Israeli-Palestinian conflict (31 Viewers)

[Tomice]

Hamas’ funding is largely coming from Iran, which is not really oppressed by Israel (at least not until now). How would that fit in the narrative of oppression? Iranian religions fanatics using Palestinian flesh and blood as tools of their silly proxy war against Israel doesn’t bother you?

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Is that bolded line a justification for having no red lines? If eliminating Hamas means killing every Palestinian in Gaza would you support that in good conscience?

Of course not, it's a fine line already. I don't believe it ever comes to that.

And no, I wouldn't support that and I wont ever think its a realistic possibility. I think we are pretty close to what we can "afford", for lack of better word

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Correct. The world started on Oct 7th.

It didn't. However far you want to go the point stands. Nice try though

 

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[Ronn]

Of course not, it's a fine line already. I don't believe it ever comes to that.

And no, I wouldn't support that and I wont ever think its a realistic possibility. I think we are pretty close to what we can "afford", for lack of better word

But what you can “afford” is really the point here. Israel killed 43k civilians to avenge 1200 people killed in October 7. That’s almost a 36 to 1 ratio. How is that justified? How can you support that?

 

[Mohad]

Hamas’ funding is largely coming from Iran, which is not really oppressed by Israel (at least not until now). How would that fit in the narrative of oppression? Iranian religions fanatics using Palestinian flesh and blood as tools of their silly proxy war against Israel doesn’t bother you?

The oppression has been ongoing for decades, not just recently, and because of that, resistance groups like Hamas and Fatah were formed. The people in Gaza officially chose Hamas to represent them.

As for the Iranian regime and how they are stirring up conflicts in the region, that definitely somthing that bothers me.

 

[AFL_ITALIA]

Shana tova, btw @Tomice

 

[kappa96]

You can sell this artificial separation of Hamas and the Palestinians people to westrenes, not me.

Hamas are not some aliens who came down from mars and took over. They are a product of Palestinian society, culture and education. Not discounting Israeli responsibility as well, we do cary some of the blame for the conditions that allowed this.

But people have responsibility for thier government or leadership actions, same as we Israelis carry responsibility for ours. This effort to separate the two is artificial, obvious and convenient.

On October 7th half of the participants in the massacre were ordinary, non affiliated Palestinian, who murdered, raped and burned women and child. Support for Hamas went up in the west bank after the 7th, this is the uncomfortable reality.

Pretty much. The mental gymnastics are staggering . Just look at the Muslims on this thread .
It's always Israel this , Israel that...., instead of Israeli government or Israeli officials .
But when it comes to Hamas
It's always Hamas this , Hamas that.... Palestinians that support Hamas in the at least 80%, should be left alone, lol, like they didn't elect or represent them.
It's very hypocritical but not surprising .

PS why the f' do we say that Hamas launched 5000 missiles on Israel on 7 of octomber when we should say that " The Palestinians launched 5000 missiles on 7 of octomber ..." cause this is the game they play. This thread stands evidence of this.

 

[Seven]

Im not deflecting, Im mirroring. And even if? wth is wrong with you? How far from reality are you willing to go to justify your stand? Even if lol.
On the off chance? Not even close to reality.

And throwing a token Hamas is guilty as well is not remotely balanced or worse, its morally corrupt.
Not defending Hamas is far from demanding from them what you demand of us, your kind are enabling them to keep going, stroking your sense of mortality, at the expanse of ordinary Palestinians lives.

They are much more guilty no matter how harshly you want to judge Israel's reaction.
They started this and no mental gymnastics will erase that.
They can stop all of this in an instant but did you once asked for that? No, you just want Israel to stop, this will happen again somewhere down the road if we don't ends this. But its not your children.
Where are the rallies in the west for Hamas to disband? Were are your cries for Hamas to disarm, release the hostages and leave gazans alone?

Non of it, you have no dog in this fight, just appeasing your sense of mortality.

I do find it tragic, and I do hurt having civilians killed in mess. Don't need anyone here to believe it. I do.

And with that the only way this ends and people stop dying in gaza is if we achieve our goals, I do believe it with all my heart, this is what allows me to be a part of this, in somewhat good enough conscience.

As long as Hamas are there this will never end. This is why this criticism from westerners doesn't bother me. I see this as a necessary evil, and Im not denying it is, we just don't have the luxury to put amorphic morals over our future.

I believe you care about human life. I do not think of you as a bad person.

Hamas did not 'start' this.

This is a conflict that has been going on since before Hamas existed. When, not if, Israel's genocide is examined, that examination will not be limited to events after October 7. They will take into account the decades of Israeli persecution before as well.

No one has defended Hamas. Not a single soul in the West has deemed it wise or necessary to do so. But Israel and its citizens keep coming back to this as a deflection tactic. Criticising Israel is not the same as justifying Hamas.

You might care about the life of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians. Israel and its government do not. Their actions have time and time again demonstrated as much. I know you refuse to accept this. Israel have bombed a refugee camp in a specific spot they told refugees they'd be safe. And the reasoning is always the same. We 'have' to do this. No, you don't. You want to. The collateral damage of civilians is not something that pains Israel, rather they use it as an instrument of fear. Israel are happy when civilians die. Their actions show as much.

Cut the bullshit.

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[Fab Fragment]

Of course not, it's a fine line already. I don't believe it ever comes to that.

And no, I wouldn't support that and I wont ever think its a realistic possibility. I think we are pretty close to what we can "afford", for lack of better word

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It didn't. However far you want to go the point stands. Nice try though

I can give you a long list of atrocities that you have committed if you would like me to plaster it over here. Please let me know.
And you still have very conveniently evaded my question if its kosher to kill all the people who have lost a loved one because now they don’t need any Iran or Hamas recruit them.
I really think that you guys should wipe out the whole of the middle east, Asia and Africa. That way you'll probably get rid of all the pesky subhumans.

 

[kappa96]

I can give you a long list of atrocities that you have committed if you would like me to plaster it over here. Please let me know.
And you still have very conveniently evaded my question if its kosher to kill all the people who have lost a loved one because now they don’t need any Iran or Hamas recruit them.
I really think that you guys should wipe out the whole of the middle east, Asia and Africa. That way you'll probably get rid of all the pesky subhumans.

I can play this hypocritical game. We are on.
I can give you a long longer list of the atrocities you have committed starting with the invasion of the Bizantine empire.

 

[Fab Fragment]

I can play this hypocritical game. We are on.
I can give you a long longer list of the atrocities you have committed starting with the invasion of the Bizantine empire.

And I'm not going to argue with that. I admit and fully agree that Muslims have had their fair share of absolute monsters as well. And there still are plenty of such shameless animals around.

 

[Ronn]

The oppression has been ongoing for decades, not just recently, and because of that, resistance groups like Hamas and Fatah were formed. The people in Gaza officially chose Hamas to represent them.

As for the Iranian regime and how they are stirring up conflicts in the region, that definitely somthing that bothers me.

I’d argue Hamas in its current form has nothing in common with an anti-oppression force. They’re acting more as an Iranian proxy allowing Iranian rulers to pursue their war against Israel without committing Iranian bodies.

 

[Fab Fragment]

In fact, many Muslims are their own worst enemies. Unfortunate but true.

 

[BayernFan]

And I'm not going to argue with that. I admit and fully agree that Muslims have had their fair share of absolute monsters as well. And there still are plenty of such shameless animals around.

I know this is controversial and saying it to muslims can cause a lot of outrage, but your prophet really was a shit person in so many ways.

Yes it was a different time and different customs, but problem is when muslims in the 21st century see this guy as the epitome of mankind and think he was the perfect human being, when he infact was a pedofile and shit person through and through. Islam has a fundamental problem for thinking such a guy was the best thing to ever grace the Earth.

The big majority of muslims are very kind and friendly people, but islam as a religion needs a total reform to it’s core, its the 21st century after all. Problem is its supposed to be the word of God, so how do you change that, muslims probably wont allow/agree to it.

 

[Tomice]

But what you can “afford” is really the point here. Israel killed 43k civilians to avenge 1200 people killed in October 7. That’s almost a 36 to 1 ratio. How is that justified? How can you support that?

There is an argument there.

How are we arriving at those numbers? What sources? Since when all of them are civilians? What's the teal ratio between combatants and civilians killed?

Building an argument on numbers from one side of the conflict, with proven record of falsifying those is problematic to say the least.

Israel claim a ratio of 3:1. If true its far from unheard of, more so in the context of gaza. Sure it can and should be disputed, but I cant accept as a basis for an argument a blind acceptance of numbers from one side and auto dismissal of the numbers from the other. This is coming again to the point of using "facts" to serve a narrative. And it could be right and im wrong, but its not a foregone conclusion.

I also understand the use of the word avenge but it not purely that. Israel government vow to the public was elimination of hamas and return of the hosteges, this is the course of action they are taking, we can disagree if its the right way but revenge is a part of it not the whole.

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I believe you care about human life. I do not think of you as a bad person.

Hamas did not 'start' this.

This is a conflict that has been going on since before Hamas existed. When, not if, Israel's genocide is examined, that examination will not be limited to events after October 7. They will take into account the decades of Israeli persecution before as well.

No one has defended Hamas. Not a single soul in the West has deemed it wise or necessary to do so. But Israel and its citizens keep coming back to this as a deflection tactic. Criticising Israel is not the same as justifying Hamas.

You might care about the life of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians. Israel and its government do not. Their actions have time and time again demonstrated as much. I know you refuse to accept this. Israel have bombed a refugee camp in a specific spot they told refugees they'd be safe. And the reasoning is always the same. We 'have' to do this. No, you don't. You want to. The collateral damage of civilians is not something that pains Israel, rather they use it as an instrument of fear. Israel are happy when civilians die. Their actions show as much.

Cut the bullshit.

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We are at an impasse I guess, it is what it is.

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I can give you a long list of atrocities that you have committed if you would like me to plaster it over here. Please let me know.
And you still have very conveniently evaded my question if its kosher to kill all the people who have lost a loved one because now they don’t need any Iran or Hamas recruit them.
I really think that you guys should wipe out the whole of the middle east, Asia and Africa. That way you'll probably get rid of all the pesky subhumans.

The question itself show you have no need in an honest conversation. I wont dignify that with an answer

 

[Seven]

There is an argument there.

How are we arriving at those numbers? What sources? Since when all of them are civilians? What's the teal ratio between combatants and civilians killed?

Building an argument on numbers from one side of the conflict, with proven record of falsifying those is problematic to say the least.

Israel claim a ratio of 3:1. If true its far from unheard of, more so in the context of gaza. Sure it can and should be disputed, but I cant accept as a basis for an argument a blind acceptance of numbers from one side and auto dismissal of the numbers from the other. This is coming again to the point of using "facts" to serve a narrative. And it could be right and im wrong, but its not a foregone conclusion.

I also understand the use of the word avenge but it not purely that. Israel government vow to the public was elimination of hamas and return of the hosteges, this is the course of action they are taking, we can disagree if its the right way but revenge is a part of it not the whole.

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We are at an impasse I guess, it is what it is.

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The question itself show you have no need in an honest conversation. I wont dignify that with an answer

Compare your own train of thought with that of your government.

Surely you can see some discrepancies?

Can you say in good faith you believe Netanyahu considers Palestinian lives to have worth?

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[Tomice]

Compare your own train of thought with that of your government.

Surely you can see some discrepancies?

Can you say in good faith you believe Netanyahu considers Palestinian lives to have worth?

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Probably not because he is a sociopath. But I can say that in good faith of the army, in the context of a conflict.
I know how it operates and what type of people are calling the shots, it's not bibi.

Are there war crimes being done? 100%, are civilians being killed in mass just for effect? Absolutely not.

I know for a fact action and airstrikes have been called off due to civilians.

In an army context, as cold as it sounds, civilian lives gets a numerical value, it called NCV, there is a method to calculate the value of a target compared to the expected value of civilian lives lost. Can we disagree what those value should be? Of course, we probably do, but every action is considered trough that prism and passes a threshold.
Does this prove the we value human life as we should? Not at all, but it does say we do assign it some value. Otherwise gaza would be flat by now.

 

[U Picciriddu]

This is bizarre, what a story https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpw5v077nyjo.amp

 

[Seven]

Probably not because he is a sociopath. But I can say that in good faith of the army, in the context of a conflict.
I know how it operates and what type of people are calling the shots, it's not bibi.

Are there war crimes being done? 100%, are civilians being killed in mass just for effect? Absolutely not.

I know for a fact action and airstrikes have been called off due to civilians.

In an army context, as cold as it sounds, civilian lives gets a numerical value, it called NCV, there is a method to calculate the value of a target compared to the expected value of civilian lives lost. Can we disagree what those value should be? Of course, we probably do, but every action is considered trough that prism and passes a threshold.
Does this prove the we value human life as we should? Not at all, but it does say we do assign it some value. Otherwise gaza would be flat by now.

Well, I do not think of Israeli citizens and soldiers as any worse or any better than most people around the world.

I'm glad you highlight that Israeli soldiers do value human life and that within the army actions that would cause unnecessary loss of life do not go unopposed.

But if I'm honest, I expected that.

Very few people are so devoid of empathy that they slaughter without remorse.

My gripe is much more with the government of Israel. Apart from their decisions, there is also their discourse. They escalate this war every chance they get. The way they speak of Palestinians does very much imply they see them as subhuman.

And the longer this goes on, the more their discourse seeps into the mind of otherwise normal people.

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[Tomice]

Well, I do not think of Israeli citizens and soldiers as any worse or any better than most people around the world.

I'm glad you highlight that Israeli soldiers do value human life and that within the army actions that would cause unnecessary loss of life do not go unopposed.

But if I'm honest, I expected that.

Very few people are so devoid of empathy that they slaughter without remorse.

My gripe is much more with the government of Israel. Apart from their decisions, there is also their discourse. They escalate this war every chance they get. The way they speak of Palestinians does very much imply they see them as subhuman.

And the longer this goes on, the more their discourse seeps into the mind of otherwise normal people.

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On this we are in complete agreement

 

[Mohad]

I’d argue Hamas in its current form has nothing in common with an anti-oppression force. They’re acting more as an Iranian proxy allowing Iranian rulers to pursue their war against Israel without committing Iranian bodies.

No disagreement here.

Hamas are actually fools for thinking that siding with the Iranian rulers will benefit them.

 

[Bjerknes]

Probably not because he is a sociopath. But I can say that in good faith of the army, in the context of a conflict.
I know how it operates and what type of people are calling the shots, it's not bibi.

Are there war crimes being done? 100%, are civilians being killed in mass just for effect? Absolutely not.

I know for a fact action and airstrikes have been called off due to civilians.

In an army context, as cold as it sounds, civilian lives gets a numerical value, it called NCV, there is a method to calculate the value of a target compared to the expected value of civilian lives lost. Can we disagree what those value should be? Of course, we probably do, but every action is considered trough that prism and passes a threshold.
Does this prove the we value human life as we should? Not at all, but it does say we do assign it some value. Otherwise gaza would be flat by now.

Then how do you explain the exploding devices all over the place? They could have exploded in a busy market or someone's apartment where it was only that Hezbollah dunce amongst all sorts of Lebanese civilians.

And another question is - if IDF/Mossad is so amazing where they know where every single terrorist is at any given second, then how did hundreds of Hamas cross into IDF territory to conduct the raid last October?

You guys like to act like you make a lot of sense. But then you fucking dont.