India Rocks (3 Viewers)

[Zé Tahir]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++
I dont see how she's done that. She still practices Ramzan, and she still goes to the mosque.

Ze, if you think this way, I cant even imagine what goes on in the head of those assholes that are part of the Toiba or Inquilabi sects.

so I'm an extremist because I'm religious? I suggest you study up on Islam. Yes she probably does fast and all those tthings, and I'm not saying she's not muslim, because no muslims is allowed to say that another muslim is not muslim. But by going out there and wearing short skirts, she is going against the concept of "purdah" in islam. In the Qur'an, God has transcribed purdah for all women. Though he has also said that it's between the Him and the person whether she choses to or not to practive purdah. Same goes for everything else, like praying, etc. So I'm against those "mullah's" going public and making statements about thhis matter, as its none of their business. Its between her and God.

Let me ask you something. If a muslim girl is a talented volleyball player, should she be go out and play beach volleyball? It's not her fault that the rules say she has to wear a bikini, is it?

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[baggio]

Do you realise, the more rigid rules are toward women in society, the more they're going to want to break free? Don't you think, given today's times, those who wear Bukhas are hypocrites? What I mean is, there are ladies who wear Burkhas to my uncle's office for example, but once they're in the office they disrobe them and roam about freely in their regular clothes. What's the need to wear it in the first place, if you're just doing it for approval? It obviously means for a better part, these women do not believe in the system of the 'purdah'. And why should they? Isnt it important for them to go out there and live their dreams. Your views do seem rigid because on one hand you condemn Sania for choosing her career over religion, on the other you dont agree with what one mullah says about the other. I think that's a little unfair. The volleyball example is a little misleading because, I think any woman from the subcontinent would be uncomfortable with the idea. But look at your women's cricket team. Our Indian female team actually had to travel to Pakistan and play in a sealed off stadium so that men would'nt see the Pakistani women play, unless they were husbands or brothers. If the 'purdah' must be practiced, thats fine, but wont it be practiced more whole heartedly when praying, during ramzan or during a daily trip to the mosque? I think this only affects the women more than anyone else. It's very important women get a chance to progress and do well for themselves in these times.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Sorry to hear about this.

 

[Zé Tahir]

Baggio, have you ever studied up on the concept of Purdah? Or do you take everything media and the taliban have made it out to be?

Islam is going through it's "middle-ages" and a lot of things are being distorted and mis-used for various reasons. The greatest enemies are the "mullah's" who create hatred and mislead people for their own advantage.

Your views do seem rigid because on one hand you condemn Sania for choosing her career over religion, on the other you dont agree with what one mullah says about the other

I never said what one mullah says about the other. I said that mullahs speak out publicly against Sania, which is wrong, because it's none of their business. Purdah is a matter between the God and the woman.

here are ladies who wear Burkhas to my uncle's office for example, but once they're in the office they disrobe them and roam about freely in their regular clothes.

Based on what you've said here, I take it, your opinon on purdah is that it's oppressing. Let me suggest to you, which I do to everyone, that this day an age, when you want to study up on Islam, go to the main source rather than looking at Govt's or people like Osama.

There could be several reasons why these women chose to take off their purdah. One, their line of work might make it hard for them to have purdah, in which case it's allowed. There are female doctors/nurses who don't wear purdah b/c of their line of work, which is allowed. There's also the rule "keth ki awrat ka purdah maaf hai". The other reason could be that they just don't believe in the concept of purdah, or the last one, which is most likely, that they are forced to do so which makes them feel like they are forced to do so rather than their own choice. I have several Irani friends whose families left Islam b/c of the gov't their. The 1st thing that they wanted to do when they left Iran was to leave their religion, for which they cannot be blamed.

The volleyball example is a little misleading because, I think any woman from the subcontinent would be uncomfortable with the idea.

Tell me, just a few years back, wasn't a "french kiss" a big NO NO in Bollywood/India? Is it today? No! Why not? I wouldn't be suprised if there was an Indian beach volleyball team.


Lastly, I think the concept you have of purdah is greatly biased. The purdah is not there to chain women. My mother works, and she follows purdah; does she not move about "freely"? Purdah does not take away freedom, rather it gives it. I suggest you read up on the concept of purdah, I would be happy to give you some links.

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by Zé Tahir ] ++
Baggio, have you ever studied up on the concept of Purdah? Or do you take everything media and the taliban have made it out to be?

Islam is going through it's "middle-ages" and a lot of things are being distorted and mis-used for various reasons. The greatest enemies are the "mullah's" who create hatred and mislead people for their own advantage.

Based on what you've said here, I take it, your opinon on purdah is that it's oppressing. Let me suggest to you, which I do to everyone, that this day an age, when you want to study up on Islam, go to the main source rather than looking at Govt's or people like Osama.

Obviously, I'm not a student of Islam, so my knowledge therein stems from the documentaries that I may have watched or news related articles that I would've read. And I'm sure despite you're knowledge, what I may have seen or read does not necessarily curb the truth in its entirety. Surely, there is some basis of such articles.

++ [ originally posted by Zé Tahir ] ++
There could be several reasons why these women chose to take off their purdah. One, their line of work might make it hard for them to have purdah, in which case it's allowed. There are female doctors/nurses who don't wear purdah b/c of their line of work, which is allowed. There's also the rule "keth ki awrat ka purdah maaf hai". The other reason could be that they just don't believe in the concept of purdah, or the last one, which is most likely, that they are forced to do so which makes them feel like they are forced to do so rather than their own choice. I have several Irani friends whose families left Islam b/c of the gov't their. The 1st thing that they wanted to do when they left Iran was to leave their religion, for which they cannot be blamed.

I dont get it. Some lines of work permit the purdah from being unveiled, while others are condemned. Its unfortunate, because if for example there are two sisters, one studies medicine, while the other is fantastic as an artist, I see no reason why she shouldn't be able to express herself. What wrong is she doing?

++ [ originally posted by Zé Tahir ] ++
Tell me, just a few years back, wasn't a "french kiss" a big NO NO in Bollywood/India? Is it today? No! Why not? I wouldn't be suprised if there was an Indian beach volleyball team.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard. What's wrong with a 'french kiss' or sex for that matter? I dont care whether Bollywood shows it on screen or not because at least we're not being hypocrites about it even if we are showing it. Are you trying to tell me a 'french kiss' is wrong and a woman should be looked down upon. Are you trying to tell me women in Pakistan dont french kiss or have sex? It reminds of what Imran Khan once said about women in India being whores. Too bad he had to eat humble pie when he realised he was married to one.

 

[HelterSkelter]

i think tahir was talking about sex being showed on screen.you live in india baggio,so your definaton of right or wrong would be different from that of a pakistani.i respect your values.but that does not mean that what is practiced in pakistan is incorrect or is narrow minded.
being a practicing muslim,i know what is right and wrong in our religion and its not up to non-muslims to judge weather its acceptable or not,no offence intended.faith is a personal matter and only a person who practices a particular faith what know what is forbidden in it and what is not forbidden.i could say things about hinduism which i think are wrong,but my opinion would count for nothing because im not a practicing hindu.your opinion with respect to hinduism would hold a lot more weightage than mine.similarly,my opinion on islamic practices would hold more weightage than a non-muslim's opinion.
the things you have mentioned about the indian cricket team visiting pakistan and being forced to play indoors,sania mirza being slammed for wearing minis etc,these are things that are in accordance with what islam has commanded us to do,no matter how narrow minded it may seem to a non-muslim.and being a practicing muslim,i know what being a devout muslim means.and i can assure you that had sania mirza is not as devout as the media makes her to be,and neither are azharuddin and other famous indian muslims who claim to be devout muslims.it is simply because they fail to follow the basic islamic orders.
revealing large parts of the body in public is strictly forbidden for women,but sania mirza does that.regardless of what her sport demands,she is not following a very basic requirement of islam and her devoteness to islam falls right then and there.she might be a good muslim other wise ie offering prayers reguarly,fasting etc.but she fails to follow a very basic islamic requirement and that does not make a her a devout muslim.you have these film stars and cricketers who have married hindu women,and even that is forbidden in islam.islam does not allow courtship between someone who belongs to a religion that is not of the book(according to islam) and hinduism does not follow in that category,neither do buddhaism or sikhs.so the faith of these celebrities is very questionable,and i dont regard them as so called devout muslims that the media potrays them as.

though a man's faith is a personal matter between him and god,and we are in no such position to judge how commited a person is,but still,these people donot follow basic islamic requirements wether a non-muslims likes it or not.and any muslim who claims saying that these people ARE infact following what islam has laid down,then im sorry to say,they have a very weak faith.this even goes for all those screwed up mullahs with overgrown beards.

and i have never heard of that Imran Khan comment that you have mentioned.he would have enough sense in him to not pass such a comment anyway.and btw,unless im very much mistaken,he only got married once and that was to jemima.i think you are confusing mohsin khan with imran khan.mohsin married an inidan actress,not imran.

 

[baggio]

I'm not questioning your faith AXL. What I'm questioning is, how you can disregard the muslims here as being less Islamist than their Pakistani counterparts. Trust me, the only reason you'd say Wasim Akram is more muslim than say, Mohammed Azharrudin is because Azhar is married to a hindu wife. The only reason Wasim is considered more Islamist is because he comes from a more stringent background in my opinion. Otherwise I cant see any difference between him and Azhar. They both practice Ramzan, they both read the Quran, they both make daily visits to the mosques and pray to Allah. So I think it is unfortunate that the discrimination happens on such a narrow scale. Take the example of your actress Meera whose come to Bollywood. You pretty much considered her a devout muslim until that point. When put in context, I feel its a little hypocritical.

As for Sania, I think she could go anywhere in the world and be counted as an average Muslim. Despite the fact that she's on a tennis court. If women are not allowed to show their bodies, isnt it a contradiction when they get married? Again, not questioning your faith but moreso its basis of distinction between one muslim and another.

With regards to the cricketer, I'm not confusing Mohsin with Imran Khan, I'm infact referring to Imran himself: he made this comment at the height of his powers, although I find it hard to recollect the year back then. So yes, the referral was to Jemina who had converted to Islam and considered herself to be a devout Pakistani muslim.

 

[HelterSkelter]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++
I'm not questioning your faith AXL. What I'm questioning is, how you can disregard the muslims here as being less Islamist than their Pakistani counterparts. Trust me, the only reason you'd say Wasim Akram is more muslim than say, Mohammed Azharrudin is because Azhar is married to a hindu wife. The only reason Wasim is considered more Islamist is because he comes from a more stringent background in my opinion. Otherwise I cant see any difference between him and Azhar. They both practice Ramzan, they both read the Quran, they both make daily visits to the mosques and pray to Allah. So I think it is unfortunate that the discrimination happens on such a narrow scale. Take the example of your actress Meera whose come to Bollywood. You pretty much considered her a devout muslim until that point. When put in context, I feel its a little hypocritical.

As for Sania, I think she could go anywhere in the world and be counted as an average Muslim. Despite the fact that she's on a tennis court. If women are not allowed to show their bodies, isnt it a contradiction when they get married? Again, not questioning your faith but moreso its basis of distinction between one muslim and another.

With regards to the cricketer, I'm not confusing Mohsin with Imran Khan, I'm infact referring to Imran himself: he made this comment at the height of his powers, although I find it hard to recollect the year back then. So yes, the referral was to Jemina who had converted to Islam and considered herself to be a devout Pakistani muslim.

i agree with almost everything you said other than meera's faith.she's a whore,in the actual sense.never been a real muslim,never will be either.
and with regards to sania,muslim women are allowed to please the husband.theres a difference between showing your body in front of the whole world and showing it to your husband.

 

[Zé Tahir]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++

Obviously, I'm not a student of Islam, so my knowledge therein stems from the documentaries that I may have watched or news related articles that I would've read. And I'm sure despite you're knowledge, what I may have seen or read does not necessarily curb the truth in its entirety. Surely, there is some basis of such articles.

That's why I say you should go straight to the source rather than listening to the media.

I dont get it. Some lines of work permit the purdah from being unveiled, while others are condemned. Its unfortunate, because if for example there are two sisters, one studies medicine, while the other is fantastic as an artist, I see no reason why she shouldn't be able to express herself. What wrong is she doing?

Again, you're using words like "freely", "express". Your view on that is different from ours. Ask anyone who chooses to wear hijaab, and they'll tell you they express themselves just like any other woman, but in a different way; they don't have to shake their asses to "express" themselves. As to why a doctor is allowed not to wear hijaab and an artistis is, it's not for the sake of expression. It's difficult to have it on when you're working, it can hinder you work if you constantly have to control your headgear, etc.




I think Axl explained the rest.

 

[Zé Tahir]

++ [ originally posted by axlrose85 ] ++


i agree with almost everything you said other than meera's faith.she's a whore,in the actual sense..

:dielaugh:

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by axlrose85 ] ++


i agree with almost everything you said other than meera's faith.she's a whore,in the actual sense.

A super hot one at that.

 

[ßöмßäяðîëя]

Don't go out in the rain without a raincoat, get me?

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by Zé Tahir ] ++

they don't have to shake their asses to "express" themselves.

Who said they have to? But now that you bring it up, give them a choice, and see what they prefer.

 

[Zé Tahir]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++


Who said they have to? But now that you bring it up, give them a choice, and see what they prefer.

They do have a choice; they choose it for themselves baggio, if people followed the rules like they are there woman wouldn't be forced b/c that's not allowed. There are many women in Pakistan walking around w/no hijaab. But in the literal sense, "shaking their asses" would not be allowed in our society, because it's against out religion and our tradition. That's part of the reason why we have our own country. Seeing how little knowledge you have of Islam, and how "liberal" Indians are, I am glad we have our own country. I just hope that this downslope that past leaders have started us on will fix, and insh'allah one day we'll have true Islamic and democratic laws, i.e. without "mullah-ism"

Now you're going to tell me how happy Sharukh Khan is and etc. Again, Axl explained this too, they aren't your average muslims. I recall reading on BBC that he's married to a hindu, and he said that in his house he has a Qur'an and statues of Hindu Gods, and that he exposes his kids to both, b/c they both carry good values.

Though I agree with the fact they both have good values, this is not an act of a muslim. (i'm not calling him non-muslim )

Now, let's drop this, before we make a 360 turn and start all over again

 

[HelterSkelter]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++


A super hot one at that.

hot?
man,she looks like an AIDS patient!!

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by Zé Tahir ] ++


But in the literal sense, "shaking their asses" would not be allowed in our society, because it's against out religion and our tradition. That's part of the reason why we have our own country. Seeing how little knowledge you have of Islam, and how "liberal" Indians are, I am glad we have our own country.

It maybe against your regilion and tradition. Yet, Pakistani actresses choose to come to Bollywood. Though Meera is the first, I believe a few more would love to work with Mahesh Bhatt. That too, without wanting to change their nationailty or religion, wonder how you'd categorize them next. Anwyay, seeing how 'stringent' your beliefs are, I cant deny, I'm glad we have our own country too.

No offense, but seeing our current world status, Pakistan hasnt progressed on all platforms, the way India has. And I'd be quick to attribute that to the stringent norms, prevelant in modern day Pakistan today.

++ [ originally posted by Zé Tahir ] ++
Now you're going to tell me how happy Sharukh Khan is and etc. Again, Axl explained this too, they aren't your average muslims. I recall reading on BBC that he's married to a hindu, and he said that in his house he has a Qur'an and statues of Hindu Gods, and that he exposes his kids to both, b/c they both carry good values.

Though I agree with the fact they both have good values, this is not an act of a muslim. (i'm not calling him non-muslim )

Shah Rukh is not known as king khan all over the world for nothing. You say he's not your average muslim, but we both know, if Shah Rukh asks for Pakistani citizenship he'll be pre approved not only by the government but by the people of Pakistan. Wonder what will happen to the time honoured traditions? Even though there's a greater chance that donkeys will fly over the Delle Alpi than Shah Rukh leaving India for Pakistan. So, in the end I'm afraid my friend the 'below average' muslim claim is very hypocritical.


I know you wanted to end it with your last post, but there were certain points I needed to address. So now that I have, we can drop it.



PS: Oh and Ze, as regards your claims of me jumping the gun in blaming the Lashkar-e-toiba, I'd just like to let you know that the Inquilabi as reported in the news is a smaller front for the Toiba. And not just that, there also seems to be a hand of the Jaish-e-Mohammed. Just thought you should know.

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by axlrose85 ] ++


hot?
man,she looks like an AIDS patient!!

Have you seen her in the movie 'Nazar' and the new one 'Kasak' with Lucky Ali. I know she loves to strip for the camera, and that's probably why you hate her, but I dont know why you deny she's hot.

 

[Zé Tahir]

You know there are two colors on our flag, green, that represents the majority muslim, and the white, that represents the minority. So it wouldn't matter whether Sharukh Khan is a muslim or not.

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by Zé Tahir ] ++
You know there are two colors on our flag, green, that represents the majority muslim, and the white, that represents the minority. So it wouldn't matter whether Sharukh Khan is a muslim or not.

Would he be pre-approved the same way as he woud be now? In fact, I think it matters even more because he is a muslim.

 

[Zé Tahir]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++



Would he be pre-approved the same way as he woud be now? In fact, I think it matters even more because he is a muslim.

what do you mean pre approved? If you're talking about his fame, let me tell you pakistani's love sharukh khan.