Gym and fitness (48 Viewers)

[Azzurri7]

I hurt my right shoulder forcing it when I couldn't do anymore.

It didn't hurt much that night, but today I woke up with a pain. Any idea or what is the best way to treat it?

@Zach @X

 

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[Seven]

High bar squat focusses mostly on the quadriceps.

Low bar squat allows glutes, hamstrings and especially lower back muscles to add to the quadriceps. For this reason, low bar squat yields the highest possible raw squats.
Powerlifters are the only one using it, cause for powerlifting only the weight you can squat matters. We are the epitome of squat.

The high bar squat might appear more "natural" but its flawed and not as much of a compound as low bar squat. The ROM argument is wrong. The competition rules say "below parallell". It means its unneccecary to go lower, wich will cost you power, but it doesnt mean you cant.
Every worldclass raw or IPF equipped squatter, does pauze squats frequently. Wich is pauzed at the very bottom. There is no difference in rom.
Because olympic lifters are exceptionally agile in the bottom position, they seemb to go deeper, but its simply a demand of their mechanics.

The olympic weightlifter argument is also wrong. The reason they practice highbar squat is because of the mechanics of snatch and clean&jerk. For maximum yield, your upper body must be able to dive under the bar as fast as possible, and this can only be done with a vertical position. High bar is vertical, low bar is at an angle.


If you want general strength and a bigger squat, squat low bar. If you want stronger quadriceps, do front squats. If you are an olympic lifter you do high bar squats.

If you are anything else, do high bar, you dont have the back for low bar anyway.

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I do fucking hate however, how these fatass american multiply freakshows are giving powerlifting a bad name, especially considering ROM.


If you see a morbidly obese fatass standing with his legs extremely wide, in a big black suit, wel thats multiply. its the synthol of powerlifting. Everyone hates it apart from the handfull of idiots who do it

Zacheryah, you're just not taking into account the difference between bodies of people. I have far more glute activation in a high bar squat than in a low bar squat. A low bar squat, even when well executed, just kills my hips and back.

And to be fair, to say that the high bar squat is a quad exercise is just plain wrong. Look at the glutes on olympic lifters. Now look at the glutes on powerlifters. The olympic lifter's ass is all muscle. The powerlifter's ass is just fat.

In no way is the high bar squat 'flawed'. It requires more flexibility and is downright healthier than a low bar squat. Sure, it doesn't allow you to use as much weight - which makes it safer.

All that being said, there are people who do very well with a low bar squat. I suspect you are one of them. And it can give you great general strength gains, there is nothing wrong with low bar squat as such.

 

[Dostoevsky]

I hurt my right shoulder forcing it when I couldn't do anymore.

It didn't hurt much that night, but today I woke up with a pain. Any idea or what is the best way to treat it?

@Zach @X

Dude, just stop wanking, no need to force yourself. There's your cure as well.

 

[Post Ironic]

Olympic lifting is just a preferable methodology for developing maximal speed strength in high-performance athletes. Even the fact that O-lifters in the sport science tests during the 68 Olympics out performed all other athletes in vertical jump, and in 25 metre sprint, gives evidence of the efficacy of Olympic lifting training methods for developing athleticism.

The '68 75kg Olympic Champion Kurentsov was tested at a vertical of 101cm, the exact same High Jump world record holder Valeriy Brumel. 160kg Olympic Champion Zhabotinsky was able to jump 90cm, which is absolutely ridiculous for a man that big.

The Tricoli study (2005) showed that O Lifting as a training methodology significantly outperformed vertical jump and sprint exercises over an 8 week period in terms of increasing vertical jump ability and 10 metre sprint ability.

The Hoffmann study (2004) of 15 weeks on football players showed O Lifting to have a significant advantage over P Lifting methodology in both vertical leap improvement, and 40 metre sprint times.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I squat low bar, nuff said.

 

[ALC]

I squat high bar, nuff said.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I squat high bar, nuff said.

Come at me bro

 

[ALC]

I prefer coming at your mom, bro.

 

[Post Ironic]

I squat low bar, nuff said.

If your goal is absolute strength, this is the way to go, as Zach has said.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Do low and high bars at the same time for the best gains

 

[Post Ironic]

Do low and high bars at the same time for the best gains

So... hold two bars on your back at the same time?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

So... hold two bars on your back at the same time?

Exactly bro. You can't be a bitch about it if you want results

 

[Post Ironic]

If we were really tough we'd be pulling off the 3-Bar Pause Squat... Front Squat Bar, Olympic Squat High Bar, and Powerlifting Low Bar. Boom! Beastmode!

On a side note. Overhead squats are a fucking brutal exercise.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I prefer coming at your mom, bro.

I'm British, so I don't have a 'mom', red coat 4 life.

 

[Seven]

If your goal is absolute strength, this is the way to go, as Zach has said.

In terms of absolute strength there is only one king of exercises and it's not a squat .

 

[Zacheryah]

Zacheryah, you're just not taking into account the difference between bodies of people. I have far more glute activation in a high bar squat than in a low bar squat. A low bar squat, even when well executed, just kills my hips and back.

And to be fair, to say that the high bar squat is a quad exercise is just plain wrong. Look at the glutes on olympic lifters. Now look at the glutes on powerlifters. The olympic lifter's ass is all muscle. The powerlifter's ass is just fat.
In no way is the high bar squat 'flawed'. It requires more flexibility and is downright healthier than a low bar squat. Sure, it doesn't allow you to use as much weight - which makes it safer.
All that being said, there are people who do very well with a low bar squat. I suspect you are one of them. And it can give you great general strength gains, there is nothing wrong with low bar squat as such.

Those are some pretty wrong points you are attempting to make there.

First of all, you are nobody. You arent close to mastering a squat, you are not relevant to the comparison. If i would go running backwards and say my calves felt more invovled compared to running normal, its because i'm shitty at running.
If Dimitry Klokov, or Dan Green talk about glutes activation, they actually are a reference. When Boris sheiko who has coached countless gold medal winners in Both olympic and powerlifting says so, he's a reference. When Mike Tutchscherer or Louie Simmons talk about glute activation, they are a reference. One in raw, the other in geared and multigeared powerlifting.

Secondly, i've allready said you shouldnt do low bar squats if your back is not acclimatised for it. And the fat "it kills your hips" means your hipdrive is shit, your hip flexors are weak, and if those arent involved, you cant possible activate your glutes the proper way.

Thirdly, stop talking this utter nonsense cause you have 0 notion of mechanics. High bar squat is flawed because its less of a compound, and works under a less ideal torsion. "healthyer" is even bigger bullshit. Low bar spreads the load over more muscles, reducing the peak stress in the tendons and muscles. High bar puts significantly more strain on both the patella and quadriceps tendon. For the same weight, low bar is safer, if your back isnt behind, wich it never is for a powerlifter.

Fourthly, you are now comparing heavy weight powerlifters, very likely fatass multiply ones, to olympic lifters in weight category's. Olympic lifters dont nearly use their glutes as much, so they'll be developped less.


I'll repeat once more. Lowbar is for people with a strong back or powerlifters, who want to max the squat. High bar is for people who want to squat. front squat is for people who want to improve quadriceps.



One final word on "healthy". Olympic lifters typically dont last much over 30. Because their flexibility decreases, but mostly because their wrist, knee and hip join are destroyed. Powerlifters peak in their mid thirties, and can lift competitively easely in their 40ties, and when on TRT, pretty competitive aswel.

Thing is, if you arent squatting over 160kg, your type of squat doesnt matter.

Olympic lifting is just a preferable methodology for developing maximal speed strength in high-performance athletes. Even the fact that O-lifters in the sport science tests during the 68 Olympics out performed all other athletes in vertical jump, and in 25 metre sprint, gives evidence of the efficacy of Olympic lifting training methods for developing athleticism.

The '68 75kg Olympic Champion Kurentsov was tested at a vertical of 101cm, the exact same High Jump world record holder Valeriy Brumel. 160kg Olympic Champion Zhabotinsky was able to jump 90cm, which is absolutely ridiculous for a man that big.

The Tricoli study (2005) showed that O Lifting as a training methodology significantly outperformed vertical jump and sprint exercises over an 8 week period in terms of increasing vertical jump ability and 10 metre sprint ability.

The Hoffmann study (2004) of 15 weeks on football players showed O Lifting to have a significant advantage over P Lifting methodology in both vertical leap improvement, and 40 metre sprint times.

Olympic lifting is far more oriented towards explosiveness and agility, where as powerlifting also incorporates those, but has a much higher focus on strength. To excell at one, you must be build for it. You cant excell at both.
Belgiums finest olympic lifter, Tom Goegebuer, does okay'ish at powerlifting. Jeroen Van Heeswijk is competitive in IPF geared competitions, but not in olympic lifting.

However, you can now stop trying to stirr controverse. Powerlifters and Olympic lifters greatly respect eachother.

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In terms of absolute strength there is only one king of exercises and it's not a squat .

Correct. Unless your arms are very short and your torso is very long (aka your bench is amazing), the king of excercises is Deadlift.

Beeing a pretty strong deadlifter, i'm offcourse biassed.

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I hurt my right shoulder forcing it when I couldn't do anymore.

It didn't hurt much that night, but today I woke up with a pain. Any idea or what is the best way to treat it?

@Zach @X

Go to the local building of your religion, and pray you didnt strain the rotator cuff.

After doing that, apply ice periodically

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If we were really tough we'd be pulling off the 3-Bar Pause Squat... Front Squat Bar, Olympic Squat High Bar, and Powerlifting Low Bar. Boom! Beastmode!

On a side note. Overhead squats are a fucking brutal exercise.

Having done many different forms of squatting, i can testify the by far and away most brutal type is the "pauzed squat halfway on the way down" with 70-80% max weight, and 3-4 reps.

A regular pauzed squat in the hole is one thing, cause you are resting in the closed knee position, with calves holding the hamstrics up. "pauze halfway on the way down", means your hamstrics arent supported by anything other then your quadriceps pulling strength.

2 second pauze offcourse

 

[Seven]

Those are some pretty wrong points you are attempting to make there.

First of all, you are nobody. You arent close to mastering a squat, you are not relevant to the comparison. If i would go running backwards and say my calves felt more invovled compared to running normal, its because i'm shitty at running.
If Dimitry Klokov, or Dan Green talk about glutes activation, they actually are a reference. When Boris sheiko who has coached countless gold medal winners in Both olympic and powerlifting says so, he's a reference. When Mike Tutchscherer or Louie Simmons talk about glute activation, they are a reference. One in raw, the other in geared and multigeared powerlifting.

Secondly, i've allready said you shouldnt do low bar squats if your back is not acclimatised for it. And the fat "it kills your hips" means your hipdrive is shit, your hip flexors are weak, and if those arent involved, you cant possible activate your glutes the proper way.

Thirdly, stop talking this utter nonsense cause you have 0 notion of mechanics. High bar squat is flawed because its less of a compound, and works under a less ideal torsion. "healthyer" is even bigger bullshit. Low bar spreads the load over more muscles, reducing the peak stress in the tendons and muscles. High bar puts significantly more strain on both the patella and quadriceps tendon. For the same weight, low bar is safer, if your back isnt behind, wich it never is for a powerlifter.

Fourthly, you are now comparing heavy weight powerlifters, very likely fatass multiply ones, to olympic lifters in weight category's. Olympic lifters dont nearly use their glutes as much, so they'll be developped less.


I'll repeat once more. Lowbar is for people with a strong back or powerlifters, who want to max the squat. High bar is for people who want to squat. front squat is for people who want to improve quadriceps.



One final word on "healthy". Olympic lifters typically dont last much over 30. Because their flexibility decreases, but mostly because their wrist, knee and hip join are destroyed. Powerlifters peak in their mid thirties, and can lift competitively easely in their 40ties, and when on TRT, pretty competitive aswel.

Thing is, if you arent squatting over 160kg, your type of squat doesnt matter.





Olympic lifting is far more oriented towards explosiveness and agility, where as powerlifting also incorporates those, but has a much higher focus on strength. To excell at one, you must be build for it. You cant excell at both.
Belgiums finest olympic lifter, Tom Goegebuer, does okay'ish at powerlifting. Jeroen Van Heeswijk is competitive in IPF geared competitions, but not in olympic lifting.

However, you can now stop trying to stirr controverse. Powerlifters and Olympic lifters greatly respect eachother.

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Correct. Unless your arms are very short and your torso is very long (aka your bench is amazing), the king of excercises is Deadlift.

Beeing a pretty strong deadlifter, i'm offcourse biassed.

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Go to the local building of your religion, and pray you didnt strain the rotator cuff.

After doing that, apply ice periodically

Louie Simmons. Please. You lost pretty much all credibility you had. What next? Rippetoe? These are people who have defined their own squatting styles. They've engineered a style, away from a natural Olympic squat, in order to be able to lift more weight.

And there's nothing wrong with that, but there is something very wrong with what you're taking away from it.

I'd hardly say I am the one stirring controversy. If you read my posts, you'll see that I clearly say both squat styles have their advantages. You on the other hand are claiming some sort of weird superiority on part of the low bar squat, which makes no sense whatsoever.

Why the high bar squat would be less of a compound baffles me. It works the quads, glutes, hamstrings, back and abs. That's pretty much a compound exercise if you ask me.

I'm glad however that we both agree the deadlift is king.

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Look at this and tell me that:
- this guy has no glute development
- this doesn't look like a compound exercise
- there is no sense of inherent fluidity and thus safety in the way he's performing this exercise.

 

[Dostoevsky]

Go to the local building of your religion, and pray you didnt strain the rotator cuff.

After doing that, apply ice periodically

lol, epic.

 

[Post Ironic]

Go to the local building of your religion, and pray you didnt strain the rotator cuff.

After doing that, apply ice periodically

+1 Awesome!

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One final word on "healthy". Olympic lifters typically dont last much over 30. Because their flexibility decreases, but mostly because their wrist, knee and hip join are destroyed. Powerlifters peak in their mid thirties, and can lift competitively easely in their 40ties, and when on TRT, pretty competitive aswel.

Thing is, if you arent squatting over 160kg, your type of squat doesnt matter.





Olympic lifting is far more oriented towards explosiveness and agility, where as powerlifting also incorporates those, but has a much higher focus on strength. To excell at one, you must be build for it. You cant excell at both.
Belgiums finest olympic lifter, Tom Goegebuer, does okay'ish at powerlifting. Jeroen Van Heeswijk is competitive in IPF geared competitions, but not in olympic lifting.

However, you can now stop trying to stirr controverse. Powerlifters and Olympic lifters greatly respect eachother.

Not trying to stir up controversy. I apologize if I came across that way.

I always liked this section of a Fred Hatfield article on Olympic Lifting for athletes:

by Frederick C. Hatfield Ph.D.

While in the Soviet union back in '83, I met Marchuk -- the guy who broke Alexeev's C&J record. He was a very strong dude! We got to talking. I was 242 at the time. He looked at me, at my legs, at my "supposed" WR of 1008 in the squat and said, "NYET! NOT POSSIBLE!" So I bet him a quart of vodka that I could beat him -- all 350 pounds of him. He accepted. His coach secretly came up to me and said, "In Russia, we call powerlifting the "fake" lifts. We call it that because you use supersuits, big belts and giant knee wraps. Can you still beat Marchuk?" I said, "Yep!" He said, "If you do, Marchuk will be SHIT forever! In this gym he is king. If he's beaten at ANYTHING he will be shit!" Then, two days later we went head to head. He barely struggled up with an 800 pound squat -- not bad for a sans wrap sans suit lift, no? So I did it, being out of shape, I figured what the hell! I'd save this poor fat slob's career by not beating him. I did it too -- sans belt, sans suit.

See, it take a highly trained and gifted ATHLETE to excel at ANY sport. Marchuk was a master at the clean & jerk. An athlete in every sense of the word. He and I parted company with Marchuk -- and his coach -- having a new-found respect for powerlifting. They do not call powerlifting the "fake" lifts in Russia any more.

It amazes me to hear lifters squabble over something as spurious as whether Olympic lifting or powerlifting is better or worse than the other, or whether there is merit in athletes from other sports performing the respective lifts from either. The answer is clearly that both have much to offer because each is radically different from the other. All one has to do is read the research literature to understand that there are different forms of strength. There's speed-strength (a combo of starting strength and explosive strength). Then there's both aerobic and anaerobic strength endurance. Then there's limit strength. Powerlifting, for the first time in history, was devised to test one's limit strength. No other sport does.

It just shows how aware Olympic Lifters and PowerLifters are of the benefits of one another's respective sports today, and how much respect there now is between the two groups. It's only the lower echelon amateurs that attack the merits of one another's respective lifting style. I have only respect for powerlifters and the amazing things they can do, so don't think I'm trying to slam powerlifting at all. And as the base phase in training for even athletes, its fantastic. It's when speed strength needs to be developed that Olympic Lifting (read, not full O Lifts but the power variations, power clean, power snatch) comes to the forefront.

One last thing is the knee issue in Olympic Lifters is generally overstated, and overemphasized as the Masters level of the sport is thriving, and filled with former High-level O-lifters. Now, this isn't to say that knee and other joint injuries are not common in O-lifting, it's more so that they are not as common as people suggest according to the research, and even to anecdotal evidence, such as the sheer number still competing in masters level. Hamill, B. (1994, January). Relative Safety of Weightlifting and Weight Training. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research/National Strength and Conditioning Association, 8(1), 53-57. Showed this to some extent, and even more so that olympic weightlifting had far less injuries than almost every other sport, the one exception I recall was swimming.

Aside from this, it's the ballistic rebound at the bottom of a clean or snatch that causes most of the joint problems that occur in a minority of Olympic Lifters, not so much the depth, but the ballistic rebounding at that depth, and a deep front squat, done high bar shouldn't cause this. Even the O-lifts and ballistic rebounding shouldn't cause this if enough maintenance and prep-work is done. The problem being for the very highest level of O-lifters that they need to balance the time needed for such things, with the time required to get to the very heaviest weights.

With regards to wrist problems, they're non-existent if proper wrist conditioning is done. The gymnastics coaches for high level boys teams I worked with for a while, they would do 20-30 minutes of wrist conditioning every single training session with the boys, because of the wrist issues that can develop without from all the impacts and the flexion required. Olympic lifters should be doing the same, but most neglected it until very recently, because it wasn't seen as much of an issue.

Lastly, during the steroid era of the 80s, O-lifters managed to lift competitively right into their late 30s, especially in the heavier weight classes. The problem for this isn't joint destruction though, it's more so what you first mentioned, flexibility, and diminishing returns from speed-strength training, the elasticity of the muscles has lessened, making it much harder to compete at a high level in an exercise that requires taking advantage of tissue viscoelasticity in order to succeed.

 

[JCK]

I squat high bar but I want to stop that shit and front squat instead.