"I support Muslims who love freedom" (6 Viewers)

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Apr 12, 2004
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But the religion was in a way forced upon them. A lot of people say that if you try to force a religion or anything at anyone. It won't work. After what I recall, after the revolution Iran became very strict compared to what it used to be. Therefore there was massive fled to the west.
The entire Mid East has religion forced upon them.
 

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JBF

اختك يا زمن
Aug 5, 2006
18,451
Wrong. If they couldn't use religion to gain power they would have tried some other way to gain power, but nowhere is it said that they would succeed to the same extent. This is precisely the point: religion supplies a wide range of superstition that unprincipled people can abuse. If the superstition wasn't there, it couldn't be abused. Agree?

Let's do a thought experiment. Suppose Fred is an unscrupulous tyrant wannabe and wants to take power. His specialty is abusing superstition in the population. Unfortunately, in his country religious belief has been [noone knows how] removed entirely. So now he has to base his propaganda on other types of superstition. People who believe in ghosts, UFOs, psychics etc etc. Unfortunately for Fred, the percentage of such believe is far, far lesser than the number of people who once believed in god. So the number of people who are likely to be fooled this way is not 50% but maybe 10%. Ergo, the threshold to a power grab is higher (which is good thing?)

When you say "they would have used some other means" you are presenting the motive as the conclusion. You are saying that no matter what anyone might have done, they would succeed one way or another. This is not only cynical and fatalistic, it's also not particularly reasonable. It should be logical that the struggle for power is a competition between various parties and the party with the best advantage is most likely to win. Thus it matters a great deal what that advantage may be.
One of the most famous tyrant regime's in the ME as admitted by almost everyone was that of Saddam Hussein, yet his regime was in fact one of an anti-religion approach or at least didn't rely on anything that has to do with religion to gain control over the people.

The same goes for many dictators here too, may it be Syria, Egypt, Morocco or even here on Jordan. Religion, precisely Islam is the biggest target for these regimes to stabilizes the people.

ßöмßäяðîëя;2774449 said:
The entire Mid East has religion forced upon them.
Oh really, and where the fuck did you have this conclusion from?
 
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Martin

Martin

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Dec 31, 2000
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    One of the most famous tyrant regime's in the ME as admitted by almost everyone was that of Saddam Hussein, yet his regime was in fact one of an anti-religion approach or at least didn't rely on anything that has to do with religion to gain control over the people.

    The same goes for many dictators here too, may it be Syria, Egypt, Morocco or even here on Jordan. Religion, precisely Islam is the biggest target for these regimes to stabilizes the people.
    If you're a dictator then you control the population with military power and it makes no difference what you say or what you say your values are. Especially not in a totalitarian state where your secret police is given the task to sniff out and eliminate the slightest resistance as early as possible.

    But neither is that the subject of conversation here. We're talking about a government that needs a certain amount of support in the population to survive. And appealing to religious values is a great way to garner that support, especially from those living in relative poverty and ignorance.

    Tell me, if Iran was let's say 70% atheist, would the current government be able to gain/maintain power?
     
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    Martin

    Martin

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    Dec 31, 2000
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    What religion did Hitler use to manipulate his people? Because hot damn, whatever he did he had the most success in the shortest time.
    Religion isn't the only breeding ground for lunacy, is that your argument? I happen to agree.
     

    swag

    L'autista
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    Sep 23, 2003
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    Religion is entirely a product of its times and environment. No question. There's a reason why Zoroasters and Sumerians are harder to come by these days.
     
    Apr 12, 2004
    77,165
    Religion is entirely a product of its times and environment. No question. There's a reason why Zoroasters and Sumerians are harder to come by these days.
    Sumerians are especially hard to find since in the Third Reckoning Gozor came in the form of a giant Slor, many found out what it was like to roast in the belly of the Slor that day I can tell you.
     

    JBF

    اختك يا زمن
    Aug 5, 2006
    18,451
    But neither is that the subject of conversation here. We're talking about a government that needs a certain amount of support in the population to survive. And appealing to religious values is a great way to garner that support, especially from those living in relative poverty and ignorance.
    Every government needs a certain amount of support, hell almost any dictator would eventually fall if he's not getting enough support from his people. There's no such thing as the need for religion create a system of allusion to the people in order to cut their balls, such systems exist as a result of power abuse by the government and whether or not the people are religious or not has got nothing to do with it. Actually, such religious people could in fact be the ones who are rebellious and asking for a change like I've pointed out before.

    Tell me, if Iran was let's say 70% atheist, would the current government be able to gain/maintain power?
    No, but it wouldn't either if those 70% were lets say Christians, Jews, Buddhist...etc. Religion was simply the salvation for many of the Iranian people who turned for it in order to get rid of a huge dictator, No one could have predicted these religious figures would turn out to be on the same level as the tyrant if not even worse. But then again this could have ended the same way (I mean with a dictatorship too) even if the Iranian people turned to an atheist who simply wanted all the power to himself.

    Tyranny has got nothing to do with religion but obsession with power that simply grows inside of many men but some more than others.

    ßöмßäяðîëя;2774567 said:
    It's a fact. You are a Muslim because your parents are, without them, or the region in which you live, you would most certainly not be a Muslim.

    Fact.
    That maybe true but that doesn't change the fact that I could have changed my religion, as many have or had done, had I believed it was the right thing to do.

    Im a muslim because I've faith in this religion and what it is all about.
     

    JBF

    اختك يا زمن
    Aug 5, 2006
    18,451
    ßöмßäяðîëя;2774650 said:
    Then I am right.
    No, you're not. Having muslim parents is as influential in anybody's religion as an atheist/Christian/Jew..etc. would be in their kid's life. So no, religion isn't forced upon us in the ME unless you still think our parents hold AK47 and roam the house screaming "Allah AKABAR" and waving the gun promising to shoot us if we didn't be a good muslims.
     

    Fake Melo

    Ghost Division
    Sep 3, 2010
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    ßöмßäяðîëя;2774651 said:
    Serious question:

    Do you guys REALLY think you are a bad person/Muslim if you eat pork?

    It depends, if you eat it on purpose, and don't regret later it is bad for you. But I am not judging anyone and saying who is a good muslim and who is a bad muslim.

    A non-muslim however, can do as he wants.
     
    Apr 12, 2004
    77,165
    No, you're not. Having muslim parents is as influential in anybody's religion as an atheist/Christian/Jew..etc. would be in their kid's life. So no, religion isn't forced upon us in the ME unless you still think our parents hold AK47 and roam the house screaming "Allah AKABAR" and waving the gun promising to shoot us if we didn't be a good muslims.
    Wrong, Muslim, Fundamentalist Christian, and Hindu parents tend to be much more traditional and anti-progressive.
     
    Apr 12, 2004
    77,165
    It depends, if you eat it on purpose, and don't regret later it is bad for you. But I am not judging anyone and saying who is a good muslim and who is a bad muslim.

    A non-muslim however, can do as he wants.
    Of course.

    I'm just saying, do you feel bad/sit around crying if you intentionally eat pork?

    Because you know not eating pork 2000 years ago made a lot more sense as it was a much dirtier animal and had a much higher risk of disease.....
     

    JBF

    اختك يا زمن
    Aug 5, 2006
    18,451
    ßöмßäяðîëя;2774671 said:
    Wrong, Muslim, Fundamentalist Christian, and Hindu parents tend to be much more traditional and anti-progressive.
    And that's one big ass generalization.
     

    Fake Melo

    Ghost Division
    Sep 3, 2010
    37,077
    ßöмßäяðîëя;2774675 said:
    Of course.

    I'm just saying, do you feel bad/sit around crying if you intentionally eat pork?

    Because you know not eating pork 2000 years ago made a lot more sense as it was a much dirtier animal and had a much higher risk of disease.....



    That depends on how religious the parents are though.
     
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