Gym and fitness (42 Viewers)

[Seven]

Wait? How are PHDs in kinesiology who are constantly involved in studies with both athletes and regular people not "in the field"...

You're arguing your opinion, with no backing at all, from studies, research, evidence anything. Just your own opinion based mostly on what exactly, I don't know. It's not even an argument. You haven't supported your position with evidence at all.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile...ndividuals/links/09e415001c001910e9000000.pdf

P. 8 on the right. And this is a completely random example.

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Just a random study. Control group are the fastest sprinters. And I can find hundreds of these studies. Given that you find the opposite, I conclude that we know nothing about the benefits of stretching.

 

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[Post Ironic]

Okay. So give me one dynamic stretching movement that has been proven to improve sprint times. Surely that can't be hard given your extremely arrogant tone of voice?

What I would suggest is that our argument mostly stems from, what I see as, you not considering dynamic stretching as actually being stretching...? Am I right? Most of these studies define dynamic stretching very similarly and use very similar dynamic stretching modalities.

A simple warm-up is something like a jog. Dynamic stretching is just utilization of momentum in sport specific movements to propel muscles into elongated positions/extended ROMs. Leg Swings are a common one done in almost all of these studies, and with most professional athletes.

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http://www.researchgate.net/profile...ndividuals/links/09e415001c001910e9000000.pdf

P. 8 on the right. And this is a completely random example.

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Just a random study. Control group are the fastest sprinters. And I can find hundreds of these studies. Given that you find the opposite, I conclude that we know nothing about the benefits of stretching.

This says the Dynamic Stretch protocol to the no Stretch protocol had insignificant difference. It was the DS +SS protocol that showed significant impairment.

There are pretty much no studies that show reduced performance from Dynamic Stretch Protocols integrated into Warm-ups. And there are also a large number of studies that show significantly increased performance from Dynamic Stretch Protocols integrated into Warm-ups. So it seems to me the reality would lie somewhere in the realm of minor improvement with the inclusion of Dynamic Stretch protocols into a warm-up.

The only significant impairment and potentially dangerous protocol to use pre-exercise is static stretch, as there is quite a bit of literature with negative results, and very little with no impairment. And none at all with positive results.

But from research done thus far, Dynamic stretching seems to show results. Hence the reason the trainers for the best athletes in the world use Dynamic Stretching integrated into warm-ups. Because evidence points to it being beneficial.

 

[Seven]

Utilzation of momentum in sport specific movements..

This is what my argument is: dynamic stretching in these studies is usually so far removed from stretching as we know it and so close to the sport itself that I hardly see the benefits of it, were it not for the fact it might warm up your body slightly longer and better.

As for the study I quoted it does say the control group were the fastest. I only quoted the study because I wanted to show that accurately measuring these kind of results is very difficult if not impossible. Otherwise we could never have conflicting studies.

 

[Post Ironic]

Utilzation of momentum in sport specific movements..

This is what my argument is: dynamic stretching in these studies is usually so far removed from stretching as we know it and so close to the sport itself that I hardly see the benefits of it, were it not for the fact it might warm up your body slightly longer and better.

As for the study I quoted it does say the control group were the fastest. I only quoted the study because I wanted to show that accurately measuring these kind of results is very difficult if not impossible. Otherwise we could never have conflicting studies.

Certainly, but the difference in your study was insignificant, as in within statistical deviation of equal. As opposed to many studies showing dynamic stretching produced improvements beyond the statistical deviation. Significant improvement. That's what I meant. There are very few studies that show dynamic stretching decreases performance significantly. It's either:

dynamic stretching performance = no stretching performance
or
dynamic stretching performance > no stretching performance

Hence the reason almost all high level trainers of olympic athletes utilize dynamic stretching protocols.

Your argument with regard to just being a slightly longer warm-up would mean athletes could just jog for a longer time in their warm-up and it would have the same effect. And this just isn't true according to most of these studies. Sport specific movement done as dynamic stretches to slowly get your muscles working at their full ROM with strength is important before the actual sport or activity begins.

If I were giving anecdotal evidence. The reason sprinters do dynamic stretching in the form of leg swings before actually sprinting, is because they need to get their muscles working out at those extended ranges of motion without resistance before they sprint. Hence the reason they gradually extend the ROM of their leg swings during warm-up until they can comfortably and without resistance use the entire ROM. Not beyond their ROM like ballistic stretching or static stretching, but out to the full ROM.

The study you linked was not done with elite-professional level athletes/sprinters. It also used short duration dynamic stretching. The one study I linked was done with elite-professional level athletes/sprinters and long duration dynamic stretching.

These are all studies showing long duration dynamic stretching improves performance:

In contrast, dynamic stretching studies show facilitation of explosive (Manoel et al., 2008; Yamaguchi et al., 2007), sprint (Fletcher and Anness, 2007) and jump (Holt and Lambourne, 2008; Hough et al., 2009; Pearce et al., 2009) performance or no adverse effect (Christensen and Nordstrom, 2008; Samuel et al., 2008; Torres et al., 2008). In the context of dynamic stretching, the literature tends to indicate that shorter durations (< 90 s) of dynamic stretching do not adversely affect performance (Beedle et al., 2008; Samuel et al., 2008; Unick et al., 2005), and longer duration of dynamic stretches may facilitate performances (Hough et al., 2009; Pearce et al., 2009; Yamaguchi et al., 2007).

This article from the European Journal of Applied Physiology sums it all up quite well:

http://www.faculty.mun.ca/dbehm/EJAP_review_Behm_and_Chaouachi_2011.pdf

Dynamic stretching has been shown to either have no effect or may augment subsequent performance, especially if the duration of the dynamic stretching is prolonged.

Generally, a warm-up to minimize impairments and enhance performance should be composed of a submaximal intensity aerobic activity followed by large amplitude dynamic stretching and then completed with sport-specific dynamic activities.

In the context of dynamic stretching, the literature tends to indicate that shorter durations of dynamic stretching do not adversely affect performance (Table 5), and longer duration of dynamic stretches may facilitate performances (Fig. 7) (Hough et al. 2009; Pearce et al. 2009; Yamaguchi et al. 2008). An ANOVA comparing percentage changes in dynamic stretching studies (studies from Fig. 7) involving force and isokinetic power demonstrates significant (p = 0.006) performance enhancements with more (7.3% ± 5.3) compared with less (0.5% ± 2.3) than 90 s of dynamic stretching

And for the reasons why Dynamic Stretching improves performance:

The mechanisms by which dynamic stretching improves muscular performance have been suggested to be elevated muscle and body temperature (Fletcher and Jones 2004), post-activation potentiation in the stretched muscle caused by voluntary contractions of the antagonist (Hough et al. 2009; Torres et al. 2008), stimulation of the nervous sys- tem, and/or decreased inhibition of antagonist muscles (Jaggers et al. 2008; Yamaguchi and Ishii 2005). As a result of these effects, dynamic stretching may enhance force and power development (Hough et al. 2009; Torres et al. 2008; Yamaguchi and Ishii 2005). Indeed, Faigen- baum et al. (2005) and Yamaguchi and Ishii (2005) hypothesized that the increases in force output after dynamic stretching are caused by an enhancement of neuromuscular function, and they implied that the dynamic stretching had a post-activation potentiation effect on performance via an increase the rate of cross-bridge attachments (Houston and Grange 1990). Consequently, it allows a greater number of cross-bridges to form, and resulting in an increase in force production (Behm 2004). However, Herda et al. (2008) reported that dynamic stretching did not improve muscular strength, although electromyographic amplitude increased, which may reflect a potentiating effect of the dynamic stretching on muscle activation. As the mechanisms of static and dynamic stretching are not the primary focus of this review, readers would be encouraged to read further material on this topic (Guissard and Duchateau 2006

Things like decreased inhibition of antagonist muscles and post-activation potentiation in the stretched muscle caused by voluntary contractions of the antagonist... these are things that we already know about from the plyometric effect, and things that wouldn't happen in a regular warm-up lacking dynamic stretching.

 

[ALC]

Can we ban these two from the thread plz?

 

[Post Ironic]

The fact is, suggesting there is hardly a need for dynamic stretching because it "is so close to the sport itself" as you said, is wrong in my opinion. In a sprint you are expected to have full activation of all muscle fibres and any potentiation effects right from the get-go. With just a regular warm-up, these things wouldn't happen. You wouldn't have strength at your full ROM without restriction. You wouldn't have post-activation potentiation in stretched muscles. You wouldn't have decreased inhibition of antagonist muscles.... etc. Hence the need for dynamic stretching in a warm-up. It's the same with any sport or activity where you can't just gradually ease your way up to full-speed/full-intensity. If you have to go all-out from the very start, long-duration dynamic stretching (regardless of whether you want to call it stretching or not, all the literature calls it stretching) is integral to the warm-up. The large majority of sport science has shown this over the last dozen years.

You can disagree. But you're disagreeing with pretty much every high-level olympic athlete and their trainers out there. That's your right, but I don't see the point in falling behind the evolution of stretching just because studies mostly in the 90s and early 00s, said static stretching is bad, or because you disagree that dynamic stretching is even stretching.

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Can we ban these two from the thread plz?

For discussing the efficacy of stretching in the gym and fitness thread?

So off-topic.

 

[Seven]

Certainly, but the difference in your study was insignificant, as in within statistical deviation of equal. As opposed to many studies showing dynamic stretching produced improvements beyond the statistical deviation. Significant improvement. That's what I meant. There are very few studies that show dynamic stretching decreases performance significantly. It's either:

dynamic stretching performance = no stretching performance
or
dynamic stretching performance > no stretching performance

Hence the reason almost all high level trainers of olympic athletes utilize dynamic stretching protocols.

Your argument with regard to just being a slightly longer warm-up would mean athletes could just jog for a longer time in their warm-up and it would have the same effect. And this just isn't true according to most of these studies. Sport specific movement done as dynamic stretches to slowly get your muscles working at their full ROM with strength is important before the actual sport or activity begins.

If I were giving anecdotal evidence. The reason sprinters do dynamic stretching in the form of leg swings before actually sprinting, is because they need to get their muscles working out at those extended ranges of motion without resistance before they sprint. Hence the reason they gradually extend the ROM of their leg swings during warm-up until they can comfortably and without resistance use the entire ROM. Not beyond their ROM like ballistic stretching or static stretching, but out to the full ROM.

The study you linked was not done with elite-professional level athletes/sprinters. It also used short duration dynamic stretching. The one study I linked was done with elite-professional level athletes/sprinters and long duration dynamic stretching.

These are all studies showing long duration dynamic stretching improves performance:



This article from the European Journal of Applied Physiology sums it all up quite well:

http://www.faculty.mun.ca/dbehm/EJAP_review_Behm_and_Chaouachi_2011.pdf







And for the reasons why Dynamic Stretching improves performance:



Things like decreased inhibition of antagonist muscles and post-activation potentiation in the stretched muscle caused by voluntary contractions of the antagonist... these are things that we already know about from the plyometric effect, and things that wouldn't happen in a regular warm-up lacking dynamic stretching.

But those studies themselves say that longer dynamic stretching has better effects. Hence why I feel it may just be because of a longer warm up. As for the inhibition of antagonist muscles.. That's a theory I have serious doubts about. You cant't sprint without tensing practically all your thigh muscles.

This being said I have no problem with dynamic stretching and even do it myself. But I always felt the bulk of my warm up should consist simply of jogging. It's what works for me and I feel science does not disprove my feelings about this. Trutth be told I do mostly feel this way because the entire fitness world had been raving about achieving 'full hip extension' thereby obliterating healthy hips.

 

[Post Ironic]

But those studies themselves say that longer dynamic stretching has better effects. Hence why I feel it may just be because of a longer warm up. As for the inhibition of antagonist muscles.. That's a theory I have serious doubts about. You cant't sprint without tensing practically all your thigh muscles.

This being said I have no problem with dynamic stretching and even do it myself. But I always felt the bulk of my warm up should consist simply of jogging. It's what works for me and I feel science does not disprove my feelings about this. Trutth be told I do mostly feel this way because the entire fitness world had been raving about achieving 'full hip extension' thereby obliterating healthy hips.

There's a large amount of science that shows inhibition and relaxation of the nerves and antagonist muscle is very important for full contraction of the agonist muscle. It's one of the things that allows for proper triple-extension of the hip-knee-ankle in sprinting.

Aside from this, I actually agree with you that a large proportion of the warm-up should just be jogging or whatever other simple exercise you do to get the body temperature increased and the muscles warmed up.

I think the reason longer duration dynamic stretching works well is due to the increased time allowed for the muscle to get comfortable at the extended ROM. I don't know enough about that though.

 

[Seven]

There's a large amount of science that shows inhibition and relaxation of the nerves and antagonist muscle is very important for full contraction of the agonist muscle. It's one of the things that allows for proper triple-extension of the hip-knee-ankle in sprinting. .

Aside from this, I actually agree with you that a large proportion of the warm-up should just be jogging or whatever other simple exercise you do to get the body temperature increased and the muscles warmed up.

I think the reason longer duration dynamic stretching works well is due to the increased time allowed for the muscle to get comfortable at the extended ROM. I don't know enough about that though.

There's also a lot of science that says you need cocontraction of muscles for joint stability. And then you have the fact that one muscle usually does a lot of different things, sometimes aiding in flexion where you thought it would only help extend or vice versa.

The biggest possible benefit I could see is 'feeling' and becoming aware of how end rom feels through dynamic stretching. Whether you need that end rom depends entirely on your sport of course. If you are powerlifting or doing the splits, I'd say some form of dynamic stretching sounds like a good idea.

 

[Post Ironic]

This is the most important effect of dynamic stretching in my opinion...

Post-activation potentiation in the stretched muscle caused by voluntary contractions of the antagonist.

This is extremely important in sprinting and other speed-strength sports.

 

[Oggy]

Matri>Quag!!!

 

[Seven]

This is the most important effect of dynamic stretching in my opinion...

Post-activation potentiation in the stretched muscle caused by voluntary contractions of the antagonist.

This is extremely important in sprinting and other speed-strength sports.

I'm not convinced it works and don't think we are close to knowing how exactly it would. But I do believe that if there is a benefit of dynamic stretching it is that.

 

[Nzoric]

Matri>Quag!!!

 

[Ford Prefect]

So anyway, I got a foam roller today.

 

[Nzoric]

So anyway, I got a foam roller today.

I have no idea what people use those for.

Tuz, im looking to incorporate one core workout day during my week. Any recommendations?

 

[Seven]

What do you mean by core? As in abs?

 

[JCK]

So anyway, I got a foam roller today.

Did you get it ribbed? Because any other model is useless.

 

[Nzoric]

What do you mean by core? As in abs?

Abs, lower back and butt. Id like to do something that gets my pulse up thst isnt pure cardio and which helps me achieve the human flag.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Did you get it ribbed? Because any other model is useless.

My PT told me to get a foam one to begin with and then move on to a ribbed one when I've learnt the exercises and gotten used to it etc.

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I have no idea what people use those for.

Tuz, im looking to incorporate one core workout day during my week. Any recommendations?

Deep tissue massage, my PT is of the opinion that my muscles are knotted and prone to injury and has given me tonnes of stretches and foam roller moves he wants me to do so help my power lifting and get ready for o-lifts

 

[ALC]

Abs, lower back and butt. Id like to do something that gets my pulse up thst isnt pure cardio and which helps me achieve the human flag.

To achieve a human flag, you'll need more than one core workout a week. Deadlifts are the main thing as far as lower back, butt, and grip are concerned. Do pull-ups, ab exercises and shit like that too