatory, exclusionary and punitive policies can be elicited from policy documents and official rhetoric". The Israeli state's aim: "maximising its control over Negev land and increasing the Jewish population in the area for strategic, economic and demographic reasons". Professor Oren Yifatchel of Ben-Gurion University has put it bluntly: "the government wants to de-Arabise the land".
This is the common thread that runs through Israel's approach to the Negev since 1948: from physical expulsions and the legislation used to exclude communities from official recognition, through to budget allocations, creating Bedouin townships, and the flipside of "development" – demolitions.
In 2003, then-PM Ariel Sharon announced a new initiative calling "for the establishment of some 30 new towns" in the Galilee and Negev. One of the PM's advisers at the time, Uzi Keren, told a radio station that it was important to locate the new towns in "the places that are important to the state, that is, for Jewish settlement", in order to "strengthen settlement in areas sparse in Jewish population".
One of the groups helping the state is the Jewish Agency for Israel. A few years ago, the organisation's foreign media liaison officer was quoted on the JTA news website as describing the goal of the joint venture with the Israeli government as "a Jewish majority in all parts of Israel".
Another key organisation involved is the Jewish National Fund. Its UK website, for example, talks about how "the future of Israel lies in the Negev" and says the goal of the "major initiative" known as "Blueprint Negev" is to "revitalise Israel's southern region".
In January, the chief executive of JNF in the US, Russell Robinson, expressed his concern that "if we don't get 500,000 people to move to the Negev in the next five years, we're going to lose it". To what – or who – went unsaid. In 2005, Robinson was clearer about the consequences of the JNF's "project to remake" the demographics: "such an influx" of Jews would mean "a certain amount of displacement" for the Bedouin.
Robinson actually tried to present this as helping tackle Bedouin unemployment. With their slick focus on "environmentally friendly" initiatives and helping the disadvantaged Arabs, groups like the JNF do their best to make sure that scenes like this go unnoticed.
This is the Israel that its government and propagandists do not want to be seen, the Israel where non-Jews are a demographic "threat", and the state works with agencies (often funded by western donors) to "secure" a Jewish majority. It is the reality behind the myth of Israel as the region's only democracy, and away from the weekly twists and turns of the peace process, such policies shed light on the root problem preventing a resolution of the conflict just as well as, or better than, the number of housing units in Gilo.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/03/israel-negev
A struggle over land, home demolitions, and an Israeli government working with Jewish agencies to "develop" the land for the benefit of one group at the expense of another. It could be a picture of the illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, but in fact, it's inside Israel – in the Negev.
The Negev, or al-Naqab in Arabic, is an area that since the inception of the state has been targeted by Israeli governments, along with agencies like the Jewish National Fund (JNF), for so-called "development".
This investment in the country's periphery is characterised by systematic discrimination against the Negev's Bedouin population, many of whom live in "unrecognised" villages or townships. Recent developments bring these policies into sharper focus, as well as pointing to fundamental problems with Israel's image as "the Middle East's only democracy".
First, three vital clinics serving Bedouin women and children have been shut down, with the result that the nearest equivalent facilities are now hours away. The official reason is a shortage of staff, but this does not sit well with the severity of the health problem among these Bedouin children, where the infant mortality rate is more than three times higher than in the Israeli Jewish community.
Second, in mid-November the Knesset passed an amendment to prevent around 25,000 Bedouins from voting for their mayor and regional councillors. Elections had already been postponed for two years, but now the law means "that as long as the minister of interior deems the residents not ready for elections, the elections will be postponed".
Finally, six weeks ago, lawyers acting on behalf of the Bedouins who live in the unrecognised village of Umm al-Hieran appealed against a previous court decision ordering the eviction of the community's residents.
Ironically, this village had been established by the Israeli military in the 1950s as part of a wider-scale forced relocation of Bedouins from territory intended for Jewish settlement. Now they are once again being targeted for removal, labelled "intruders", to make way for the planned creation of a Jewish town, Hiran.
Meanwhile, there have been reports about a Bedouin "mini-intifada" in the Negev, with Israeli military personnel targeted on the roads near a key base. Such fears are not new: a Haaretz article in 2004 predicted that a "Bedouin intifada" was "on the way" – a conclusion supposedly shared by senior government and military leaders.
What then, is the wider context? As a Human Rights Watch report put it last year, "the state's motives for these discriminatory, exclusionary and punitive policies can be elicited from policy documents and official rhetoric". The Israeli state's aim: "maximising its control over Negev land and increasing the Jewish population in the area for strategic, economic and demographic reasons". Professor Oren Yifatchel of Ben-Gurion University has put it bluntly: "the government wants to de-Arabise the land".
This is the common thread that runs through Israel's approach to the Negev since 1948: from physical expulsions and the legislation used to exclude communities from official recognition, through to budget allocations, creating Bedouin townships, and the flipside of "development" – demolitions.
In 2003, then-PM Ariel Sharon announced a new initiative calling "for the establishment of some 30 new towns" in the Galilee and Negev. One of the PM's advisers at the time, Uzi Keren, told a radio station that it was important to locate the new towns in "the places that are important to the state, that is, for Jewish settlement", in order to "strengthen settlement in areas sparse in Jewish population".
One of the groups helping the state is the Jewish Agency for Israel. A few years ago, the organisation's foreign media liaison officer was quoted on the JTA news website as describing the goal of the joint venture with the Israeli government as "a Jewish majority in all parts of Israel".
Another key organisation involved is the Jewish National Fund. Its UK website, for example, talks about how "the future of Israel lies in the Negev" and says the goal of the "major initiative" known as "Blueprint Negev" is to "revitalise Israel's southern region".
In January, the chief executive of JNF in the US, Russell Robinson, expressed his concern that "if we don't get 500,000 people to move to the Negev in the next five years, we're going to lose it". To what – or who – went unsaid. In 2005, Robinson was clearer about the consequences of the JNF's "project to remake" the demographics: "such an influx" of Jews would mean "a certain amount of displacement" for the Bedouin.
Robinson actually tried to present this as helping tackle Bedouin unemployment. With their slick focus on "environmentally friendly" initiatives and helping the disadvantaged Arabs, groups like the JNF do their best to make sure that scenes like this go unnoticed.
This is the Israel that its government and propagandists do not want to be seen, the Israel where non-Jews are a demographic "threat", and the state works with agencies (often funded by western donors) to "secure" a Jewish majority. It is the reality behind the myth of Israel as the region's only democracy, and away from the weekly twists and turns of the peace process, such policies shed light on the root problem preventing a resolution of the conflict just as well as, or better than, the number of housing units in Gilo.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/03/israel-negev
Of course, we don't live the same conditions of those inside Palestine, and I don't think that JBF even is comparing his current life conditions with the life conditions of those living under occupation, but you have to take in consideration, Hoori, that JBF has relatives there and he cares for them. He doesn't say that they should sacrifice themselves without feeling what they are living. We hear from our relatives there how they can not keep on living under such very bad conditions, and I have to tell you that this blood sentence that JBF said is originally said by those inside Palestine, because they say "if we have to die, we have to hurt those who kill us as much as we can before being taken to the slaughter".
A great appreciation for your feelings, Hoori. I felt a real human soul when reading your words.
A great appreciation for your feelings, Hoori. I felt a real human soul when reading your words.
Nice excuses 
I was wondering for a long time and I keep forgetting to ask.
Now I can do it
If there is a war with Israel. Arab states vs Israel. Will you volunteer? What about the rest of the non-Palestinians? Will you guys volunteer and go there to fight Israel?
Now I can do it
If there is a war with Israel. Arab states vs Israel. Will you volunteer? What about the rest of the non-Palestinians? Will you guys volunteer and go there to fight Israel?
Fair enough. Still, if I had relatives there, I'd have hoped wholeheartedly that they wouldn't do anything crazy because I would have wanted them to stay alive. I'd know that remaining calm is impossible for them but this would be still the only thing I'd have hoped for. I already said that it's really understandable for a Palestinian living in Palestine to think that way, but for JBF, no, I can't get it.
Even if it was a lost battle from the beginning?
Even if it was a lost battle from the beginning?