India Rocks (2 Viewers)

[HelterSkelter]

pakistan isnt lagging behind india because because seeking independence was the wrong decision.it was the right decision and ill always maintain that.
the distribution of the citites,the resources etc severley damaged pakistan at the time of partition.Areas that should have gone to pakistan went to India.India was at a far greater advantage than pakistan at the time of partition becuase like i said,they were far more educated,and had greater govt jobs than the muslims.Their rapport with the british was far greater than the one the muslims had with the british.We had to start from scratch.The military,the resources we received were not fairly distrubted.You may have an different opinion on this,because lets face it,what you've read in your history books would differ from what ive read in mine.a hero in your history books would be a villian in our histoy books and vice versa.
And yes the country one before partition.But that was before the british took over.and gradually,things started to tense up between hindus and muslims.the two parties were at peace during the peak of the Mughal Era and before that.But ever since the Mughal empire was broken down by the British,things just got worse.the turn of the 19th century was a defining moment.the attitude of the Congress after it won the 1913 elections clearley showed that Hindus and Muslims could not live together.

the muslims who stayed behind in India,due their will or not,may b better off than the ones in pakistan in terms of education etc.but they are still a minority.and lets face it,no matter how broad minded a country may be,a minority will always be a minority.
and baggio,there is more to a nation than just looking at how well off you'll be economically.It has to do with the human rights,the freedom,the love for all too.What happened on the 14th and 15th of August 1947 was the right decision.

 

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[baggio]

At Ze:

Abdul Kalam
Shah Rukh Khan
Salman Khan
Aamir Khan
Mohammed Azharrudin
Mohammed Kaif
Mehboob
Lucky Ali
Dilip Kumar


Oh, and that list only involves the President of the country, only India's biggest bollywood stars and big cricketers. Should I start going into the list from the common man. Given, my country's large population count, that could take some time though.

 

[HelterSkelter]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++
At Ze:

Abdul Kalam
Shah Rukh Khan
Salman Khan
Aamir Khan
Mohammed Azharrudin
Mohammed Kaif
Mehboob
Lucky Ali
Dilip Kumar


Oh, and that list only involves the President of the country, only India's biggest bollywood stars and big cricketers. Should I start going into the list from the common man. Given, my country's large population count, that could take some time though.

how could you ignore the sizzling hot tabu?
and dia mirza?
i find sania mirza hot too though.

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by axlrose85 ] ++
pakistan isnt lagging behind india because because seeking independence was the wrong decision.it was the right decision and ill always maintain that.
the distribution of the citites,the resources etc severley damaged pakistan at the time of partition.Areas that should have gone to pakistan went to India.India was at a far greater advantage than pakistan at the time of partition becuase like i said,they were far more educated,and had greater govt jobs than the muslims

Fine, you had to start from scratch back then. But it was a 'Pakistani's' vision for an independent Pakistan in the first place. India may have gotten the eventual advantage, but did we want it in the first place? Would you, without being biased, in all honesty, say that you're happy with the way things are in modern day Pakistan? Would you say that today, even though you're as young as we are as a country, you're happy with economic development, infrastructure and overall level of affairs in Pakistan?

++ [ originally posted by axlrose85 ] ++
And yes the country one before partition.But that was before the british took over.and gradually,things started to tense up between hindus and muslims.the two parties were at peace during the peak of the Mughal Era and before that.But ever since the Mughal empire was broken down by the British,things just got worse.the turn of the 19th century was a defining moment.the attitude of the Congress after it won the 1913 elections clearley showed that Hindus and Muslims could not live together.

Yes, that;s because the attitude of the Congress as displayed in your history books is only Jinnah's version of the tale.

++ [ originally posted by axlrose85 ] ++
the muslims who stayed behind in India,due their will or not,may b better off than the ones in pakistan in terms of education etc.but they are still a minority.and lets face it,no matter how broad minded a country may be,a minority will always be a minority.
and baggio,there is more to a nation than just looking at how well off you'll be economically.It has to do with the human rights,the freedom,the love for all too.What happened on the 14th and 15th of August 1947 was the right decision.

That's utter rubbish. I'm sorry to say AXL, I dont know if its the Pakistani in you, but you seem to be a lot more narrow minded about this Hindu-Muslim thing, than my muslim friends here. I'm not trying to prove India's superiority by mentioning an economic viewpoint, but even given human rights here, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised how finely we balance the rights of muslims here. I remember, when Azhar was rightly implicated in the match fixing scandal, he said, he was being victimised because he was part of a minority. Do you know who were the first to burn his effigies on the streets? Muslims themselves.

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by axlrose85 ] ++


how could you ignore the sizzling hot tabu?
and dia mirza?
i find sania mirza hot too though.

Tabu is butt ugly. Please.

Dude, Sania is a hottie. I love her. And as for Dia Mirza, a hi-bye sort of friend of mine was seeing her until recently. Yep, she's pretty delicious.

 

[Layce Erayce]

To be honest, there's no such thing as a minority in India. Muslims in Indian more often than not belong to tight-knit communities and extended family systems, where they rarely feel like minorities. Also, severe discrimination and persecution is rare as they already have an established presence for decades. Even Christians live together in large christian communities and rarely face discrimination based on their name or religion.

Being persecuted as a minority is very rare in India on a day to day basis and religious violence is an anomaly, often aroused and led by religious zealots. But when it does happen its a big thing because of the sheer number of people involved.

 

[Zé Tahir]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++
At Ze:

Abdul Kalam
Shah Rukh Khan
Salman Khan
Aamir Khan
Mohammed Azharrudin
Mohammed Kaif
Mehboob
Lucky Ali
Dilip Kumar


Oh, and that list only involves the President of the country, only India's biggest bollywood stars and big cricketers. Should I start going into the list from the common man. Given, my country's large population count, that could take some time though.

Yea I thought you were going to mention these people. Let me remind you first of all, these bollywood stars aren't your average muslims. Actors aren't your average muslims. As for Azharuddin, was he given the positition b/c he was muslim or b/c he deserved the position based on his skills? And you know that we have a christian on our team (who now has converted to Islam), and in a few years we'll have a Sikh on our team.

Also, you've mentioned popular muslims within the indian society. Over here there are countless successful people, in all fields.

 

[HelterSkelter]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++



Fine, you had to start from scratch back then. But it was a 'Pakistani's' vision for an independent Pakistan in the first place. India may have gotten the eventual advantage, but did we want it in the first place? Would you, without being biased, in all honesty, say that you're happy with the way things are in modern day Pakistan? Would you say that today, even though you're as young as we are as a country, you're happy with economic development, infrastructure and overall level of affairs in Pakistan?

That's utter rubbish. I'm sorry to say AXL, I dont know if its the Pakistani in you, but you seem to be a lot more narrow minded about this Hindu-Muslim thing, than my muslim friends here. I'm not trying to prove India's superiority by mentioning an economic viewpoint, but even given human rights here, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised how finely we balance the rights of muslims here. I remember, when Azhar was rightly implicated in the match fixing scandal, he said, he was being victimised because he was part of a minority. Do you know who were the first to burn his effigies on the streets? Muslims themselves.

no im not happy with the economic development,infrastrucutre and overall level of affairs in pakistan.but im content.i belong to a middle class family,and yes obviously things could be much better in the country overall.but im not complaining.

and i never said that the muslims dont get the rights and freedom in india.im sure they do.
i was just making a general statement,that anywhere natons attain freedom,the first things on their minds are receving human rights and freedom.economic conditions take a back seat initially.

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by Zé Tahir ] ++


Yea I thought you were going to mention these people. Let me remind you first of all, these bollywood stars aren't your average muslims. Actors aren't your average muslims. As for Azharuddin, was he given the positition b/c he was muslim or b/c he deserved the position based on his skills? And you know that we have a christian on our team (who now has converted to Islam), and in a few years we'll have a Sikh on our team.

Also, you've mentioned popular muslims within the indian society. Over here there are countless successful people, in all fields.

What do you mean actors aren't your average muslims? That's a rather wierd thing to say. As for Azharuddin, he was given his position based on his skills, but that only strengthens my argument, that it was his skills that were considered and he was given the post irrespective of whether he was Muslim!

Yes, you have a Christian in your team, formerly known as Yousuf Youhana who has had to convert to Islam, like the media says, because he wants to become captain of the Pakistan team. I find Saeed Anwar really wierd for having helped Youhana convert. It only speaks for the difference in secularism between the Indian and Pakistani mindset as far as I'm concerned.

Yea Ze, obviously there are countless successful muslims in Pakistan but thats only because they're more of them there.

 

[HelterSkelter]

++ [ originally posted by Layce Erayce ] ++
To be honest, there's no such thing as a minority in India. Muslims in Indian more often than not belong to tight-knit communities and extended family systems, where they rarely feel like minorities. Also, severe discrimination and persecution is rare as they already have an established presence for decades. Even Christians live together in large christian communities and rarely face discrimination based on their name or religion.

Being persecuted as a minority is very rare in India on a day to day basis and religious violence is an anomaly, often aroused and led by religious zealots. But when it does happen its a big thing because of the sheer number of people involved.

muslims are a minority what ever way you look at it.you can put things into perspective and say that they get all humans rights,have freedom of speech and all etc.
but technically they are a minority and will always will be a a minority in india.
a well treated minority that gets all rights,but a minority nevertheless.

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by Layce Erayce ] ++
To be honest, there's no such thing as a minority in India. Muslims in Indian more often than not belong to tight-knit communities and extended family systems, where they rarely feel like minorities. Also, severe discrimination and persecution is rare as they already have an established presence for decades. Even Christians live together in large christian communities and rarely face discrimination based on their name or religion.

Being persecuted as a minority is very rare in India on a day to day basis and religious violence is an anomaly, often aroused and led by religious zealots. But when it does happen its a big thing because of the sheer number of people involved.

Where you been Josh? Havent seen you on msn in ages.

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by axlrose85 ] ++


muslims are a minority what ever way you look at it.you can put things into perspective and say that they get all humans rights,have freedom of speech and all etc.
but technically they are a minority and will always will be a a minority in india.
a well treated minority that gets all rights,but a minority nevertheless.

But AXL, seeing the Pakistani mindset, I find them be more radically Islamist than their Indian counterparts. Which is why, they perhaps actually prefer being part of this minority.


Did you hear the Sania controversy recently? Some Pakistani based Sufi saint said that Sania was going against Islam by showing her legs etc? Her father who is an avid muslim, rebuffed those claims and said Sania would continue to play her tennis because thats what she wants to do. And its not her fault because its in the rulebook that you cannot cover your legs because that hampers movement. What can the poor girl do? And the way I see it, it only works better for people like me, when I get to see her like that on court.

 

[Zé Tahir]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++



What do you mean actors aren't your average muslims? That's a rather wierd thing to say. As for Azharuddin, he was given his position based on his skills, but that only strengthens my argument, that it was his skills that were considered and he was given the post irrespective of whether he was Muslim!

Yes, you have a Christian in your team, formerly known as Yousuf Youhana who has had to convert to Islam, like the media says, because he wants to become captain of the Pakistan team. I find Saeed Anwar really wierd for having helped Youhana convert. It only speaks for the difference in secularism between the Indian and Pakistani mindset as far as I'm concerned.

Yea Ze, obviously there are countless successful muslims in Pakistan but thats only because they're more of them there.

Actors and singers work in fields which are looked down upon. Especially actresess, a lot of them are considered whores. As for Youhana converting to Islam. What do you mean "had to convert", are you saying he was forced to convert? Why did Anwar help him convert? After Anwars daughter passed away, he became religious, is that wrong?

 

[Zé Tahir]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++



But AXL, seeing the Pakistani mindset, I find them be more radically Islamist than their Indian counterparts. Which is why, they perhaps actually prefer being part of this minority.


Did you hear the Sania controversy recently? Some Pakistani based Sufi saint said that Sania was going against Islam by showing her legs etc? Her father who is an avid muslim, rebuffed those claims and said Sania would continue to play her tennis because thats what she wants to do. And its not her fault because its in the rulebook that you cannot cover your legs because that hampers movement. What can the poor girl do? And the way I see it, it only works better for people like me, when I get to see her like that on court.

What should come first? Religion or your personal life? No one is forcing her to play tennis, so yes she can do something about it. She can quit! She can take a stance against the rules that say you have to wear short skirts, etc.

 

[baggio]

That's my point. In India, and the world over artists are revered. I dont get this whole attitude that its a profession that's looked down upon etc. Its ridiculous. Dilip Kumar is a fine actor of his generation and he is still a devout muslim, I really dont see anything wrong with that. Look at Strings and Junoon, they've got some fantastic musical expression, how can they be looked down upon when they've got such talent?

As for Youhana, Ze, I dont agree with you. I'm afraid I believe the press when they say that Youhana has become a practicing Muslim because his Christianity held him back from becoming captain of the Pakistani cricket team. Saeed Anwar quit cricket because his eating habits changed, yes his daughter passed away, but he adopted an extremely rigid attitude. His metamorphosis was a little extreme the way I saw it, and this whole Youhana conversion thing I think only supplements that fact. In fact, as stated in the press, Youhna's family condemned Anwar for having done this. And were devestated with the conversion.

 

[Layce Erayce]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++



Where you been Josh? Havent seen you on msn in ages.

Yeah I havent used it in long. Maybe I'll log on sometime. How are you doing?

A question to axlrose: whats wrong with being a minority specifically?

 

[baggio]

++ [ originally posted by Zé Tahir ] ++


What should come first? Religion or your personal life? No one is forcing her to play tennis, so yes she can do something about it. She can quit! She can take a stance against the rules that say you have to wear short skirts, etc.

Dude, she's like 18 and the world is at her feet. Why should she have to throw away her talent and sit at home? She's got dreams and she ought to chase them. It doesn't make her any less muslim. I think she'd be wasted sitting at home in a burkha when she's currently touched # 32 in the world. I'm sorry, but I think your stance is unjustified.

 

[Zé Tahir]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++
That's my point. In India, and the world over artists are revered. I dont get this whole attitude that its a profession that's looked down upon etc. Its ridiculous. Dilip Kumar is a fine actor of his generation and he is still a devout muslim, I really dont see anything wrong with that. Look at Strings and Junoon, they've got some fantastic musical expression, how can they be looked down upon when they've got such talent?

As for Youhana, Ze, I dont agree with you. I'm afraid I believe the press when they say that Youhana has become a practicing Muslim because his Christianity held him back from becoming captain of the Pakistani cricket team. Saeed Anwar quit cricket because his eating habits changed, yes his daughter passed away, but he adopted an extremely rigid attitude. His metamorphosis was a little extreme the way I saw it, and this whole Youhana conversion thing I think only supplements that fact. In fact, as stated in the press, Youhna's family condemned Anwar for having done this. And were devestated with the conversion.

If Youhana converted b/c he wanted to become captain of the cricket team, what does that tell you about his faith? Such a weak faith that he converts in order attain a desired position in the cricket team. And obviously, his family is against his conversion. Christians are a minority in Pakistan and losing Youhana, who also a big public figure amongs them, is a sad thing for them. As for Anwar being an extremist, what has he done that is extreme?

2nd

Don't argue with me about what's Islamic and not Islamic. I think I have more knowledge than you in that department. The environment that surrounds actors and singers aren't good. They involve prostitutin, alchohol, drugs, etc. Junoon, whose music I enjoy myself, does sing patriotic and "islamic" music. But do you even know what they sing about? I doubt it, because you wouldn't have mentioned them if you knew.

 

[Zé Tahir]

++ [ originally posted by baggio ] ++



Dude, she's like 18 and the world is at her feet. Why should she have to throw away her talent and sit at home? She's got dreams and she ought to chase them. It doesn't make her any less muslim. I think she'd be wasted sitting at home in a burkha when she's currently touched # 32 in the world. I'm sorry, but I think your stance is unjustified.

Again, I think your knowledge of Islam is poor. You're also using stereotypes. No she doesn't have to "waste" her time sittin at home in a burka. She has apparently chosen her carrier over her religion.

 

[baggio]

I dont see how she's done that. She still practices Ramzan, and she still goes to the mosque.

Ze, if you think this way, I cant even imagine what goes on in the head of those assholes that are part of the Toiba or Inquilabi sects.