Is this team stronger than last year (1 Viewer)

[denco]

This is not boxing, this is football, why should guts and force and all that count more in football, its about the talent baby, football is an easy game its just tactical b/s that makes it more complicated than it should be, and why should this year's cl count more than previous seasons, not that i think we are any better than last seasons.

Talking about guts and all that, no one has that more than America but it didint help in the wc now did it, the talented ones won it in the end

 

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[BigIzz]

I think you are underestamating the importance of intangibles. Give me a team that wants to win, that would die for each other, that would do anything it takes ahead of a bunch of rich talented pretty boys.

 

[denco]

So why on earth have the biggest prizes in football gone to the "pretty boys", France, Real Madrid and Brazil.

If we were more talented then all this talk will not arise but because we don't have the players, then you guys are coming up with the excuses that we are the poor guys of football, ppl like dp, nedved, buffon,davids etc do not make in a week what i dont get in 2 years.
Plz lets buy decent talented players, too many fighters not enough lovers

 

[Desmond]

++ [ originally posted by FaNaTiC ] ++


it looks you didnt see him play this pre-season.

what i meant was they will probably be wishing we had good ol' pessotto and zamby,surely they are better players.

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
So why on earth have the biggest prizes in football gone to the "pretty boys", France, Real Madrid and Brazil.

If we were more talented then all this talk will not arise but because we don't have the players, then you guys are coming up with the excuses that we are the poor guys of football, ppl like dp, nedved, buffon,davids etc do not make in a week what i dont get in 2 years.
Plz lets buy decent talented players, too many fighters not enough lovers

We are looking at football from two sides of a mirror. You say that talent is what seperates the men from the boys, but we say talent is nothing without grit. We're both really saying the same thing: "One part of being a good football team counts more than another." Maybe this is true maybe it isn't. Maybe winning has nothing to do with talent or grit, maybe it is something else completely. Who knows?

 

[denco]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


We are looking at football from two sides of a mirror. You say that talent is what seperates the men from the boys, but we say talent is nothing without grit. We're both really saying the same thing: "One part of being a good football team counts more than another." Maybe this is true maybe it isn't. Maybe winning has nothing to do with talent or grit, maybe it is something else completely. Who knows?

But its a fallacy to say that talented players don't have grit as i have seen Barcelona a few times and noone clears out corner kicks more than Rivaldo, in juve not a lot of ppl work harder than Dp, i feel you can build grit into talented player but you can never build talent into gritty players. Real madrid players work very hard, i am yet to see a striker who works harder than Raul, roberto Carlos is up and down the flanks like no man's biz, even Zz and Figo always track back to help their defence.

The problem is when a talented player is seen not to work hard, thats why Totti gets a lot of stick because he does not seem to work hard but believe me the hardest workers are usually the most talented. Who is more talented Davids or Zambrotta or Tacchinardi, its davids and he works harder and has more grit than them 2. Look at Brazil, I mean Cafu is 32 for heaven sakes and imo ran more miles than anyother player, Lucio and Edmilson were up and down taking the ball from defence to attack, and the rest of them were working hard but they still have talent.

There is no team who wins anything with just talent, these talented players work their socks off, its just that when you play football without skills its obvious that you are forcing and you compensate for lack of skills by being either very aggressive ala Gattusso or hard workers like most of our team

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
But its a fallacy to say that talented players don't have grit as i have seen Barcelona a few times and noone clears out corner kicks more than Rivaldo, in juve not a lot of ppl work harder than Dp, i feel you can build grit into talented player but you can never build talent into gritty players. Real madrid players work very hard, i am yet to see a striker who works harder than Raul, roberto Carlos is up and down the flanks like no man's biz, even Zz and Figo always track back to help their defence.

Right, I'm not saying that you can't have grit with talent, and I never said that you can't have grit with talent. I said that grit is more important than talent.

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
The problem is when a talented player is seen not to work hard, thats why Totti gets a lot of stick because he does not seem to work hard but believe me the hardest workers are usually the most talented. Who is more talented Davids or Zambrotta or Tacchinardi, its davids and he works harder and has more grit than them 2. Look at Brazil, I mean Cafu is 32 for heaven sakes and imo ran more miles than anyother player, Lucio and Edmilson were up and down taking the ball from defence to attack, and the rest of them were working hard but they still have talent.

Again, Talent and grit go together. What I am saying is that if you give me a two teams: One with more grit than talent, and one with more talent than grit, and I'll bet you that the one with grit wins more than the one with talent.

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
There is no team who wins anything with just talent, these talented players work their socks off, its just that when you play football without skills its obvious that you are forcing and you compensate for lack of skills by being either very aggressive ala Gattusso or hard workers like most of our team

But that doesn't make your team any worse for it.

 

[denco]

All the teams that have dominated any championship are more often than not filled with talented players like Real Madrid of the 50s, 80s and now, Barcelona of Cruyff era, Milan of the 80s, Ajax of the 90s, Manchester united of the 90s and Juve of the late 90s, i do not remember too many gritty teams winning continously thats why in 20 years or so, German teams have won the cl just twice

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
All the teams that have dominated any championship are more often than not filled with talented players like Real Madrid of the 50s, 80s and now, Barcelona of Cruyff era, Milan of the 80s, Ajax of the 90s, Manchester united of the 90s and Juve of the late 90s, i do not remember too many gritty teams winning continously thats why in 20 years or so, German teams have won the cl just twice

Let it go mate. You keep saying that this team won on talent and this team won on talent, but that doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is here and now. Today and tommorow, grit is the difference between winning and losing. In the top flights, there is not so much gap in talent as there used to be.

 

[BigIzz]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
All the teams that have dominated any championship are more often than not filled with talented players like Real Madrid of the 50s, 80s and now, Barcelona of Cruyff era, Milan of the 80s, Ajax of the 90s, Manchester united of the 90s and Juve of the late 90s, i do not remember too many gritty teams winning continously thats why in 20 years or so, German teams have won the cl just twice

Teams like that come along once every decade or so. ANd you can't build a team like that...its like catching lighting in a bottle. A lot of times, it won't work out the way you plan it. Beleive me, Inter has been spending a fortune and signing star after star for years now and they haven't achieved near what they thought they would.

Lets not go crazy about Real Madrid here either. They may have won in Europe, but they didn't win thier league. Sure they were a very good team last year but they didn't do anything that amazing now, espically if you consider the expectations placed upon them.

 

[denco]

++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


Let it go mate. You keep saying that this team won on talent and this team won on talent, but that doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is here and now. Today and tommorow, grit is the difference between winning and losing. In the top flights, there is not so much gap in talent as there used to be.

Well it does matter to me, we will just have to agree to disagree as i do like my teams to show great skill and your opinion about grit being difference between winning and losing doesn't wash with me.

Isn't it ironic that one of your fave players has absolutely no back bone whatsoever but relies and his team relies on his great skills to win the league, speaking of cos about Bergkamp

 

[denco]

++ [ originally posted by BigIzz ] ++


Teams like that come along once every decade or so. ANd you can't build a team like that...its like catching lighting in a bottle. A lot of times, it won't work out the way you plan it. Beleive me, Inter has been spending a fortune and signing star after star for years now and they haven't achieved near what they thought they would.

Lets not go crazy about Real Madrid here either. They may have won in Europe, but they didn't win thier league. Sure they were a very good team last year but they didn't do anything that amazing now, espically if you consider the expectations placed upon them.

Inter have never bought with any thought process, just by so called stars and the don't know how to fit them in, its not that difficult to build a super team, its players who come once a decade, do u think if we got nedved, left zz here with inzaghi, not bought buffon and thuram, we won't have been on our way to being a super team?

You don't have to spend millions on a goal keeper and defender, what will be so wrong to have continued with Vds and Ferrara has shown he can still go on, buy a decent defender not necessarily world class or very expensive as long as they are solid that will do., have Nedved on the left, zz as playmaker and you rotate your fwd line with Salas,Dp,Trez and Inzaghi

As for Real Madrid they have won the Cl 3 times in 5 years, won their championship 3 times or more in that period, won the intercontinetal cup and play great football, well i do not ask for more than that. Not winning their league is not a disaster as they won Cl to compensate, you cannot win everything in sight all the time as no team has actually done so

 

[BigIzz]

Well then in that case, we won our league so not winning the CL isn't a disaster.

 

[Dj Juve]

it'll still be dissapointing if we fail like the last few seasons....

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Isn't it ironic that one of your fave players has absolutely no back bone whatsoever but relies and his team relies on his great skills to win the league, speaking of cos about Bergkamp

I can't belive that you think that Bergkamp has no grit. I can't imagine where you are getting that. :irritate:

 

[Slagathor]

Where on earth did you get that idea, denco??

 

[denco]

Let's see Bergkamp whom i think should be the best player ever to grace the premeirship continues to disappoint me with phantom injuries, like painful toe, painful toe-nai, last sunday he was kicked at the back of his knee and he went off straight away.

In 1999 semi final Arsenal vs Man united, semi final, 1 minute to go and arsenal are awarded a penalty, Bergkamp steps up, Scneichel saves it and Bergkamp never plays a penalty for Arsenal again, allowing less skilled ppl like Thierry Henry to be taking every free kick and penalty.

!998 wc Bergkamp scores the goal of the tournament against Argentina, the whole world bills Brazil v Holland, Bergkamp against Ronaldo, and what does Dennis do , he completely bottles it and gives his most inept display bu doing absolutely nothing for the entire duration.

Players like Deboer and Dp miss penalties but at least they have the bottle to take one, Bergkamp does not.

Every time i see Holland play, i see players like Seedorf taking free kicks and corner kicks badly and Bergkamp is not man enough to take it by the scruff of the neck and play

Ask any Arsenal fan, they will tell you he is a wonderful player, the best probably in their history and they are right but i bet you none of them will tell you that they will bring Bergkamp along for a war if their life depends on it.

Spartacus is right Bergkamp and I was wrong Bergkamp flopped in Italy because he is not tough enough

 

[Dj Juve]

regardless if he's a chicken or not, i still wouldnt mind him on my team at all

 

[denco]

++ [ originally posted by [DJ Juve] ] ++
regardless if he's a chicken or not, i still wouldnt mind him on my team at all

We are not questioning his ability just his toughness and you have to read most of the posts to understand what we are refering to

 

[Ian]

++ [ originally posted by denco ] ++
Let's see Bergkamp whom i think should be the best player ever to grace the premeirship continues to disappoint me with phantom injuries, like painful toe, painful toe-nai, last sunday he was kicked at the back of his knee and he went off straight away.

In 1999 semi final Arsenal vs Man united, semi final, 1 minute to go and arsenal are awarded a penalty, Bergkamp steps up, Scneichel saves it and Bergkamp never plays a penalty for Arsenal again, allowing less skilled ppl like Thierry Henry to be taking every free kick and penalty.

!998 wc Bergkamp scores the goal of the tournament against Argentina, the whole world bills Brazil v Holland, Bergkamp against Ronaldo, and what does Dennis do , he completely bottles it and gives his most inept display bu doing absolutely nothing for the entire duration.

Players like Deboer and Dp miss penalties but at least they have the bottle to take one, Bergkamp does not.

Every time i see Holland play, i see players like Seedorf taking free kicks and corner kicks badly and Bergkamp is not man enough to take it by the scruff of the neck and play

Ask any Arsenal fan, they will tell you he is a wonderful player, the best probably in their history and they are right but i bet you none of them will tell you that they will bring Bergkamp along for a war if their life depends on it.

Spartacus is right Bergkamp and I was wrong Bergkamp flopped in Italy because he is not tough enough

You're wrong. Bergkamp has had a lot of minor injuries, but who are you to claim that they aren't real?

Maybe he doesn't take penalties for Arsenal any more because Henry is their established goal scorer, and he gets the preference because of that.

And Bergkamp doesn't take free kicks for Holland because he doesn't play for the national team any more. When he did, he often did not take them because he is a lethal finisher, and the Dutch do not usually take shots directly from free kicks, so they need good finishers to be on the end of them.

I am an Arsenal fan, and I will tell you that the "Ice Man" is someone I would trust to peform under pressure no matter what.

Your example about the world cup is flawed. He didn't have good match because the team was stuctured throughout the tournament so that they relied upon him to both create and score goals. This wore him out and he had very little left.

Overall, I think that calling almost any professional football player spineless is a hard thing to do, unless you yourself have done it. I don't mean to flaunt this, or anything, but it gives me a different perspective. I player professional ball for a few years, and although it wasn't near the top level, it is a different world when you are playing for money. Different things go on, and the game is just different. Bergkamp is tough in a lot of ways, and furhtermore, he is one of the most skilled players of all time.