Gym and fitness (33 Viewers)

[Seven]

These days I wonder if foam rolling and stretching isn't entirely overrated.. Is there actual science backing it up?

 

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[JCK]

These days I wonder if foam rolling and stretching isn't entirely overrated.. Is there actual science backing it up?

Placebo is more than enough.

 

[Oggy]

These days I wonder if foam rolling and stretching isn't entirely overrated.. Is there actual science backing it up?

There is definitely big hype about it, it's a new fancy thing everyone should do, and I don't buy it

 

[Seven]

Placebo is more than enough.

It is. But I think it causes people like myself not to focus enough on rest.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Is any form of massage a placebo, that is what it is meant to simulate. I've found my back has been a lot better this week since doing it, I don't know if it is placebo but it just feels looser

 

[Zacheryah]

Few people at my gym using those foamrollers. Keep telling me it would speed up the recovery of my back and quadriceps.


I personally find that sitting or lying down most of the day, does that aswel, combined with good sleep and food, but thats just me perhaps.

 

[Post Ironic]

These days I wonder if foam rolling and stretching isn't entirely overrated.. Is there actual science backing it up?

There's huge science backing up stretching...

Foam rolling is a different story. Massage therapy is great, but foam rolling on your own is pretty hit or miss as to whether people could even do it right.

 

[Salvo]

The left part of my lower back is fucked. Need to get it checked. It gets better, to the point where it is is almost gone then I'll do something and it hurts again.

 

[Seven]

There's huge science backing up stretching...

Foam rolling is a different story. Massage therapy is great, but foam rolling on your own is pretty hit or miss as to whether people could even do it right.

Actually there is no science backing up stretching. And I mean none. There is not a single study out there that has demonstrated stretching prevents injury.

What we do know is that for exceptional flexibility you need to stretch. But that is something else.

 

[Post Ironic]

Actually there is no science backing up stretching. And I mean none. There is not a single study out there that has demonstrated stretching prevents injury.

What we do know is that for exceptional flexibility you need to stretch. But that is something else.

What?

This isn't true at all. There are various studies in favour of both sides of this argument. But a lot of it depends on specific requirements of the sport participated in.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15233597

Sports involving bouncing and jumping activities with a high intensity of stretch-shortening cycles (SSCs) [e.g. soccer and football] require a muscle-tendon unit that is compliant enough to store and release the high amount of elastic energy that benefits performance in such sports. If the participants of these sports have an insufficient compliant muscle-tendon unit, the demands in energy absorption and release may rapidly exceed the capacity of the muscle-tendon unit. This may lead to an increased risk for injury of this structure. Consequently, the rationale for injury prevention in these sports is to increase the compliance of the muscle-tendon unit. Recent studies have shown that stretching programmes can significantly influence the viscosity of the tendon and make it significantly more compliant, and when a sport demands SSCs of high intensity, stretching may be important for injury prevention. This conjecture is in agreement with the available scientific clinical evidence from these types of sports activities.

Aside from this, there is a massive difference between various forms of stretching. IE. Static stretching, dynamic stretching, Pre-contraction stretching. Most studies that suggest stretching provides no benefit are done on traditional static stretching models.

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I'm very opposed to pre-exercise static stretching. I actually think it's quite dangerous for most athletes. But a warm-up should include active/dynamic stretches in the form of mobility exercises.

 

[Seven]

What?

This isn't true at all. There are various studies in favour of both sides of this argument. But a lot of it depends on specific requirements of the sport participated in.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15233597



Aside from this, there is a massive difference between various forms of stretching. IE. Static stretching, dynamic stretching, Pre-contraction stretching. Most studies that suggest stretching provides no benefit are done on traditional static stretching models.

No. There aren't studies in favour or against. There are studies that say stretching may have negative effects. Why? We don't know. Are we sure they're there? No, we don't. Basically we know close to nothing about stretching, other than the fact we have demonstrated that under no circumstances it will prevent injury. And this is probably the best researched topic in sports science.

As for the various mobility drills: no demonstrated effect whatsoever. The mobility you need for a certain activity is best gained by doing that activity it seems. Again, no evidence at all.

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As for warming up: running is about as good as it gets for a warm up for me. Stretching irritates my muscles and mobility drills do nothing unless they're intensive enough to make me sweat. All in all I'd say that your warm up should get you physically warm and that's it.

 

[Post Ironic]

No. There aren't studies in favour or against. There are studies that say stretching may have negative effects. Why? We don't know. Are we sure they're there? No, we don't. Basically we know close to nothing about stretching, other than the fact we have demonstrated that under no circumstances it will prevent injury. And this is probably the best researched topic in sports science.

As for the various mobility drills: no demonstrated effect whatsoever. The mobility you need for a certain activity is best gained by doing that activity it seems. Again, no evidence at all.

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As for warming up: running is about as good as it gets for a warm up for me. Stretching irritates my muscles and mobility drills do nothing unless they're intensive enough to make me sweat. All in all I'd say that your warm up should get you physically warm and that's it.

http://eprints2008.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/17085/1/JS%26CR8-48.pdf

However, static stretching for 30 seconds tended to decrease leg extension power in this study. It was also notable that the subjects who had greater leg extension power before static stretching showed greater reduction in power. Therefore, static stretching for 30 seconds may not be an effective technique for improvement of muscular performance. On the other hand, the results of this study revealed that dynamic stretching enhanced leg extension power, suggesting that dynamic stretching may be an appropriate technique for improving muscular performance.

There are studies, and this is exactly what I'm linking. I've read a large number of these studies on both dynamic and static stretching modalities and the effects.

You clearly are talking nonsense if you say there is no evidence for this whatsoever. There's certainly conflicting studies out there. But to say there is no research is ridiculous. A simple google search can recover a huge number of studies. When I was at Simon Fraser University our Kinesiology section of the library had a massive section of paper and research studies on the effects of stretching. Many inconclusive.

But to suggest there are no studies is absurd.

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http://e-space.mmu.ac.uk/e-space/bitstream/2173/3519/3/williams%2520-%2520effects%2520of%2520differential%2520stretching.pdf

There was no significant difference among the differ- ent warm-up protocols for vertical jump performance, as shown in Figure 3 (ANOVA p �� 0.074). There were sig- nificant differences among the different warm-up proto- cols for acceleration (Figure 4), with dynamic stretching resulting in significantly superior performance than no stretching (ANOVA p �� 0.025, no stretch vs. static p �� 0.079, no stretch vs. dynamic p �� 0.011, static vs. dynam- ic p �� 0.350). In tests for maximal speed (Figure 5), static and dynamic stretching produced significantly better per- formance than did no stretching (ANOVA p �� 0.0005, no stretch vs. static p �� 0.0005, no stretch vs. dynamic p �� 0.0005, static vs. dynamic p �� 0.921). There were signif- icant differences among the warm-up protocols for agility (Figure 6), with dynamic stretching resulting in signifi- cantly better performance than static stretching and no stretching (ANOVA p �� 0.0005, no stretch vs. static p �� 0.232, no stretch vs. dynamic p �� 0.001, static vs. dynam- ic p �� 0.0005).

Dynamic stretching resulted in the best scores in all but the vertical jump test; therefore, used within precom- petition warm-ups, it is probably optimal for the high-speed performances required in sports such as soccer. Dynamic stretching is an active contractile process, and the performance benefits obtained may stem from facilitated motor control (6) via rehearsal of specific movements, increased muscle blood flow, or elevated core or peripheral temperature, which may increase the sensitivity of nerve receptors and increase the speed of nerve impulses, potentially encouraging muscle contractions to be more rapid and forceful (19).

I've linked you 3 studies now that show that dynamic stretching is beneficial for speed-strength sports.

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And directly related to the sport we all enjoy... Professional soccer player study with static stretching vs no stretching vs dynamic stretching in warm-ups, showing dynamic stretching is very beneficial for speed, acceleration, and agility.

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2006/02000/Effects_of_Differential_Stretching_Protocols.33.aspx

The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of different modes of stretching within a pre-exercise warm-up on high-speed motor capacities important to soccer performance. Eighteen professional soccer players were tested for countermovement vertical jump, stationary 10-m sprint, flying 20-m sprint, and agility performance after different warm-ups consisting of static stretching, dynamic stretching, or no stretching. There was no significant difference among warm-ups for the vertical jump: mean +/- SD data were 40.4 +/- 4.9 cm (no stretch), 39.4 +/- 4.5 cm (static), and 40.2 +/- 4.5 cm (dynamic). The dynamic-stretch protocol produced significantly faster 10-m sprint times than did the no-stretch protocol: 1.83 +/- 0.08 seconds (no stretch), 1.85 +/- 0.08 seconds (static), and 1.87 +/- 0.09 seconds (dynamic). The dynamic- and static-stretch protocols produced significantly faster flying 20-m sprint times than did the nostretch protocol: 2.41 +/- 0.13 seconds (no stretch), 2.37 +/- 0.12 seconds (static), and 2.37 +/- 0.13 seconds (dynamic). The dynamic-stretch protocol produced significantly faster agility performance than did both the no-stretch protocol and the staticstretch protocol: 5.20 +/- 0.16 seconds (no stretch), 5.22 +/- 0.18 seconds (static), and 5.14 +/- 0.17 seconds (dynamic). Static stretching does not appear to be detrimental to high-speed performance when included in a warm-up for professional soccer players. However, dynamic stretching during the warm-up was most effective as preparation for subsequent high-speed performance.

 

[Zacheryah]

I know this

Every single powerlifter holding some sort of world record, and has time to have 4 houre trainings, spend 1/4th of each training session extensively warming up muscles, in ways that are simular to stretching

Spoto, record holder raw benchpress (320something kg), uses bands and various rotational techniques
Konstantinovs and Magnusson spend like 30 minutes getting hamstrings and posterior chain all warm and stretched out before touching a barbell
Lilliebridge, Ygnvar, Malanichev, Koklyaev.. all have lenghty routines in wich they stretch out muscles for proper squats

I have limited time (2h) but i try to do as much of these aswel, and it really makes a difference. For example i spend 15 minutes stretching my shoulders to grip narrower when squatting, and my inner tighs to go deep enough without feeling resistance near the crotch area or around the knee's.


Athletes in any kind of explosive sport (athletics, but also football),spend quite some time warming up and stretching, as it reduces injury.



Stretching is quite important imo.

 

[Seven]

http://eprints2008.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/17085/1/JS%26CR8-48.pdf



There are studies, and this is exactly what I'm linking. I've read a large number of these studies on both dynamic and static stretching modalities and the effects.

You clearly are talking nonsense if you say there is no evidence for this whatsoever. There's certainly conflicting studies out there. But to say there is no research is ridiculous. A simple google search can recover a huge number of studies. When I was at Simon Fraser University our Kinesiology section of the library had a massive section of paper and research studies on the effects of stretching. Many inconclusive.

But to suggest there are no studies is absurd.

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http://e-space.mmu.ac.uk/e-space/bitstream/2173/3519/3/williams%2520-%2520effects%2520of%2520differential%2520stretching.pdf





I've linked you 3 studies now that show that dynamic stretching is beneficial for speed-strength sports.

- - - Updated - - -

And directly related to the sport we all enjoy... Professional soccer player study with static stretching vs no stretching vs dynamic stretching in warm-ups, showing dynamic stretching is very beneficial for speed, acceleration, and agility.

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2006/02000/Effects_of_Differential_Stretching_Protocols.33.aspx

I did not say there were no studies. I said there were no studies that proved stretching was beneficial. The studies you linked show possible marginal benefits of dynamic stretching, but it is unclear what dynamic stretching is in the first place and how it differs from the rest of the warm up. Just moving is in and of itself a mobility drill

I know this

Every single powerlifter holding some sort of world record, and has time to have 4 houre trainings, spend 1/4th of each training session extensively warming up muscles, in ways that are simular to stretching

Spoto, record holder raw benchpress (320something kg), uses bands and various rotational techniques
Konstantinovs and Magnusson spend like 30 minutes getting hamstrings and posterior chain all warm and stretched out before touching a barbell
Lilliebridge, Ygnvar, Malanichev, Koklyaev.. all have lenghty routines in wich they stretch out muscles for proper squats

I have limited time (2h) but i try to do as much of these aswel, and it really makes a difference. For example i spend 15 minutes stretching my shoulders to grip narrower when squatting, and my inner tighs to go deep enough without feeling resistance near the crotch area or around the knee's.


Athletes in any kind of explosive sport (athletics, but also football),spend quite some time warming up and stretching, as it reduces injury.



Stretching is quite important imo.

No. We do know stretching does not prevent injury. Powerlifters use it because they need special ranges of flexibilty to do wide stance squats for example. That does not mean stretching the hips is beneficial for everyone. In fact it will often aggravate existing hip conditions.

 

[Post Ironic]

I know this

Every single powerlifter holding some sort of world record, and has time to have 4 houre trainings, spend 1/4th of each training session extensively warming up muscles, in ways that are simular to stretching

Spoto, record holder raw benchpress (320something kg), uses bands and various rotational techniques
Konstantinovs and Magnusson spend like 30 minutes getting hamstrings and posterior chain all warm and stretched out before touching a barbell
Lilliebridge, Ygnvar, Malanichev, Koklyaev.. all have lenghty routines in wich they stretch out muscles for proper squats

I have limited time (2h) but i try to do as much of these aswel, and it really makes a difference. For example i spend 15 minutes stretching my shoulders to grip narrower when squatting, and my inner tighs to go deep enough without feeling resistance near the crotch area or around the knee's.


Athletes in any kind of explosive sport (athletics, but also football),spend quite some time warming up and stretching, as it reduces injury.



Stretching is quite important imo.

Yes. Most of these athletes do some sort of dynamic/active stretching incorporated right into the warm-up.

Seven is right if we're talking about the old-school warm-up and then hold static stretches for 30 minutes afterwards... That's not beneficial at all according to studies I have read... But dynamic stretching that is integrated into the very warm-up exercises has been shown by numerous peer-reviewed studies to be very beneficial for any speed-strength sport.

 

[Seven]

Yes. Most of these athletes do some sort of dynamic/active stretching incorporated right into the warm-up.

Seven is right if we're talking about the old-school warm-up and then hold static stretches for 30 minutes afterwards... That's not beneficial at all according to studies I have read... But dynamic stretching that is integrated into the very warm-up exercises has been shown by numerous peer-reviewed studies to be very beneficial for any speed-strength sport.

Then the question becomes what dynamic stretching really is.

 

[Zacheryah]

I'm currently stretching the tendons in my ellbow from the triceps and biceps connections, before doing squats and benchpresses.

Doing so with cables and nearly no weight on it, just to stretch out the muscle and tendon without putting stress onto it.


I find this greatly reduces the times these tendons get inflammated. And a badly inflammated tendon isnt nearly as flexible and can tear quicker, while a bad inflammation is an injury on its own.


So are the patella tendon, quadriceps tendon, and all those near the innter tigh. I could squat without warming those up, but especially the quadriceps tendon tends to start hurting pretty badly when putting significany %max on my back for a bit of volume

You feel it stretches itself out under the weight, but you also feel its in danger of getting damaged cause its not flexible yet. Dynamic stretching works on that



I do static stretching aswel. But thats not for injury purposes, thats to lenghten the hamstrings and romboids for example, to get a better form in the excercise.

 

[Post Ironic]

I did not say there were no studies. I said there were no studies that proved stretching was beneficial. The studies you linked show possible marginal benefits of dynamic stretching, but it is unclear what dynamic stretching is in the first place and how it differs from the rest of the warm up. Just moving is in and of itself a mobility drill



No. We do know stretching does not prevent injury. Powerlifters use it because they need special ranges of flexibilty to do wide stance squats for example. That does not mean stretching the hips is beneficial for everyone. In fact it will often aggravate existing hip conditions.

There are hundreds of studies that show improved performance in speed-strength athletes with dynamic stretching integrated into warm-ups. Not marginal benefits. Actual, measurable benefits. And what dynamic stretching is, is very clear. Each of these studies clearly defines what they use for the warm-up in all modalities. Dynamic, static, no stretch. I know exactly what dynamic stretching is. There are books written about by kinesiology PHDs, and sport science experts.

You're just being stubborn now, and it's silly.

No. There aren't studies in favour or against. There are studies that say stretching may have negative effects

That is your direct quote. You did say there were no studies in favour. Only studies saying stretching may have negative effects. That's simply not true for dynamic stretching. I've linked multiple studies in favour of dynamic stretching integrated into warm-ups and showing measurable performance improvements.

 

[Seven]

Your tendons hurt because they are overused, Zach. It's that simple. And trust me, I unfortunately know a thing or two about tendon injuries.

 

[Post Ironic]

Then the question becomes what dynamic stretching really is.

Each of these studies clearly explains what dynamic stretching is... There are also books and papers written on this subject.