Israeli-Palestinian conflict (82 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No


Results are only viewable after voting.

Alen

Ѕenior Аdmin
Apr 2, 2007
53,998
considering the crunch in the credit market i am sure they can find attractive lease opportunities, on a serious note i'd say somewhere in africa is very plausible
Well, wherever they go there will surely be problems with the people who already live there or with the nations living close to them. That's why i voted Yes on the last question. We already have the problem and i'm not a fan of a geographic transfer of the problem. Sure, they can probably find a place with a smaller population density and there might not be as many killings as there are in the middle east, but they'll still be taking someone elses land and country, and i don't think it's acceptable. (i also think that what happened in 1948 wasn't acceptable but unfortunately it happened).
 

GordoDeCentral

Diez
Moderator
Apr 14, 2005
70,839
Well, wherever they go there will surely be problems with the people who already live there or with the nations living close to them. That's why i voted Yes on the last question. We already have the problem and i'm not a fan of a geographic transfer of the problem. Sure, they can probably find a place with a smaller population density and there might not be as many killings as there are in the middle east, but they'll still be taking someone elses land and country, and i don't think it's acceptable. (i also think that what happened in 1948 wasn't acceptable but unfortunately it happened).
i feel ya, but i meant land that can be bought a la Alaska, but we both know thats impossible because it was suggested to them in the first place and they refused; it was a matter of personal preference not realistic possibility
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,665
Gaza a 'test lab for new weapon'
12/01/2009 22:16 - (SA)


Oslo - Israel is testing a new "extremely nasty" type of weapon in Gaza, two medics charged as they returned home to Norway on Monday after spending 10 days working at a hospital in the war-torn Palestinian territory.

"There's a very strong suspicion I think that Gaza is now being used as a test laboratory for new weapons," Mads Gilbert told reporters at Oslo's Gardermoen airport, commenting on the kinds of injuries he and his colleague Erik Fosse had seen while working at the Shifa Hospital in Gaza.

The two medics, who were sent into the war zone by the pro-Palestinian aid organisation Norwac on December 31, said they had seen clear signs that Dense Inert Metal Explosives (DIME), an experimental kind of explosive, were being used in Gaza.

"This is a new generation of very powerful small explosives that detonates with an extreme power and dissipates its power within a range of five to 10 metres," said Gilbert, 61.

"We have not seen the casualties affected directly by the bomb because they are normally torn to pieces and do not survive, but we have seen a number of very brutal amputations... without shrapnel injuries which we strongly suspect must have been caused by the DIME weapons," he added.

Injuries look very different

The weapon "causes the tissue to be torn from the flesh. It looks very different (from a shrapnel injury). I have seen and treated a lot of different injuries for the last 30 years in different war zones, and this looks completely different," said Fosse, 58.

"If you are in the immediate (vicinity of) a DIME weapon, it's like your legs get torn off. It's an enormous pressure wave and there is no shrapnel," he explained.

Gilbert also accused Israel of having used the weapon in the 2006 Lebanon war and previously in Gaza, and referred to studies showing wounds from the explosive could cause lethal forms of cancer within just four to six months.

"Israel should disclose what weapons they use and the international community should make an investigation," he said, stressing the amount of damage apparently caused by the new form of explosive.

"We are not soft-skinned when it comes to war injuries, but these amputations are really extremely nasty and for many of the patients not survivable," he said.
Wanna know how you can tell that's propaganda? :D

Ok... here goes...:D When was the last time you saw a Jew drop some change and not pick it up? Get it? DIMES!:p

On a more serious note:

Could also be just "plain old" schrapnel injuries magnified by the urban setting of the conflict. You know, bombs bouncing off walls, exploding in closed in spaces and at obtuse angles, etc, etc.
 

Enron

Tickle Me
Moderator
Oct 11, 2005
75,665
The tungsten alloys used in those DIMEs are said to have a carcinogenic effect.

http://www.afrri.usuhs.mil/www/outreach/pdf/tungsten_cancer.pdf
Oh no. They forgot to test the effects on humans and only tested the environmental effects. :shocked:

Well, I guess they'll have to find some other alloy to make killing devices with now.

Though it has always seemed ironic and a little odd to me, more recently now, the lengths we (society) go to manifest destruction of each other. It's like destruction has become PC.
 
OP

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #1,593
    For the Arab speakers here, anyone listening to BBC Radio in Arabic? I had a 2 hour road-trip today, so I was listening to BBC world service (Arabic version) the whole time.

    There is a clear split between the Palestinians. Of course, they all hate Israel; but not all of them are pro-Hamas.

    The pro-Hamas believe that Hamas should fight back and defend Palestine for honor and dignity, since there is nothing left to lose, and that the women and children are dying an honorable martyr's death.

    The anti-Hamas believe that name of Palestine has been dragged down to the lowest of lows; the civilians are dying for no reason and that the outcome of this war will do nothing for the Palestinian cause.

    One caller from Gaza completely lost it screaming on the phone saying,

    "Why do russians, germans, americans, ethiopians all go to Israel and get an Israeli nationality; while myself, my parents, my grand parents, and great grand parents who were ALL born in Palestine don't get to have a recognised nationality? Who the hell is supposed to represent me? I live in Germany, Kuwait, Canada, USA, the Gulf. Nobody would even consider to give me a nationality even. Palestinian people are treated as the bottom class citizens of the world!"
    Those who are anti-Hamas now, Haytham, are against resistance and against defending the Palestinian kids. They are the minority now. One of them is Abbas and his gang. They don't represent more than 15% of palestinians right now, and that is why Abbas is so scared to make elections right now on its exact dates. USA and Israel try to help them in doing so by stopping democracy.

    ßüякε;1861785 said:
    Buying his house and his coming back 50 years later blasting you for not letting him in his house is different.
    Who told you we sold anything?

    ßüякε;1862060 said:
    Do they have a Zionist/Jewish party in Palestine?
    We have jewish representatives in the Palestinian legislative Council. They are representing those who lived in Nablus city with Palestinians since centuries. They hate Israel and Zionism more than Muslims by the way.

    I don't really want to advocate Israel, but here in Slovakia, we had a party which on paper was a standard populist party, and in fact it was Neo-nazi. And it was banned. So, does anyone know what the real intentions of Balad are, whether they are the same as the declared ones?
    Look, tibike. In Israel, there are more than 1 million Palestinians. They are the ones that didn't leave Palestine when Jews came in 1948. These Palestinians are rated a second-hand citizen that doesn't deserve to have the whole citizenship rights. Abnaa' Al-Balad refuses that and tries to say to the world: "Look. We accepted having Israel on our land. They are still treating us badly with a big discrimination. We deserve better treatment". That doesn't suit what Israel wants to say to the world about its "nice" treatment of its non-Jewish citizens.

    Now the question that everyone has been avoiding, is this really the biggest Israeli massacre in Gaza or is the thread title misleading?
    Yes, it is. In 1956, the biggest attack before this one was an attack in 1956 in Khan Younes in Gaza strip, where Zionists killed 250 people. And I intended to say the biggest massacre in Gaza, not in Palestine because Palestinians had more deadly massacres in other regions else than Gaza.

    Didn't Hamas also try to supress Fatah, their opposition?
    Hamas won the elections. I'm not a Hamas member, by the way, but Fateh were bad losers who didn't accept defeat, and the Western world tried to support them against Hamas.


    Let's expand the borders of Islam, let's kill and go further, let's invade all the nations who are not Muslims, let's bring the message of God to them, let's establish the kingdom of Islam.

    Dear funny Ahmed, I know the history of my country way better than you. We were among the people who were enforced to be Muslim by good intentions of your beloved proPHET Muhammad. This is not related to this thread,yes, but neither is US government being terrorist or not.
    You can say whatever you want about your problems with Prophet Mohammad in the sub-forum called "Religion", not here.
     
    Apr 12, 2004
    77,165
    Those who are anti-Hamas now, Haytham, are against resistance and against defending the Palestinian kids. They are the minority now. One of them is Abbas and his gang. They don't represent more than 15% of palestinians right now, and that is why Abbas is so scared to make elections right now on its exact dates. USA and Israel try to help them in doing so by stopping democracy.



    Who told you we sold anything?



    We have jewish representatives in the Palestinian legislative Council. They are representing those who lived in Nablus city with Palestinians since centuries. They hate Israel and Zionism more than Muslims by the way.



    Look, tibike. In Israel, there are more than 1 million Palestinians. They are the ones that didn't leave Palestine when Jews came in 1948. These Palestinians are rated a second-hand citizen that doesn't deserve to have the whole citizenship rights. Abnaa' Al-Balad refuses that and tries to say to the world: "Look. We accepted having Israel on our land. They are still treating us badly with a big discrimination. We deserve better treatment". That doesn't suit what Israel wants to say to the world about its "nice" treatment of its non-Jewish citizens.



    Yes, it is. In 1956, the biggest attack before this one was an attack in 1956 in Khan Younes in Gaza strip, where Zionists killed 250 people. And I intended to say the biggest massacre in Gaza, not in Palestine because Palestinians had more deadly massacres in other regions else than Gaza.



    Hamas won the elections. I'm not a Hamas member, by the way, but Fateh were bad losers who didn't accept defeat, and the Western world tried to support them against Hamas.




    You can say whatever you want about your problems with Prophet Mohammad in the sub-forum called "Religion", not here.
    I said Enron explained it better than I did.

    And who's we, Jordanian?
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #1,595
    By the way, this night is the most violent night since the attack began. Some Israeli special forces tried to get inside a Palestinian neighborhood called Tal Al-Hawa. They were surprised by being ambushed there by Palestinian resistance. In an attempt to make their soldiers run away of that ambush, they are bombing everything right now from air, ground and sea.

    ßüякε;1862352 said:
    I said Enron explained it better than I did.

    And who's we, Jordanian?
    Palestinians.
     

    Enron

    Tickle Me
    Moderator
    Oct 11, 2005
    75,665
    By the way, this night is the most violent night since the attack began. Some Israeli special forces tried to get inside a Palestinian neighborhood called Tal Al-Hawa. They were surprised by being ambushed there by Palestinian resistance. In an attempt to make their soldiers run away of that ambush, they are bombing everything right now from air, ground and sea.
    Yikes.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #1,598
    White phosphorus bombs and shells are being used tonight a lot. Watch them live on Aljazeera.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #1,600
    The lying silence of those who know


    "When the truth is replaced by silence," the Soviet dissident Yevgeny Yevtushenko said, "the silence is a lie." It may appear the silence is broken on Gaza. The cocoons of murdered children, wrapped in green, together with boxes containing their dismembered parents and the cries of grief and rage of everyone in that death camp by the sea, can be viewed on al-Jazeera and YouTube, even glimpsed on the BBC. But Russia's incorrigible poet was not referring to the ephemeral we call news; he was asking why those who knew why never spoke it and so denied it. Among the Anglo-American intelligentsia, this is especially striking. It is they who hold the keys to the great storehouses of knowledge: the historiographies and archives that lead us to the why.

    They know that the horror now raining on Gaza has little to do with Hamas or, absurdly, " Israel's right to exist." They know the opposite to be true: that Palestine's right to exist was canceled 61 years ago and the expulsion and, if necessary, extinction of the indigenous people was planned and executed by the founders of Israel . They know, for example, that the infamous "Plan D" resulted in the murderous depopulation of 369 Palestinian towns and villages by the Haganah (Jewish army) and that massacre upon massacre of Palestinian civilians in such places as Deir Yassin, al-Dawayima, Eilaboun, Jish, Ramle and Lydda are referred to in official records as "ethnic cleansing."

    Arriving at a scene of this carnage, David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, was asked by a general, Yigal Allon, "What shall we do with the Arabs?" Ben-Gurion, reported the Israeli historian Benny Morris, "made a dismissive, energetic gesture with his hand and said, ‘Expel them'. The order to expel an entire population "without attention to age" was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, a future prime minister promoted by the world's most efficient propaganda as a peacemaker. The terrible irony of this was addressed only in passing, such as when the Mapan Party co-leader Meir Ya'ari noted "how easily" Israel's leaders spoke of how it was "possible and permissible to take women, children and old men and to fill the roads with them because such is the imperative of strategy … who remembers who used this means against our people during the [Second World] war … we are appalled."

    Every subsequent "war" Israel has waged has had the same objective: the expulsion of the native people and the theft of more and more land. The lie of David and Goliath, of perennial victim, reached its apogee in 1967 when the propaganda became a righteous fury that claimed the Arab states had struck first. Since then, mostly Jewish truth-tellers such as Avi Schlaim, Noam Chomsky, the late Tanya Reinhart, Neve Gordon, Tom Segev, Yuri Avnery, Ilan Pappe and Norman Finklestein have dispatched this and other myths and revealed a state shorn of the humane traditions of Judaism, whose unrelenting militarism is the sum of an expansionist, lawless and racist ideology called zionism.

    "It seems," wrote the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe on 2 January, "that even the most horrendous crimes, such as the genocide in Gaza, are treated as desperate events, unconnected to anything that happened in the past and not associated with any ideology or system … Very much as the apartheid ideology explained the oppressive policies of the South African government, this ideology – in its most consensual and simplistic variety – has allowed all the Israeli governments in the past and the present to dehumanize the Palestinians wherever they are and strive to destroy them. The means altered from period to period, from location to location, as did the narrative covering up these atrocities. But there is a clear pattern [of genocide]."

    In Gaza , the enforced starvation and denial of humanitarian aid, the piracy of life-giving resources such as fuel and water, the denial of medicines and treatment, the systematic destruction of infrastructure and the killing and maiming of the civilian population, 50 per cent of whom are children, meet the international standard of the Genocide Convention. "Is it an irresponsible overstatement," asked Richard Falk, the United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and international law authority at Princeton University , "to associate the treatment of Palestinians with this criminalized Nazi record of collective atrocity? I think not."

    In describing a "holocaust-in-the making," Falk was alluding to the Nazis' establishment of Jewish ghettos in Poland . For one month in 1943, the captive Polish Jews led by Mordechaj Anielewiz fought off the German army and the SS, but their resistance was finally crushed and the Nazis exacted their final revenge.

    Falk is also a Jew. Today's holocaust-in-the-making, which began with Ben-Gurion's Plan D, is in its final stages. The difference today is that it is a joint US-Israeli project. The F-16 jet fighters, the 250-pound "smart" GBU-39 bombs supplied on the eve of the attack on Gaza , having been approved by a Congress dominated by the Democratic Party, plus the annual $2.4 billion in war-making "aid," give Washington de facto control. It beggars belief that President-elect Obama was not informed. Outspoken on Russia 's war in Georgia and the terrorism in Mumbai, Obama's silence on Palestine marks his approval, which is to be expected, given his obsequiousness to the Tel Aviv regime and its lobbyists during the presidential campaign and his appointment of Zionists as his secretary of state, chief of staff and principal Middle East advisers. When Aretha Franklin sings "Think," her wonderful 1960s anthem to freedom, at Obama's inauguration on 21 January, I trust someone with the brave heart of Muntadar al-Zaidi, the shoe-thrower, will shout: " Gaza!"

    The asymmetry of conquest and terror is clear. Plan D is now "Operation Cast Lead," which is the unfinished "Operation Justified Vengeance." The latter was launched by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001 when, with Bush's approval, he used F-16s against Palestinian towns and villages for the first time. In the same year, the authoritative Jane's Foreign Report disclosed that the Blair government had given Israel the "green light" to attack the West Bank after it was shown Israel's secret designs for a bloodbath. It was typical of New Labor Party's enduring, cringing complicity in Palestine's agony. However, the 2001 Israeli plan, reported Jane's, needed the "trigger" of a suicide bombing which would cause "numerous deaths and injuries [because] the 'revenge' factor is crucial." This would "motivate Israeli soldiers to demolish the Palestinians." What alarmed Sharon and the author of the plan, General Shaul Mofaz, the Israeli Chief of Staff, was a secret agreement between Yasser Arafat and Hamas to ban suicide attacks. On 23 November, 2001, Israeli agents assassinated the Hamas leader, Mahmud Abu Hunud, and got their "trigger"; the suicide attacks resumed in response to his killing.

    Something uncannily similar happened on 5 November last, when Israeli special forces attacked Gaza , killing six people. Once again, they got their propaganda "trigger." A ceasefire initiated and sustained by the Hamas government – which had imprisoned its violators – was shattered by the Israeli attack and homemade rockets were fired into what used to be Palestine before its Arab occupants were "cleansed." On 23 December, Hamas offered to renew the ceasefire, but Israel's charade was such that its all-out assault on Gaza had been planned six months earlier, according to the Israeli daily Ha'aretz.

    Behind this sordid game is the "Dagan Plan," named after General Meir Dagan, who served with Sharon in his bloody invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Now head of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence organization, Dagan is the author of a "solution" that has seen the imprisonment of Palestinians behind a ghetto wall snaking across the West Bank and in Gaza , effectively a concentration camp. The establishment of a quisling government in Ramallah under Mohammed Abbas is Dagan's achievement, together with a hasbara (propaganda) campaign relayed through a mostly supine, if intimidated western media, notably in America, that says Hamas is a terrorist organization devoted to Israel's destruction and to "blame" for the massacres and siege of its own people over two generations, long before its creation.

    "We have never had it so good," said the Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Gideon Meir in 2006. "The hasbara effort is a well-oiled machine." In fact, Hamas's real threat is its example as the Arab world's only democratically elected government, drawing its popularity from its resistance to the Palestinians' oppressor and tormentor. This was demonstrated when Hamas foiled a CIA coup in 2007, an event ordained in the western media as "Hamas's seizure of power." Likewise, Hamas is never described as a government, let alone democratic. Neither is its proposal of a ten-year truce as a historic recognition of the "reality" of Israel and support for a two-state solution with just one condition: that the Israelis obey international law and end their illegal occupation beyond the 1967 borders. As every annual vote in the UN General Assembly demonstrates, 99 per cent of humanity concurs. On 4 January, the president of the General Assembly, Miguel d'Escoto, described the Israeli attack on Gaza as a "monstrosity."

    When the monstrosity is done and the people of Gaza are even more stricken, the Dagan Plan foresees what Sharon called a "1948-style solution" – the destruction of all Palestinian leadership and authority followed by mass expulsions into smaller and smaller "cantonments" and perhaps finally into Jordan. This demolition of institutional and educational life in Gaza is designed to produce, wrote Karma Nabulsi, a Palestinian exile in Britain, "a Hobbesian vision of an anarchic society: truncated, violent, powerless, destroyed, cowed … Look to the Iraq of today: that is what [Sharon] had in store for us, and he has nearly achieved it."

    Dr. Dahlia Wasfi is an American writer on Palestine . She has a Jewish mother and an Iraqi Muslim father. "Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic," she wrote on 31 December. "But I'm not talking about World War Two, Mahmoud Ahmedinijad (the president of Iran ) or Ashkenazi Jews. What I'm referring to is the holocaust we are all witnessing and responsible for in Gaza today and in Palestine over the past 60 years … Since Arabs are Semites , US -Israeli policy doesn't get more anti-Semitic than this." She quoted Rachel Corrie, the young American who went to Palestine to defend Palestinians and was crushed by an Israeli bulldozer. "I am in the midst of a genocide," wrote Corrie, "which I am also indirectly supporting and for which my government is largely responsible."

    Reading the words of both, I am struck by the use of "responsibility." Breaking the lie of silence is not an esoteric abstraction but an urgent responsibility that falls to those with the privilege of a platform. With the BBC cowed, so too is much of journalism, merely allowing vigorous debate within unmovable invisible boundaries, ever fearful of the smear of anti-Semitism. The unreported news, meanwhile, is that the death toll in Gaza is the equivalent of 18,000 dead in Britain. Imagine, if you can.

    Then there are the academics, the deans and teachers and researchers. Why are they silent as they watch a university bombed and hear the Association of University Teachers in Gaza plea for help? Are British universities now, as Terry Eagleton believes, no more than "intellectual Tescos, churning out a commodity known as graduates rather than greengroceries"?

    Then there are the writers. In the dark year of 1939, the Third Writers' Congress was held at Carnegie Hall in New York and the likes of Thomas Mann and Albert Einstein sent messages and spoke up to ensure the lie of silence was broken. By one account, 3,500 jammed the auditorium and a thousand were turned away. Today, this mighty voice of realism and morality is said to be obsolete; the literary review pages affect an ironic hauteur of irrelevance; false symbolism is all. As for the readers, their moral and political imagination is to be pacified, not primed. The anti-Muslim Martin Amis expressed this well in Visiting Mrs. Nabokov: "The dominance of the self is not a flaw, it is an evolutionary characteristic; it is just how things are."

    If that is how things are, we are diminished as a civilized society. For what happens in Gaza is the defining moment of our time, which either grants the impunity of war criminals the immunity of our silence, while we contort our own intellect and morality, or gives us the power to speak out. For the moment I prefer my own memory of Gaza : of the people's courage and resistance and their "luminous humanity," as Karma Nabulsi put it. On my last trip there, I was rewarded with a spectacle of Palestinian flags fluttering in unlikely places. It was dusk and children had done this. No one told them to do it. They made flagpoles out of sticks tied together, and a few of them climbed on to a wall and held the flag between them, some silently, others crying out. They do this every day when they know foreigners are leaving, believing the world will not forget them.

    by John Pilger
     

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