Israeli-Palestinian conflict (81 Viewers)

Is Hamas a Terrorist Organization?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should there be a Jewish nation SOMEWHERE in the world?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Should Israel be a country located in the region it is right now?

  • Yes

  • No


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BlanquiNegro

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2006
949
Yeah, it's all a conspiracy. The Jews pay Tom Cruise to make them look better.
Hellooooooooooooooo , any body home

They don't need to
20th Century Fox - William Fox - Jew

MGM " Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer" "The Samuel Goldwyn Company" - Samuel Goldwyn - Jew

Metro - Lewis Mayer - Jew

Paramount - W. W. Hodkinson - Jew

Warner Bros. Entertainment - Harry+Albert+Sam+Jack - Jews


Tell me if you want more

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,4676183.column
 

Buy on AliExpress.com

Martin

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2000
56,913
I KID YOU NOT, There is no reason to sweeten the comparisons anymore, he has said ALOT of heinous and disgusting BS rhetoric, but THIS, I can 100% say this guy is as BAD as the Nazi propogandists I was so appalled by seeing in historical vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJxX...ressnetwork.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=721
Well it's nothing new. They say that since the trists are hiding among civilians, it's Hamas's doing that the civilians got killed. Standard war rhetoric.

Civilians hiding guerillas? Burn three villages. It's been done to death.
 

Osman

Koul Khara!
Aug 30, 2002
61,515
"Large part of the civilian casualty is from the hands of Hamas". Really sickening stuff, to have the nerve to say that. You slaughter their families, and then say they killed them themselves?
 
OP

ReBeL

The Jackal
Jan 14, 2005
22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #3,487
    Israel's Lies
    by Henry Siegman


    Western governments and most of the Western media have accepted a number of Israeli claims justifying the military assault on Gaza: that Hamas consistently violated the six-month truce that Israel observed and then refused to extend it; that Israel therefore had no choice but to destroy Hamas’s capacity to launch missiles into Israeli towns; that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, part of a global jihadi network; and that Israel has acted not only in its own defense but on behalf of an international struggle by Western democracies against this network.

    I am not aware of a single major American newspaper, radio station or TV channel whose coverage of the assault on Gaza questions this version of events. Criticism of Israel’s actions, if any (and there has been none from the Bush administration), has focused instead on whether the IDF’s carnage is proportional to the threat it sought to counter, and whether it is taking adequate measures to prevent civilian casualties.

    Middle East peacemaking has been smothered in deceptive euphemisms, so let me state bluntly that each of these claims is a lie. Israel, not Hamas, violated the truce: Hamas undertook to stop firing rockets into Israel; in return, Israel was to ease its throttlehold on Gaza. In fact, during the truce, it tightened it further. This was confirmed not only by every neutral international observer and NGO on the scene but by Brigadier General (Res.) Shmuel Zakai, a former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division. In an interview in Ha’aretz on 22 December, he accused Israel’s government of having made a ‘central error’ during the tahdiyeh, the six-month period of relative truce, by failing ‘to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians of the Strip . . . When you create a tahdiyeh, and the economic pressure on the Strip continues,’ General Zakai said, ‘it is obvious that Hamas will try to reach an improved tahdiyeh, and that their way to achieve this is resumed Qassam fire . . . You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they’re in, and expect that Hamas will just sit around and do nothing.’

    The truce, which began in June last year and was due for renewal in December, required both parties to refrain from violent action against the other. Hamas had to cease its rocket assaults and prevent the firing of rockets by other groups such as Islamic Jihad (even Israel’s intelligence agencies acknowledged this had been implemented with surprising effectiveness), and Israel had to put a stop to its targeted assassinations and military incursions. This understanding was seriously violated on 4 November, when the IDF entered Gaza and killed six members of Hamas. Hamas responded by launching Qassam rockets and Grad missiles. Even so, it offered to extend the truce, but only on condition that Israel ended its blockade. Israel refused. It could have met its obligation to protect its citizens by agreeing to ease the blockade, but it didn’t even try. It cannot be said that Israel launched its assault to protect its citizens from rockets. It did so to protect its right to continue the strangulation of Gaza’s population.

    Everyone seems to have forgotten that Hamas declared an end to suicide bombings and rocket fire when it decided to join the Palestinian political process, and largely stuck to it for more than a year. Bush publicly welcomed that decision, citing it as an example of the success of his campaign for democracy in the Middle East. (He had no other success to point to.) When Hamas unexpectedly won the election, Israel and the US immediately sought to delegitimise the result and embraced Mahmoud Abbas, the head of Fatah, who until then had been dismissed by Israel’s leaders as a ‘plucked chicken’. They armed and trained his security forces to overthrow Hamas; and when Hamas – brutally, to be sure – pre-empted this violent attempt to reverse the result of the first honest democratic election in the modern Middle East, Israel and the Bush administration imposed the blockade.

    Israel seeks to counter these indisputable facts by maintaining that in withdrawing Israeli settlements from Gaza in 2005, Ariel Sharon gave Hamas the chance to set out on the path to statehood, a chance it refused to take; instead, it transformed Gaza into a launching-pad for firing missiles at Israel’s civilian population. The charge is a lie twice over. First, for all its failings, Hamas brought to Gaza a level of law and order unknown in recent years, and did so without the large sums of money that donors showered on the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority. It eliminated the violent gangs and warlords who terrorised Gaza under Fatah’s rule. Non-observant Muslims, Christians and other minorities have more religious freedom under Hamas rule than they would have in Saudi Arabia, for example, or under many other Arab regimes.

    The greater lie is that Sharon’s withdrawal from Gaza was intended as a prelude to further withdrawals and a peace agreement. This is how Sharon’s senior adviser Dov Weisglass, who was also his chief negotiator with the Americans, described the withdrawal from Gaza, in an interview with Ha’aretz in August 2004:

    What I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements [i.e. the major settlement blocks on the West Bank] would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns . . . The significance [of the agreement with the US] is the freezing of the political process. And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion about the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package that is called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed from our agenda indefinitely. And all this with [President Bush’s] authority and permission . . . and the ratification of both houses of Congress.

    Do the Israelis and Americans think that Palestinians don’t read the Israeli papers, or that when they saw what was happening on the West Bank they couldn’t figure out for themselves what Sharon was up to?

    Israel’s government would like the world to believe that Hamas launched its Qassam rockets because that is what terrorists do and Hamas is a generic terrorist group. In fact, Hamas is no more a ‘terror organisation’ (Israel’s preferred term) than the Zionist movement was during its struggle for a Jewish homeland. In the late 1930s and 1940s, parties within the Zionist movement resorted to terrorist activities for strategic reasons. According to Benny Morris, it was the Irgun that first targeted civilians. He writes in Righteous Victims that an upsurge of Arab terrorism in 1937 ‘triggered a wave of Irgun bombings against Arab crowds and buses, introducing a new dimension to the conflict’. He also documents atrocities committed during the 1948-49 war by the IDF, admitting in a 2004 interview, published in Ha’aretz, that material released by Israel’s Ministry of Defence showed that ‘there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought . . . In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them, and destroy the villages themselves.’ In a number of Palestinian villages and towns the IDF carried out organised executions of civilians. Asked by Ha’aretz whether he condemned the ethnic cleansing, Morris replied that he did not:

    A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on.

    In other words, when Jews target and kill innocent civilians to advance their national struggle, they are patriots. When their adversaries do so, they are terrorists.

    It is too easy to describe Hamas simply as a ‘terror organisation’. It is a religious nationalist movement that resorts to terrorism, as the Zionist movement did during its struggle for statehood, in the mistaken belief that it is the only way to end an oppressive occupation and bring about a Palestinian state. While Hamas’s ideology formally calls for that state to be established on the ruins of the state of Israel, this doesn’t determine Hamas’s actual policies today any more than the same declaration in the PLO charter determined Fatah’s actions.

    These are not the conclusions of an apologist for Hamas but the opinions of the former head of Mossad and Sharon’s national security adviser, Ephraim Halevy. The Hamas leadership has undergone a change ‘right under our very noses’, Halevy wrote recently in Yedioth Ahronoth, by recognising that ‘its ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future.’ It is now ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state within the temporary borders of 1967. Halevy noted that while Hamas has not said how ‘temporary’ those borders would be, ‘they know that the moment a Palestinian state is established with their co-operation, they will be obligated to change the rules of the game: they will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original ideological goals.’ In an earlier article, Halevy also pointed out the absurdity of linking Hamas to al-Qaida.

    In the eyes of al-Qaida, the members of Hamas are perceived as heretics due to their stated desire to participate, even indirectly, in processes of any understandings or agreements with Israel. [The Hamas political bureau chief, Khaled] Mashal’s declaration diametrically contradicts al-Qaida’s approach, and provides Israel with an opportunity, perhaps a historic one, to leverage it for the better.

    Why then are Israel’s leaders so determined to destroy Hamas? Because they believe that its leadership, unlike that of Fatah, cannot be intimidated into accepting a peace accord that establishes a Palestinian ‘state’ made up of territorially disconnected entities over which Israel would be able to retain permanent control. Control of the West Bank has been the unwavering objective of Israel’s military, intelligence and political elites since the end of the Six-Day War.[*] They believe that Hamas would not permit such a cantonisation of Palestinian territory, no matter how long the occupation continues. They may be wrong about Abbas and his superannuated cohorts, but they are entirely right about Hamas.

    Middle East observers wonder whether Israel’s assault on Hamas will succeed in destroying the organisation or expelling it from Gaza. This is an irrelevant question. If Israel plans to keep control over any future Palestinian entity, it will never find a Palestinian partner, and even if it succeeds in dismantling Hamas, the movement will in time be replaced by a far more radical Palestinian opposition.

    If Barack Obama picks a seasoned Middle East envoy who clings to the idea that outsiders should not present their own proposals for a just and sustainable peace agreement, much less press the parties to accept it, but instead leave them to work out their differences, he will assure a future Palestinian resistance far more extreme than Hamas – one likely to be allied with al-Qaida. For the US, Europe and most of the rest of the world, this would be the worst possible outcome. Perhaps some Israelis, including the settler leadership, believe it would serve their purposes, since it would provide the government with a compelling pretext to hold on to all of Palestine. But this is a delusion that would bring about the end of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.

    Anthony Cordesman, one of the most reliable military analysts of the Middle East, and a friend of Israel, argued in a 9 January report for the Center for Strategic and International Studies that the tactical advantages of continuing the operation in Gaza were outweighed by the strategic cost – and were probably no greater than any gains Israel may have made early in the war in selective strikes on key Hamas facilities. ‘Has Israel somehow blundered into a steadily escalating war without a clear strategic goal, or at least one it can credibly achieve?’ he asks. ‘Will Israel end in empowering an enemy in political terms that it defeated in tactical terms? Will Israel’s actions seriously damage the US position in the region, any hope of peace, as well as moderate Arab regimes and voices in the process? To be blunt, the answer so far seems to be yes.’ Cordesman concludes that ‘any leader can take a tough stand and claim that tactical gains are a meaningful victory. If this is all that Olmert, Livni and Barak have for an answer, then they have disgraced themselves and damaged their country and their friends.’
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    I don't understand why you're so surprised. War is the ultimate departure from civility. If they are willing to kill people, why wouldn't they be dishonest about it? Talk is cheap, as the saying goes.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    Non-observant Muslims, Christians and other minorities have more religious freedom under Hamas rule than they would have in Saudi Arabia, for example, or under many other Arab regimes.
    It's interesting that you highlighted this, because I see it not as an endorsement of Hamas, but as an indictment of those "other Arab regimes".

    Being "less bad" is better than being bad, but in itself not a tremendous achievement.
     
    OP

    ReBeL

    The Jackal
    Jan 14, 2005
    22,871
  • Thread Starter
  • Thread Starter #3,490
    It's interesting that you highlighted this, because I see it not as an endorsement of Hamas, but as an indictment of those "other Arab regimes".

    Being "less bad" is better than being bad, but in itself not a tremendous achievement.
    Well, comparing Hamas to Saudi regime just shows how USA and The European Union are just hypocrites who deal with Saudi corrupt regime and not deal with Hamas although Hamas respects other religions and is dealt with as an Islamic party that wants to kill anybody that is not Muslim.
     

    CheSchifo!

    Senior Member
    Jan 11, 2009
    642
    Well, comparing Hamas to Saudi regime just shows how USA and The European Union are just hypocrites who deal with Saudi corrupt regime and not deal with Hamas although Hamas respects other religions and is dealt with as an Islamic party that wants to kill anybody that is not Muslim.
    The European Union cares about the European Union. Hamas has very little to offer to the European Union. In fact, Hamas has nothing to offer.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    Well, comparing Hamas to Saudi regime just shows how USA and The European Union are just hypocrites who deal with Saudi corrupt regime and not deal with Hamas although Hamas respects other religions and is dealt with as an Islamic party that wants to kill anybody that is not Muslim.
    Yes, but why repeat this ad infinitum? Have you not noticed that politics does not follow ethical rules? People only do what suits them best, and dealing with the Saudis is not in "our" interest, they have way too much power over "us" right now. Maybe if one day "we" stop depending on oil "we'll" think about what to do with them.

    Survival of the fittest, my friend.
     

    CheSchifo!

    Senior Member
    Jan 11, 2009
    642
    Well it's nothing new. They say that since the trists are hiding among civilians, it's Hamas's doing that the civilians got killed. Standard war rhetoric.

    Civilians hiding guerillas? Burn three villages. It's been done to death.
    Even if Hamas would use civilians as a shield, which to a certain extent they do, Israel would still be blamed in international humanitarian law. They might use the civilians in a wrong way, but it's still Israel that shoots them.
     

    Martin

    Senior Member
    Dec 31, 2000
    56,913
    Even if Hamas would use civilians as a shield, which to a certain extent they do, Israel would still be blamed in international humanitarian law. They might use the civilians in a wrong way, but it's still Israel that shoots them.
    Exactly, it's like that scene in every single action movie, where the bad guy is finally cornered and he's using a hostage to shield himself. Israel says "shoot them both".

    And you mofo, I had no idea who you are for like a day. :p
     

    CheSchifo!

    Senior Member
    Jan 11, 2009
    642
    Yes, but why repeat this ad infinitum? Have you not noticed that politics does not follow ethical rules? People only do what suits them best, and dealing with the Saudis is not in "our" interest, they have way too much power over "us" right now. Maybe if one day "we" stop depending on oil "we'll" think about what to do with them.

    Survival of the fittest, my friend.
    ReBeL doesn't understand the first thing about international politics. He wants us to storm into some chaotic war scene and tear everything apart without any possible substantial advantage for us, but a hell of a lot of problems.
     

    CheSchifo!

    Senior Member
    Jan 11, 2009
    642
    Yes, but why repeat this ad infinitum? Have you not noticed that politics does not follow ethical rules? People only do what suits them best, and dealing with the Saudis is not in "our" interest, they have way too much power over "us" right now. Maybe if one day "we" stop depending on oil "we'll" think about what to do with them.

    Survival of the fittest, my friend.
    That's why it's quite possible that in 50 years or so the Palestinians will simply be gone. Unfortunately enough.
     

    Osman

    Koul Khara!
    Aug 30, 2002
    61,515
    Exactly, it's like that scene in every single action movie, where the bad guy is finally cornered and he's using a hostage to shield himself. Israel says "shoot them both".

    And you mofo, I had no idea who you are for like a day. :p
    But in this case, Israel is holding them hostage AND killing them.
     

    CheSchifo!

    Senior Member
    Jan 11, 2009
    642
    Palestine, maybe, not Palestinians. A nationality group doesn't just perish without some catastrophic calamity.
    Depends on what criteria you set and how you define a nationality group. If land for example would be a criterion..

    But in this case, Israel is holding them hostage AND killing them.
    No. You did not understand the analogy. Try again.
     

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