Heysel: In Memoriam (3 Viewers)

[JBF]

My book is the book people use when they study criminal law. What's yours? Sometimes it's not easy to qualify something as murder, but it's pretty damn obvious that we're not talking about murder here.

Look. If someone hits a guy with a rock (actus rea) with the intention of killing him (mens rea) and the guy dies, that's murder.

If someone threatens to hit a guy with a rock and the guy runs for his life, but unfortunately enough falls of a cliff, it's not murder. Under no circumstances.

You keep bringing stuff up that has nothing to with murder. There were crimes committed that evening. Murder was not one of them.

Yea but the intention of murder was there. Anyway, you mocked the way I judged this fine since I have no international law knowledge what so ever unlike the English and Belgium justice systems and here's what they came up with:

The British police undertook a thorough investigation to bring to justice the perpetrators. Some 17 minutes of film and many still photographs were examined. TV Eye produced an hour-long programme featuring the footage and the British press also published the photographs.

There were 27 arrests on suspicion of manslaughter – the only extraditable offence applicable to events at Heysel. The majority of these people were from Merseyside. Some of these people had previous convictions for football-related violence. In 1989, after a 5-month trial in Belgium, fourteen Liverpool fans were given 3-year sentences for involuntary manslaughter.[15] Half the terms were suspended[16] and it is unclear how many served their sentences.

Is their interpretation of murder is also at fault 7?

 

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[AlexDelPiero10]

It's more like if a group of people intend to inflict violence on others and those others die as a result of that intent no?

Manslaughter is the most apt IMO

Maybe. Criminally negligent manslaughter I suppose. But still. Would the same behaviour in a normal stadium have had the same effect? Were the Liverpool fans really supposed to know that THIS would be the result of their actions? I mean, it's not the first time there was hooliganism inside a stadium and in general pretty much everyone was just fine after the game.

I don't know man, the convictions of some Liverpool fans just don't sit well with me.

JBF, classifying it as a murder is a complete joke and there is no judge who will ever think of it as such.

 

[AlexDelPiero10]

Yea but the intention of murder was there. Anyway, you mocked the way I judged this fine since I have no international law knowledge what so ever unlike the English and Belgium justice systems and here's what they came up with:


Is their interpretation of murder is also at fault 7?

That's pretty funny dude. Not only does that verdict say there was no intention to kill those people, it also talks about involuntary manslaughter.

It completely disagrees with you.

 

[Enron]

Yea but the intention of murder was there. Anyway, you mocked the way I judged this fine since I have no international law knowledge what so ever unlike the English and Belgium justice systems and here's what they came up with:


Is their interpretation of murder is also at fault 7?

So that you know JBF, under law, manslaughter is not considered murder. It's considered a lesser crime that resulted in death.


You can actually be convicted of murder, if that's indeed the case.

 

[Enron]

Here's some more reading.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m013.htm

Definition of manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice or premeditation, either express or implied; distinguished from murder, which requires malicious intent.

 

[AlexDelPiero10]

Here's some more reading.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m013.htm

Definition of manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice or premeditation, either express or implied; distinguished from murder, which requires malicious intent.

It's unclear how many served their sentences the article says. Could it be, hypothetically speaking, that they were used as scapegoats? Once "justice had seen to be done" they could go on and live their lives.

 

[JBF]

So man-slaughter is actually unintentional-crime-committing?



Well that's just great.

 

[AlexDelPiero10]

So man-slaughter is actually unintentional-crime-committing?



Well that's just great.

How else would it work?

 

[JBF]

It's fuckin called MAN SLAUGHTER! why the hell call it that when slaughter wasn't (supposedly) committed?


What a fucked-up name.

 

[AlexDelPiero10]

It's fuckin called MAN SLAUGHTER! why the hell call it that when slaughter wasn't (supposedly) committed?


What a fucked-up name.

It's called that way, because someone is dead. But now you know, the Liverpool fans were not murderers.

 

[Enron]

It's fuckin called MAN SLAUGHTER! why the hell call it that when slaughter wasn't (supposedly) committed?


What a fucked-up name.

It's all based on intent.

Imagine if it was a rainy day and you lost control of your car and killed someone. Should you be prosecuted for the crime of murder?

 

[AlexDelPiero10]

It's all based on intent.

Imagine if it was a rainy day and you lost control of your car and killed someone. Should you be prosecuted for the crime of murder?

I'm now wondering if the convictions have fueled the fire even more. Perhaps there more like jbf who look at them and think there was a murder conviction.

If one actually knows what manslaughter is and reads that it's unclear how many served their sentences, you get a very different image of the situation.

 

[Enron]

I'm now wondering if the convictions have fueled the fire even more. Perhaps there more like jbf who look at them and think there was a murder conviction.

If one actually knows what manslaughter is and reads that it's unclear how many served their sentences, you get a very different image of the situation.

If you think about it. That was way before facial recognition software and high def video camera technology.

 

[JBF]

It's all based on intent.

Imagine if it was a rainy day and you lost control of your car and killed someone. Should you be prosecuted for the crime of murder?

Actually, here in Jordan for example. I would be. The laws here stress on the fact that in case of a car accident that involves a car hitting a pedestrian even if the pedestrian just popped out of the sewer, it's the driver's fault.

But there's an intention of changing that law now

 

[Enron]

Actually, here in Jordan for example. I would be. The laws here stress on the fact that in case of a car accident that involves a car hitting a pedestrian even if the pedestrian just popped out of the sewer, it's the driver's fault.

But there's an intention of changing that law now

That's why our legal system is so good. We differentiate between accidents, crimes of passion, self defense, and dudes that just like to go around killing people.

 

[bianconero]

I think that this, I am a know-all and you a know-nothing has no place in this thread.

Discussing the deaths of others as a chance to gain oneupmanship is rather petty.

 

[Enron]

I don't feel I've one-upped anyone.

 

[David01]

Ow and the Ultra were not as innocent as you claim them to be. They're not even innocent right now.


you make it sound like their was a fight between two groups
there wasn't, those were families out there not some hardcore hooligans
in the beginning flares were thrown and there were chants but the only ones who wharged were the Liverpool-fans and they never stopped not even when the first victims were evacuated on the pitch
I have nothing against Liverpool or it's fans but that night, back then they behaved like animals and they wanted to see Italian blood flow
whatever you want to call it, makes no difference today
but everytime I hear of riots and fights in and around football-stadia, I remember that game and say to myself that we still haven't learnt a thing
football is supposed to be a game, never worth dying for

 

[Red]

It's fuckin called MAN SLAUGHTER! why the hell call it that when slaughter wasn't (supposedly) committed?


What a fucked-up name.

Scotland's version of manslaughter, 'culpable homocide', has a much more appropriate name in my book.


Seven is correct on the legal matters.


I know it is difficult, but folk need to avoid letting emotions influence their judgement on matters such as this.

 

[blondu]

we have a man of law here so imo we better hear and accept his opinion about the case.