Heysel: In Memoriam (20 Viewers)

[AlexDelPiero10]

True.

The communication between the Belgian and English police forces apparently was almost non-existent.

One phone call between the forces would have been enough for the Belgians to be made aware that the Liverpool fans would be likely to engage in some 'running' and the English could have expained how to deal with it.

As is always the case with these accidents, in the aftermath in becomes apparent that any number of things could have been done to prevent the incident.

Instead of trying to prevent any of this, they tried to cover up their mistakes by convincting several Liverpool fans and banning English clubs from Europan football, while really the police should have taken full responsibility. The hipocrisy still angers me. You're a law student yourself, you know that convincting a Liverpool fan of manslaughter here was quite a stretch.

 

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[IrishZebra]

Lifetime bans to Ultras and the like is the best way to fix football violence.

Firm hand.*




*warning: Law and Order is a concept alien to many Italians.

 

[AlexDelPiero10]

Both Liverpool and the stadium gets the blame but naturally when it's about murder the stadium isn't the one to point the finger at. And I agree completely with Uefa's reaction the same way I agree with what the English justice system did to those convicted with manslaughter.

There was no murder.

 

[bianconero]

I expected more from you.

I may have missed your attempt at sarcasm, and responded to the two post of yours that I read.


And please don't change your low opinion of me.

 

[blondu]

I thought you were affronted by my calling someone pathetic, or was I mistaken?

I read the first post which suggested that we have a certain decorum on these pages, which I felt that person had neglected, and so I told him that in no uncertain tones.

Was I wrong to do so?

i was affwhatever by you calling rab's post pathetic....and i forgot about the rules gray putted in when he creeated this thread. Anyways you really can't blame rab or any other juventus fan attitude against liverpool.. I agree that these things happened so long ago but still forgetting about them, and hiding or neglecting the way they dided would be a disgrace towards those fans.

RIP

 

[Enron]

I have to agree with much of what's been said in the last couple of pages. While the direct actions by the Liverpool fans was disgusting and unforgivable, it was the inaction of the Belgians as well as the "cult of hooliganism" in football at the time that allowed the incident to happen.

There was fighting before the game, fighting during the game, and fighting after the game. Many of England's firms were present and looking for revenge. Sometimes it seems to me that Liverpool (rightfully so) have been the scapegoat for a disgusting culture of football violence.

 

[Nicholas]

It takes two to tango, by all account the Italians were throwing missles into the Liverpool fans stand hence why they were charged.

 

[Enron]

That's true, but Liverpool could have backed off after the initial charge.

There are ifs and buts for a lifetime. But I refuse to use excuses to take the blame from my club.

 

[Nicholas]

That's true, but Liverpool could have backed off after the initial charge.

There are ifs and buts for a lifetime. But I refuse to use excuses to take the blame from my club.

Thats noble of you however I don't think Liverpool should shoulder all the blame for the incident.

 

[Enron]

Thats noble of you however I don't think Liverpool should shoulder all the blame for the incident.

Well from what I've read, most of us have accepted that we will always be seen as the bad guys in this and that we can only do our best to try and change that image. I'm sure the club will continue to reach out and even though Juve supporters are likely to spurn our attempts at friendship, it is their right to do so.

Granted there will always be bad eggs that refuse to adhere to the rules.

 

[bianconero]

Well from what I've read, most of us have accepted that we will always be seen as the bad guys in this and that we can only do our best to try and change that image. I'm sure the club will continue to reach out and even though Juve supporters are likely to spurn our attempts at friendship, it is their right to do so.

Granted there will always be bad eggs that refuse to adhere to the rules.

I think those who were conscience enough to have lived through that day will never be able to think of Liverpool and connect it them to that tragic night. Those same people, for the most part, will also be unable to feel anything other than hate towards Liverpool. I for one will not condemn them for that natural reaction, unless they cause physical harm to others. Many of course will pass this hate on to their children, in the same way they pass on their passion and love for Juve.

 

[David01]

what the hell are you guys talking about
all the Italians did was whistle and throw flares to the English
you didn't see those English, they were all drunk with a mad lust for blood, they charged repeatedly and never stopped when people were getting trampled
they wanted them dead no question about it
sure there wasn't enough police but only an entire army would have stopped them
these weren't fans they were criminals
believe me, I was there
granted I was only a kid on the other side of the stadium who didn't fully comprehend what was going on but but the English were very aggres ive long before the game even started
when you hit someone in the face you can't say you weren't at fault because you had the chance and nobody stopped you!
that day has forever changed my life, I had never seen someone dead before
think about that before you start defending those innocent English because there wasn't enough police
innocent Juve men and women died over there

 

[JBF]

There's your reply 7.

 

[AlexDelPiero10]

what the hell are you guys talking about
all the Italians did was whistle and throw flares to the English
you didn't see those English, they were all drunk with a mad lust for blood, they charged repeatedly and never stopped when people were getting trampled
they wanted them dead no question about it
sure there wasn't enough police but only an entire army would have stopped them
these weren't fans they were criminals
believe me, I was there
granted I was only a kid on the other side of the stadium who didn't fully comprehend what was going on but but the English were very aggres ive long before the game even started
when you hit someone in the face you can't say you weren't at fault because you had the chance and nobody stopped you!
that day has forever changed my life, I had never seen someone dead before
think about that before you start defending those innocent English because there wasn't enough police
innocent Juve men and women died over there

It's not like punching someone in the face. It's more like threatening to punch someone in the face and the guy tries to run away and trips over something. That's what happened.

Ow and the Ultra were not as innocent as you claim them to be. They're not even innocent right now.

There's your reply 7.

Why didn't you write something yourself?

 

[JBF]

See the thing is, there were barely any ultras in that section attacked. It was mostly families and kids there but that won't change your mind about it would now.

I didn't bother to reply because I've said it all in previous pages and I was getting tired repeating myself over and over again.

 

[AlexDelPiero10]

See the thing is, there were barely any ultras in that section attacked. It was mostly families and kids there but that won't change your mind about it would now.

I didn't bother to reply because I've said it all in previous pages and I was getting tired repeating myself over and over again.

But I'm not saying the Liverpool fans were innocent. I'm saying they're not murderers. You claim there was a murder.

Actus rea?
Mens rea?

 

[IrishZebra]

But I'm not saying the Liverpool fans were innocent. I'm saying they're not murderers. You claim there was a murder.

Actus rea?
Mens rea?

Europa Kinderland?

 

[JBF]

But I'm not saying the Liverpool fans were innocent. I'm saying they're not murderers. You claim there was a murder.

Ofcourse there was, those pool fans attacked the Juve section with nothing but harm as an intention the proof is that they didn't stop even when many Juve fans were jumping off the wall but they kept pushing and attacking them. In my book that's murder or at least an attempt of murder but to you maybe it's just a silly joke that went wrong and for that I provide you with more info, did you know that pool's hooligans kept on throwing rocks and flares to the Juve section for almost 3 hours before the kick off? These fans were obviously fired up to take revenge for what happened a year ago.

In May 1985 Liverpool were the premier football team in Europe, having been European Cup champions in four of the previous eight seasons. Liverpool reached the final again in 1985, and were looking to defend the title that they won by defeating Roma the previous year. Trouble had occurred at the previous season's European Cup final with a number of Liverpool fans being attacked by fans of Roma both before and after the match.

They wanted some Italian blood and Juve just happened to be the opposition whose fans had to pay for what Roma's ultras did.

Actus rea?
Mens rea?

I've no idea what that's supposed to mean.

 

[AlexDelPiero10]

Ofcourse there was, those pool fans attacked the Juve section with nothing but harm as an intention the proof is that they didn't stop even when many Juve fans were jumping off the wall but they kept pushing and attacking them. In my book that's murder or at least an attempt of murder but to you maybe it's just a silly joke that went wrong and for that I provide you with more info, did you know that pool's hooligans kept on throwing rocks and flares to the Juve section for almost 3 hours before the kick off? These fans were obviously fired up to take revenge for what happened a year ago.

My book is the book people use when they study criminal law. What's yours? Sometimes it's not easy to qualify something as murder, but it's pretty damn obvious that we're not talking about murder here.

Look. If someone hits a guy with a rock (actus rea) with the intention of killing him (mens rea) and the guy dies, that's murder.

If someone threatens to hit a guy with a rock and the guy runs for his life, but unfortunately enough falls of a cliff, it's not murder. Under no circumstances.

You keep bringing stuff up that has nothing to with murder. There were crimes committed that evening. Murder was not one of them.

 

[IrishZebra]

It's more like if a group of people intend to inflict violence on others and those others die as a result of that intent no?

Manslaughter is the most apt IMO