Immigration, migration, refugees. (3 Viewers)

[JCK]

Taken from the thread about Lebanon to seperate the subjects.

what you think

please discuss

What now? Why don't you ask Jeeks if that's the way he feels.

I did not leave Lebanon as a refugee. I had other reasons but I can say one thing concerning that issue, it is what one makes out of the situation that one gets treated. I wanted to intigrate in the Swedish society, I wanted to learn the language as fast as possible and I did. All of my friends are Swedes, I learned the language and was able to communicate pretty well in a span of one and a half years. I have met people who have been in Sweden for fifteen years and speak as much as I did after three months in the country.

Look at what happened in France last year; they blamed the french government but I only blame them. When you are in another country for any reason, you should make an effort not to be second-hand human.

 

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[Akerman]

This is why anti-semitism exists.

 

[ReBeL]

I did not leave Lebanon as a refugee. I had other reasons but I can say one thing concerning that issue, it is what one makes out of the situation that one gets treated. I wanted to intigrate in the Swedish society, I wanted to learn the language as fast as possible and I did. All of my friends are Swedes, I learned the language and was able to communicate pretty well in a span of one and a half years. I have met people who have been in Sweden for fifteen years and speak as much as I did after three months in the country.

Look at what happened in France last year; they blamed the french government but I only blame them. When you are in another country for any reason, you should make an effort not to be second-hand human.

I don't want to change the noble reason behind this thread, but the society that receives you can't be always as generous as the Swedish one...

That's my point...

When you go to another country where its original people see you as a threat for them although you didn't do anything to them yet...

 

[JCK]

I don't want to change the noble reason behind this thread, but the society that receives you can't be always as generous as the Swedish one...

That's my point...

When you go to another country where its original people see you as a threat for them although you didn't do anything to them yet...

When one moves from one country to another and is given the status of a citizen, it all remains up to the individual to see the generousity of the society.

In Sweden there is segregation and it is as obvious as it can get but still it is up to the foreigners to take what the society is giving them. Regardless of how the natives see you, you are still given all the rights to be seen differently. I am a foreigner and I live in a foreigner-region but I don't hangout with them. There are places in Sweden where you do not hear Swedish at all; people who live there do not need to go anywhere but their surrounding and continue to speak their own language and above all nag that the social welfare is low.

I meet people sometimes and ask me who do I know in Sweden who are from Lebanon and they get surprised and hammer me with questions on why's the case. It is because I want to benefit to the max from the generousity of Sweden.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

Look at what happened in France last year; they blamed the french government but I only blame them. When you are in another country for any reason, you should make an effort not to be second-hand human.

there's a huge difference between integration and assimilation.

 

[JCK]

there's a huge difference between integration and assimilation.

Elaborate please.

 

[GordoDeCentral]

integrating a society, being an active member to its development is definitely what is expected of every immigrant. But to expect them to leave their national origin at the border is simply ludicrous. The problem in france is that of names and skin color. How can you call third generation kids not integrated? The french are still dusting off their colonial perception. But i have seen the other side too, one marred with ignorance, then again what do you expect when you import laborers...

 

[ReBeL]

Well, I think assimilation is when the person goes to another community and becomes one of the greater community by converting his own traditions into theirs, and this case can't be used properly in the group immigration's case...

Much like what's happening to Arabs going to USA, except Detroit region...

On the contrary, integration requires that the two parties: Hosts and refugees will accept the other party as is without changing much of its traditions, norms and behaviours...

I think Pakistani immigrants to Britain are a clear example for this case...

 

[JCK]

Well, I think assimilation is when the person goes to another community and becomes one of the greater community by converting his own traditions into theirs, and this case can't be used properly in the group immigration's case...

Much like what's happening to Arabs going to USA, except Detroit region...

On the contrary, integration requires that the two parties: Hosts and refugees will accept the other party as is without changing much of its traditions, norms and behaviours...

I think Pakistani immigrants to Britain are a clear example for this case...

You drew a very thick line here. I think that integration can and should involve culture mixing, at least from the individual side, not the state.

 

[ReBeL]

You drew a very thick line here. I think that integration can and should involve culture mixing, at least from the individual side, not the state.

Well, each refugee has to be integrated in the society, but the degree of his integration depends on how he involoves himself in doing good things to his new community, but I think the most important factor here is the acceptancy of the community to this new alien who came from abroad because of several reasons...

Some of the hosts see him as a threat to their working opportunities, their religious thoughts or their purity...

On the other hand, you can see some of the hosts who see the new refugee as a good addition to the community by exploiting his skills into the general good of the whole community...

Unfortunately, I have to talk about my experience...

Palestinians did many wrong things, and I can't deny that we were the reason for many wars in the region because we have so much varied opinions between the different lyers of us...

Most of the Palestinians who went to the West were treated generously, and I mean with West, South America and some regions of USA and Europe...This was an example for the second type mentioned above...

The painful thing is that the group of palestinians who ran away to most of the Arab countries were treated badly, sometimes because of behaviours of some refugees, but at most of the times, without any justification...

That's the reason that makes the refugees' issue in the Middle East never-ending for ever...

 

[Martin]

Well, each refugee has to be integrated in the society, but the degree of his integration depends on how he involoves himself in doing good things to his new community, but I think the most important factor here is the acceptancy of the community to this new alien who came from abroad because of several reasons...

Some of the hosts see him as a threat to their working opportunities, their religious thoughts or their purity...

On the other hand, you can see some of the hosts who see the new refugee as a good addition to the community by exploiting his skills into the general good of the whole community...

It's very much a two way street this. On the one hand you are asking a community to accept a new person, an outsider, into their midst and extend their hospitality, respect to someone they do not know what to expect from. So it's understandable that people are cautious. On the other hand, the person who moves to a completely new place and a lot of adjustments are expected of him. So you can't win just pushing from one side, it has to be a compromise. To cloud the issue considerably you have politicians and various other stakeholders offering their unbiased input for the benefit of both sides.

 

[Slagathor]

In my experience any friction between natives and immigrants (first generation, anyway) always comes forward from non-understanding. And I don't mean failing to understand another one's culture because cultural barriers have little to do with this.

I mean failing to understand what it's like to move to another country and trying desperately to build a life there. If you want to understand what emigration is like: vacationing doesn't cut it. I didn't come to understand what immigrants in this country must feel until I moved abroad myself for several months. And that was mere months.

Yet people do assume they know. I see it in my parents, who have never lived outside this country, and who dismiss the difficulty of migration far too easily. And my parents are not the type to generalise, even...

 

[ReBeL]

It's very much a two way street this. On the one hand you are asking a community to accept a new person, an outsider, into their midst and extend their hospitality, respect to someone they do not know what to expect from. So it's understandable that people are cautious. On the other hand, the person who moves to a completely new place and a lot of adjustments are expected of him. So you can't win just pushing from one side, it has to be a compromise. To cloud the issue considerably you have politicians and various other stakeholders offering their unbiased input for the benefit of both sides.

Well , let's take the issue in details...

The host country accepts the refugees as :

1- Refugees who'll go back to their land one day in the future, and here the refugee is not getting involved in the domestic issues of the host country. Here, you can't except the refugee to keep being discriminated against wherever he goes in the new country...You have to give him a future plan to make him know where he and his sons will be after afew years.

Instability for the situation of the refugee can lead to an instability for the host country, and as a result, much mutual hatred between this refugee and the local people, which maybe the reason for a conflict of interests and wars...

2- Refugees who'll be normal citizens with the same rights and obligations of the local people. Here, you can expect the refugee to be grateful to you by doing his best to give back some of the blessings this new country has gave him...

And unfortunately, if I want to be accurate in the Middle East, no one country used the second choice except Syria for the Palestinian refugee, so, you don't find a Palestinian who makes problems in Syria because he has the whole rights like other Syrians...

 

[Seven]

Thing is these "communities" you are talking about are actually countries. Whenever immigration is the subject I believe that ideologically speaking you can't say someone's not welcome in a country. Why would an African or a Lebanese have to go a harder life than a Belgian? Because he wasn't born in Belgium?

 

[ReBeL]

Thing is these "communities" you are talking about are actually countries. Whenever immigration is the subject I believe that ideologically speaking you can't say someone's not welcome in a country. Why would an African or a Lebanese have to go a harder life than a Belgian? Because he wasn't born in Belgium?

Well, I don't generalize this on the whole immigration situation all over the world...

I was just talking about refugees in the Middle East...

 

[Seven]

In my experience any friction between natives and immigrants (first generation, anyway) always comes forward from non-understanding. And I don't mean failing to understand another one's culture because cultural barriers have little to do with this.

I mean failing to understand what it's like to move to another country and trying desperately to build a life there. If you want to understand what emigration is like: vacationing doesn't cut it. I didn't come to understand what immigrants in this country must feel until I moved abroad myself for several months. And that was mere months.

Yet people do assume they know. I see it in my parents, who have never lived outside this country, and who dismiss the difficulty of migration far too easily. And my parents are not the type to generalise, even...

I was in Salerno last week you know. Still baffled by how Italians look down on people who don't speak the language while they themselves have trouble speaking even English. Though some American tourists do deserve that treatment .

Not understanding you say? I have to say I see the lack of willingness to understand more often than the lack of capacity to understand.

 

[Martin]

Rebel: I don't know anything about immigration in the Middle East, I really cannot pretend to discuss it with you.

I was in Salerno last week you know. Still baffled by how Italians look down on people who don't speak the language while they themselves have trouble speaking even English. Though some American tourists do deserve that treatment .

Not understanding you say? I have to say I see the lack of willingness to understand more often than the lack of capacity to understand.

Capacity, you say. Do you have the capacity to understand the operation of a nuclear reactor? (I'm just taking a completely random example here.) Sure you do, but you never will unless you're exposed to it. Immigration is very complicated and people who haven't been exposed to it don't understand. Starting with those who say things like "Zidane should represent his home country, I don't care if he *was* born in Marseille"

So yes, what you said is very obvious.

 

[Slagathor]

I was in Salerno last week you know. Still baffled by how Italians look down on people who don't speak the language while they themselves have trouble speaking even English. Though some American tourists do deserve that treatment .

You were in Salerno? How did you like it?

And I vividly remember having a discussion with an Italian whom I'd just met. He went on to mention how he had been studying English for seven years so naturally I ask him to say something in English, he continued:

"Aye am... No, wait-er, maye nameh eess"

Not understanding you say? I have to say I see the lack of willingness to understand more often than the lack of capacity to understand.

I find the lack of capacity to understand is usually hidden by denial of the person suffering from it. Someone seemingly unwilling to understand usually doesn't have the capacity to...

A friend of mine phrased it beautifully the other day: De stommeling beseft nooit dat 'ie stom is

 

[ReBeL]

Rebel: I don't know anything about immigration in the Middle East, I really cannot pretend to discuss it with you.

So fine...

I can't talk about being a refugee in Europe as I didn't experience that...

Thank you, anyway...

 

[ReBeL]

If you survive, you can go on to lead a productive life. Hell, you can dedicate your life to charity and helping others if you so please, make a real impact.

If you're dead, you're dead and that's that.

Here's the difference, mate...

I'm also talking about Middle East only...

If you're a refugee, you have to pass some generations until you can regain your identity as a human who can be productive according to other people...

And I assure you, that your grandsons will be the first people to insult you and your being a chicken bringing them into another country...

Enough about Middle East, I think...