Israeli-Palestinian conflict (23 Viewers)
- Thread starter ReBeL
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So I have a slightly different but related question to ask of some folks here.
What do you think about the international boycotts of places like Starbucks (their CEO is a Zionist, IMO), Nestlé (not actually American nor Israeli, but???), Coca-Cola, Johnson & Johnson... etc.? e.g.:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...t-for-its-growing-links-to-israel-749289.html
http://www.eirigi.org/latest/latest180109.html
On the one hand, I totally respect people trying to get involved in whatever way they can. But on the other, having some way -- no matter how much it grasps at straws -- isn't necessarily better than no way at all.
Focused boycotts work in some ways (e.g, divestiture from Apartheid South Africa). But this is far from the first time someone boycotted a multi-national corporate conglomerate a la McDonald's. And in the end, it often hurts local economies at least as much as the overseas headquarters and any big-shot policymakers. This is not even boycotting Israel directly, as Andy's avatar suggests.
I say this because I took a lot of flack on other discussion groups for dismissing some of these boycotts as being completely symbolic but effectively pointless. Zionism isn't going to go away because people in Dublin decide to stop drinking coffee from a Seattle-based multinational.
Examples like that make me think some people just want to make themselves feel better by giving themselves the illusion that they have some level of control or influence in something they pretty much have very, very little control or influence over. And telling people that going through these motions probably does more to make the boycotter feel better than anything else constructive drew me lots of, well, outrage from some folks.
To me, it's b.s. that one would go, "So I have some good news and bad news for you, Mrs. Habbash. The bad news is that the IDF killed your family with rockets. The good news is that a bunch of bleeding hearts in Dublin now feel better about themselves because they stopped drinking coffee from a Seattle-based multinational in support of your cause."
:wth:
I know it sounds very cynical, and is. But there are few things that annoy me more than people who are doing something largely to make themselves feel better -- rather than their stated altruistic reasons -- and they are in violent denial about that intention. Because they're not even honest with themselves.
What do you think about the international boycotts of places like Starbucks (their CEO is a Zionist, IMO), Nestlé (not actually American nor Israeli, but???), Coca-Cola, Johnson & Johnson... etc.? e.g.:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...t-for-its-growing-links-to-israel-749289.html
http://www.eirigi.org/latest/latest180109.html
On the one hand, I totally respect people trying to get involved in whatever way they can. But on the other, having some way -- no matter how much it grasps at straws -- isn't necessarily better than no way at all.
Focused boycotts work in some ways (e.g, divestiture from Apartheid South Africa). But this is far from the first time someone boycotted a multi-national corporate conglomerate a la McDonald's. And in the end, it often hurts local economies at least as much as the overseas headquarters and any big-shot policymakers. This is not even boycotting Israel directly, as Andy's avatar suggests.
I say this because I took a lot of flack on other discussion groups for dismissing some of these boycotts as being completely symbolic but effectively pointless. Zionism isn't going to go away because people in Dublin decide to stop drinking coffee from a Seattle-based multinational.
Examples like that make me think some people just want to make themselves feel better by giving themselves the illusion that they have some level of control or influence in something they pretty much have very, very little control or influence over. And telling people that going through these motions probably does more to make the boycotter feel better than anything else constructive drew me lots of, well, outrage from some folks.
To me, it's b.s. that one would go, "So I have some good news and bad news for you, Mrs. Habbash. The bad news is that the IDF killed your family with rockets. The good news is that a bunch of bleeding hearts in Dublin now feel better about themselves because they stopped drinking coffee from a Seattle-based multinational in support of your cause."
:wth:
I know it sounds very cynical, and is. But there are few things that annoy me more than people who are doing something largely to make themselves feel better -- rather than their stated altruistic reasons -- and they are in violent denial about that intention. Because they're not even honest with themselves.
i share the same exact feeling swag, same for large demonstration, especially for this case. But as a starbucks guy(spare me the flak 
), ever since these last events it's more of an a posteriori reaction, as in i wasnt planning to voice my opinion through boycott; but that coffee just doesnt sit right anymore.
However, you re absolutely right meaningless actions that do more to sedate our anger and guilt than actually help solve a problem are quite despicable.
), ever since these last events it's more of an a posteriori reaction, as in i wasnt planning to voice my opinion through boycott; but that coffee just doesnt sit right anymore. However, you re absolutely right meaningless actions that do more to sedate our anger and guilt than actually help solve a problem are quite despicable.
i share the same exact feeling swag, same for large demonstration, especially for this case. But as a starbucks guy(spare me the flak ), ever since these last events it's more of an a posteriori reaction, as in i wasnt planning to voice my opinion through boycott; but that coffee just doesnt sit right anymore.
However, you re absolutely right meaningless actions that do more to sedate our anger and guilt than actually help solve a problem are quite despicable.
), ever since these last events it's more of an a posteriori reaction, as in i wasnt planning to voice my opinion through boycott; but that coffee just doesnt sit right anymore. However, you re absolutely right meaningless actions that do more to sedate our anger and guilt than actually help solve a problem are quite despicable.
Intelligentsia rocks. I envy you guys. But they have great stuff here via Blue Bottle Coffee, Ritual Roasters, and even Mr. Espresso (the name is far cheesier than the product). But like Intelligentsia in Chicago, you either have to be near one or make your own with their stuff.
Peet's Coffee & Tea is an ok chain, better than *$, but that still ain't saying much. I generally prefer to go a little further distance and get something from a good mom & pop I know about.
Peet's Coffee & Tea is an ok chain, better than *$, but that still ain't saying much. I generally prefer to go a little further distance and get something from a good mom & pop I know about.
Its complicated. If I do get espresso (mind you I'm in rural WV) its usually at some local coffee shop. In Charleston it's Taylor Books, which is very good stuff. In Shepherdstown we have The Lost Dog, but the draw back is it's the local hangout for the "causies". I usually order coffee from an exporter via my pops. I've got a solid Mr Coffee for brewing and a 4 speed grinder that does espresso if I tell it to.
well I explained you before but you didn't want to understand. If you read my posts in this thread since the beginning, you would understood me better.
I shared your sadness those 21 days, and that's not just a meaningless sentence, I really did. I was disgusted and frustrated as much as you were. But the question was whether if Hamas is a terrorist group or not. Yes they are, they killed innocent civilians.
Let me explain you something to understand me a little better. Probably no Armenian will say the things I will, but this the reality. At the war times in the beginning of the 20th century, Armenians were suffering from the Ottoman regime, just like your people was suffering all the years from Israelis. So Armenians were frustrated as much as your people were (not just Armenians only, the whole people/non-Turks in the area). We had this extremist nationalist group/movement called Tashnag (it still exists till today). While the Ottomans were on war here and there, our Tashnag decided to attack the civilians while the Turkish army was away, and others joined the Russian army. and you know very well the rest of the history. Your Ottoman heroes got frustrated, and decided to end Armenian ethnicity, and that resulted a loss over million and the rest escaped from death all over the world. Syria, Iraq, Lebanon Iran etc, THAT's GENOCIDE!!
Tashnag gets the blame somehow, just like hamas is the one to be blamed. Sure I am not saying that Armenians deserved the genocide because of Tashnag, just like I never said that Palestinians deserved these mass killings because of Hamas. That's the whole point, both of the organizations are terrorists and don't have my support. I believe Palestinians have a better of chance of solving this issue, than we Armenians had at that time. Cause Ottomans were much uglier back then, you know the death penalties and all they gave to those who disagreed with them.. It's not the case today with Palestine..
Tashnag risked their own people to death just like Hamas is doing it today. There is other options Rebel, yes Israel are racist party, but then again they are not killing you for no reason. Are we forgetting the rocket missiles and the suicide bombers all these years? All I am saying that is not the way to solve this. You guys suffered just like us, but you should make some sacrifices, share the land with them, some of you want to remove them from the whole area, that won't happen Rebel, fighting for that won't win any of the side. No one is going anywhere, that's why I voted they should have a state and in the area, next to Palestine. You are asking me to take sides, but I can't, I look at both sides equally, both of you are humans in the end and deserve to live in peace, how is that a bad thing? why would that make you get mad at me? Armenia sacrificed it's lands too, I don't want the lands back, I am over it. Told you I am not a nationalist, and am not intended to become one..
I am the one who should be mad here Rebel, I might have different opinion with you, but you supporting Ottomans is really ugly, you said it yourself that you respect our pain, and I know most of Palestinians does (you are not the only Palestinian to tell me that). And not to forget, Arabs suffered a lot from Ottomans too, ever watched "ikhwet tourab"? That's surely based on true story, and that was in our education system too.. Just because Turkish prime minister has gave you a lot of support, how could you turn your back to history, and ignore the past by supporting the Ottomans?
I shared your sadness those 21 days, and that's not just a meaningless sentence, I really did. I was disgusted and frustrated as much as you were. But the question was whether if Hamas is a terrorist group or not. Yes they are, they killed innocent civilians.
Let me explain you something to understand me a little better. Probably no Armenian will say the things I will, but this the reality. At the war times in the beginning of the 20th century, Armenians were suffering from the Ottoman regime, just like your people was suffering all the years from Israelis. So Armenians were frustrated as much as your people were (not just Armenians only, the whole people/non-Turks in the area). We had this extremist nationalist group/movement called Tashnag (it still exists till today). While the Ottomans were on war here and there, our Tashnag decided to attack the civilians while the Turkish army was away, and others joined the Russian army. and you know very well the rest of the history. Your Ottoman heroes got frustrated, and decided to end Armenian ethnicity, and that resulted a loss over million and the rest escaped from death all over the world. Syria, Iraq, Lebanon Iran etc, THAT's GENOCIDE!!
Tashnag gets the blame somehow, just like hamas is the one to be blamed. Sure I am not saying that Armenians deserved the genocide because of Tashnag, just like I never said that Palestinians deserved these mass killings because of Hamas. That's the whole point, both of the organizations are terrorists and don't have my support. I believe Palestinians have a better of chance of solving this issue, than we Armenians had at that time. Cause Ottomans were much uglier back then, you know the death penalties and all they gave to those who disagreed with them.. It's not the case today with Palestine..
Tashnag risked their own people to death just like Hamas is doing it today. There is other options Rebel, yes Israel are racist party, but then again they are not killing you for no reason. Are we forgetting the rocket missiles and the suicide bombers all these years? All I am saying that is not the way to solve this. You guys suffered just like us, but you should make some sacrifices, share the land with them, some of you want to remove them from the whole area, that won't happen Rebel, fighting for that won't win any of the side. No one is going anywhere, that's why I voted they should have a state and in the area, next to Palestine. You are asking me to take sides, but I can't, I look at both sides equally, both of you are humans in the end and deserve to live in peace, how is that a bad thing? why would that make you get mad at me? Armenia sacrificed it's lands too, I don't want the lands back, I am over it. Told you I am not a nationalist, and am not intended to become one..
I am the one who should be mad here Rebel, I might have different opinion with you, but you supporting Ottomans is really ugly, you said it yourself that you respect our pain, and I know most of Palestinians does (you are not the only Palestinian to tell me that). And not to forget, Arabs suffered a lot from Ottomans too, ever watched "ikhwet tourab"? That's surely based on true story, and that was in our education system too.. Just because Turkish prime minister has gave you a lot of support, how could you turn your back to history, and ignore the past by supporting the Ottomans?
Had the same argument with some relatives and work collegues. Not just Israel bit, some wanting to boycott denmark for their backwards bigotry in targetting a religion. But mainly about Israel and this latest massacre, I applaud the sentiment, but I besides genuinely telling them try to research what or who is a zionist in your own instead of believing every company randomly mentionned, but primarly try to find a conclusive way to boycott something specifically. Tried to put it gently, but mainly said its a very empty gesture done for the sake of it, and how it mostly effects the local grocer then go effect higher up. One of my collegues has a cousin who owns a big local super market in Cairo, and I took that as an example that a boycott is more likely directly make the poorer poorer, by hurting the livelyhood of your everyday working bee like him first and foremost, then hurt big congolomerates like those targeted, let alone even if it hurt them, it would hardly hurt them enough to change their policies.
The only way to directly effect the wallets of those big kahunas is BAD BAD PR, and there is no way that will happen any time soon (only chance is if Israel are viewed as SA's apartheid, and how it became increasingly hard and nightmarish PR for the greedy bussinessmen to wheel and deal with a shunned Govt like that).
Actually they do in Isalm
your problem is that you talk about Islam like something you 100% know from head to toe which is not true
before you advice me i suggest u read about
Islam and Secularism
If you r interestd then you can start from:
http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=116
your problem is that you talk about Islam like something you 100% know from head to toe which is not true
before you advice me i suggest u read about
Islam and Secularism
If you r interestd then you can start from:
http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=116