Global Financial Crisis (10 Viewers)

Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
116,996
This sort of treasonous shit cannot continue unless the FED blows up themselves. Ben Bernanke deserves to be hanged for this. If it continues, he better be.

In summary, instead of doing everything in its power to stimulate reserve, and thus cash, accumulation at domestic (US) banks which would in turn encourage lending to US borrowers, the Fed has been conducting yet another stealthy foreign bank rescue operation, which rerouted $600 billion in capital from potential borrowers to insolvent foreign financial institutions in the past 7 months. QE2 was nothing more (or less) than another European bank rescue operation!
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/ex...ign-banks-continues-expense-domestic-economy-
 

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Bjerknes

"Top Economist"
Mar 16, 2004
116,996
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304186404576389632761803982.html

I hear rumors that boiled rope futures are positively booming in Greece. I wonder if I can trade that over here in the US?

In all seriousness though there's nothing to see here that I haven't been talking about for months. Greece, like many other nations (America-cough-cough) made promises it couldn't keep. It allowed people and institutions to lie. It then lied itself, as a government, and hid obligations, and engaged other people in assisting it to lie.

(Gee, you don't think somewhere between $70-100 trillion of promised entitlement spending in the US might be related to this, do you?)

The only reasonable solution is for Greece to tell the EU to go stuff it and default. This probably means leaving the Euro. Yes, that in turn means that all those people who bought Greek bonds and then REPO'd them at par are going to have them shoved down their throat and be forced to come up with the loss, and that in turn might blow up some banks - maybe a lot of banks.

Is there an alternative? Not a reasonable one.

Let's be clear: this path doesn't mean no pain for Greece and the Greek people. On the contrary; the idea that you have a handout from government is a fallacy; government can only take money from one person and give it to another in the long run, so in order to give it you it must first steal it from someone else.

No, the question is not whether Greece is "better off" defaulting or not just like it isn't here in the US. We will default - on the "social obligations" we cannot pay - just as Greece will default.

They're simply choosing the terms of the default, and as the debtor and a sovereign, against which all lending is unsecured, they have every right and in fact duty to do exactly that, lest their citizens lynch Parliament - perhaps literally.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=188310

Yup. Greece should have told the EU to sod off long ago.
 
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Dostoevsky

Dostoevsky

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    Nothing drastic? This sort price movement isn't "drastic"?

    The whole Eurozone, including their major banks, are in trouble. No amount of debased dollars Helicopter Ben can print will save it now.
    :tup:

    Slogan in Athens:

    "Democracy was born here and here will be buried"
    Hehe, it sounds good. On the other hand, not possible and not something Greece alone at this very moment can pull off.

    Interesting to see their debt is 150% of their annual GDP. People ask me why would I be against move to the EU, and this is one of the reasons. They made a big mistake with that move and now it's bitchslaping them. Unless they grand them another credit, they are pretty much doomed. At the moment Serbia's debt is only 40% of our GDP but it's hard for living and it's highly noticeable even at that rate, I can't even imagine how it looks like in Greece.

    Funny thing, Japan's debt is 200% of their GDP, bigger than the one Greece has, or even Portugal. On the other hand, they don't owe it to the EU, nor IMF, but to themselves. They are the only one playing with that system and it turns out great for them.

    Quite tricky situation. If Greece doesn't stop this and doesn't require soon enough, banking system might explode. It will be enough if only one bank collapses, it will lead to massive eruption within the Financial system worldwide.
     

    Cronios

    Juventolog
    Jun 7, 2004
    27,526
    I ll give you some insight from Athens.
    As far as our economy is concerned, there has been some massive and tragic mistakes made from our govs in the past decades.
    We are a country that has no industry, no resources (it is said there is oil under our island but the Turks claim it and wont let us drill it), pretty much nothing to export of profit from, rather than tourism.
    After the wars, we have been destroyed 3 times, we had to borrow money to rebuild our economy and become a developed country.
    But ever since, we have reached a stalemate, since the salaries increased and services has risen, we cannot be a cheap turistic dedication, like other nearby countries.
    Our most precious sculpts are scattered in Europe the biggest museums.

    Up until the eighties, we were forced to pay tribute to the US, at the form of spending the largest part of our GDP to buy weapons from them, so that our safety can be guaranteed.
    Whilst in the same time, we have been paying doses of the loan we took after world wars and despite paying many times the amount we were lent, we are still in debt because the doses could hardly keep up with the interest.
    This happens for decades, it didnt happen yesterday, within a day.

    The two families that dominate the 2 major parties in Greece, were also well aware of this for decades.
    But they have been fooling themselves and the Greek people, because our national policy was bound by the US interests.
    At the 80s the father of the current prime minister, took another huge loan, bound to put in debt the next 2-3 generation of Greeks, but instead of spending it on weapons, like the ones before him, he gave it to the ppl.
    To gain momentary popularity and put us in debt forever.
    Since when, we have in denial, the incompetent and corrupted govs that took over, passed on the situation upon the next one and give the blame to each other.

    But in recent times, as the European Union rises in power, our politics made a pro-European turn, teaming up with the French and German and rapidly losing US favor. They still have influence upon us, as they have proved by canceling the agreement with Putin and the previous gov, for the gas conduct.
    That would help Greece escape from the imposed misery.

    But having partial control is not enough, when we made agreements to buy German submarines and tanks and French aircraft and frigates, the US realized that we have slipped of their control and tried to intimidate us by unleashing the regional bulldog upon us (Turkey invaded one of our islands)
    attack us on national and cultural level, by harming our tourism with delusional claims of terrorism in Greece, every summer etc

    But the European Union is not as weak, as the US assumed.
    Despite the best efforts to delude our influence and ethnic existence
    "The Greek people is hard to govern and this we must hit deep in their civilising foundations. Then, maybe, it shall concede. That is I mean, to knock the language, the religion, the spiritual and historical legacies, to neutralise all their possibilities to develop, to be distinguished, to prevail, so as not to disturb us in the Balkans, not to disturb in the Eastern Mediterranean, in the Middle East, throughout all this crucial region of great strategic significance for us, for USA's policies"
    Kissinger
    We still managed with the help of Europe to keep Turkey out of Europe, as long as they dont respect civil, human and international rights/justice and the Skopians, as long as they are claiming that they are more Greeks than us.
    "Bush vowed that his last act as president would be to help "Macedonia" enter Europe with that stolen name"

    So, here we are now, in 2011, the EU coin and influence is rapidly growing and threatening the US influence, no one countries like Greece, dare to challenge the US policy directly and win Bucharests summits over them.
    In a time that the US economy faces a serious financial crisis, in a time that the $ is rapidly losing ground to the EURO, the US ought to bounce back and do what it is necessary to win the new age financial cold war with Europe.

    And they did it with the typical American way, they have systematically attacked the weakest circle of the chain, undermining the income from the tourism for a few years and then by full blown press war about the debs that were known since the WW.

    The current prime minister is yet another US puppet, born in US, raised in Canada, studied in US, when he came back to Greece, he was speaking Greek with US accent.

    For more than a year now US media are waging a war on the Greek economy,
    with the utter goal to bankrupt us and deal a decisive blow to the EU economy. Make no mistake, if the euro coin fails in Greece, it will fail in international level and even if it survives, its credibility wont.
    One way or another the US wins, they are almost bankrupt anyway, they punish the Greeks for being notty, deal a decisive blow to Euro and at worst case scenario, they all going down, not just the $

    Its genius really. The last part of the plan was to impose the US controlled, IMF to chain Greece and do with her what it did with the rest of its victims.
    Some Greek politics saw the danger and tried to react.
    They somehow even convinced the US puppet, current prime minister to vow that we would prefer bankruptcy to IMF

    The only global power that tried to make a difference then and there and had an interest to make a difference was China.
    They offered Greece a way out with huge loans of minimal interest.But the US puppet managed to delay and abort the deal, by claiming that we dont need it and Europe will help us through it.

    Such a claim was well founded, because France and Germany guaranteed help.
    The gave us a few loans, despite the fact that we were inevitable going for bankruptcy. They have secured that those loans will be refunded on them, by our acquisitions, of German cars, German submarines that float with inclination etc
    And then, when we were made loan dose junkies they made us sign with the devil IMF, so that they share spoils, with each dose, they impose more and more drastic measures.
    Measures that are imposed only in countries that are paying tribute to the ones that occupied them.
    They were forcing us to sell every national agency to German and French banks/companies.

    To take a better control of the situation, the US managed to take out the EU control, by doing what they do best.
    Discredit politicians with sex scandals, now the US want to take their share as well. And now Obama favors IMF efforts to further loan us and put us in debts we will never afford and interests 20x higher of what the Chinese offered.

    And all of a shudden, smth happened than no one expected, the stupid Greek ppl starting rioting vs the 300 mercenary thieves that have been voting for the past 2-3 decades and everybody is in panic again, as their plans are in danger.
    What if we dont pay?
    Europe cannot afford that, they have to loan us anyways to save Euro, its really interesting to see what happens, not to my pl, we are going to suffer anyway, but to the US-EU cold war, the US were losing ground, but with the stross scandal, they are back in business.
    How are they going to negotiate/manipulate their way our of bankruptcy and turn things on their favor, by using the Greek economy card?

    To be continued...
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    116,996
    lol, why yes indeed, it's the United States' fault for the economic situation Greece and the Eurozone find themselves in. It's my fault.

    The reason why Greece is in trouble is because of banksters and the Eurozone itself. The longer you stay in the EU, the longer you'll be debt slaves to a group of international banksters who do not give a damn about the financial security of your country or mine. They will continue buying up all of your assets for pennies on the dollar unless you simply default and restore your own currency that you can control yourselves. All of this debt that Greece currently has is because of promises your government could not keep; promises that were forced upon you because Greece does not have a viable and sustainable economy of its own. They signed up for the EU and gave away their nation's economic sovereignty, tying themselves to a currency that is too strong for the macroeconomic situation in said country.

    Our own central bank is bailing out European banks, so that blows your whole US vs. Europe meme out of the water.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/ex...ign-banks-continues-expense-domestic-economy-

    So no. The financial cold war is not between the US and Europe. It is between sovereign nations and the global banking cartel.

    In a time that the US economy faces a serious financial crisis, in a time that the $ is rapidly losing ground to the EURO, the US ought to bounce back and do what it is necessary to win the new age financial cold war with Europe.
    Our dollar is losing ground to the Euro because our central bank is deliberately debasing our own currency. These banksters are not looking out for my country or yours; they only care about their friends in the global banking cartel, consisting of investment banks, central banks, the IMF and World Bank.

    Once Greece and other Eurozone nations are systematically destroyed, attention will turn to the US for the same reasons as Greece.
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    116,996
    :tup:



    Hehe, it sounds good. On the other hand, not possible and not something Greece alone at this very moment can pull off.

    Interesting to see their debt is 150% of their annual GDP. People ask me why would I be against move to the EU, and this is one of the reasons. They made a big mistake with that move and now it's bitchslaping them. Unless they grand them another credit, they are pretty much doomed. At the moment Serbia's debt is only 40% of our GDP but it's hard for living and it's highly noticeable even at that rate, I can't even imagine how it looks like in Greece.

    Funny thing, Japan's debt is 200% of their GDP, bigger than the one Greece has, or even Portugal. On the other hand, they don't owe it to the EU, nor IMF, but to themselves. They are the only one playing with that system and it turns out great for them.

    Quite tricky situation. If Greece doesn't stop this and doesn't require soon enough, banking system might explode. It will be enough if only one bank collapses, it will lead to massive eruption within the Financial system worldwide.
    I say let the banks explode. These fuckers should have failed in 2008 but all the problems they created are still located everywhere. The problem is that these "too big to fail" financial institutions have so many obligations spread throughout the world any disruption in the credit markets will tank real businesses as well. So basically, investment bankers are terrorists holding the world economy hostage. That's the most important thing to take from this.
     
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    Dostoevsky

    Dostoevsky

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    I say let the banks explode. These fuckers should have failed in 2008 but all the problems they created are still located everywhere. The problem is that these "too big to fail" financial institutions have so many obligations spread throughout the world any disruption in the credit markets will tank real businesses as well. So basically, investment bankers are terrorists holding the world economy hostage. That's the most important thing to take from this.
    That is an interesting view, but what would happen then?

    They might be filthy bankers and do create a lot of mess, but how would be possible for any country to survive without those?
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    116,996
    That is an interesting view, but what would happen then?

    They might be filthy bankers and do create a lot of mess, but how would be possible for any country to survive without those?
    Not all banks are financial terrorists. Conservative savings banks and commercial banks who don't take large risks or place bets in the market like a hedge fund are crucial to our economic system. Without loans, many firms couldn't fund their operations. The bad guys are the large commercial/investment banks who speculate in various markets, create OTC financial derivatives that are in some cases bets against their own clients, sell trash on their balance sheets to unsuspecting customers, and are backed by the government and central bank.

    Some of these corporations are so huge that they can destroy entire economies through sucking money out of the system. Their profits must come from somewhere; usually sucked out of capital formation or from other businesses who actually strive to create something. So investment bankers like Goldman Sachs serve no purpose in the economy other than to siphon off capital from the economy for profit.
     

    Cronios

    Juventolog
    Jun 7, 2004
    27,526
    It is true about the bankers, but i do believe that those are tied to some national interests and that they do require political influence.
    They certainly can manipulate a part of the US senator and influence the US policy at a certain level.
    I dont believe that Obama is behind this, but like your self, i dont believe thats its Obama the one that is actually in charge of whats happening in your country.

    There are ppl with financial interests, that can manipulate your gov in an extend, this can go as far as doing what the did on Stross, but i dont think that they can go as far as bankrupting the US, conflicts of interests will certainly appear there and the overall balance of powers will avoid it.
    I believe that the US economy is safe from them, of course they wont hesitate to harm it (because they are connected in an extend with them), if it goes against their interests, but its safer to play bankrupt games, with far away lands, esp in weak and powerless countries.

    Time will tell who the target really is... it is said that Portugal and Spain our next.
    The way i see it, if the US manages to bankrupts many EU countries and manage to find a way to make a profit from it, the get a double win, by strengthening themselves and by weakening their direct financial competitors.
    As long as Germany and France lose money trying to salvage Greece, Portugal and Spain from bankruptcy, their economies grow weaker and eventually, they will decide to abandon the European coin.
    And once they do that, the ties between European countries will become loose and it will be easier to divide and conquer them.

    PS: Whats the situation in the US Andy, when do you think that we are going to see any development there?
    When the game there unfolds, it will be easier to see whats happening.
     
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    Dostoevsky

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    The bad guys are the large commercial/investment banks who speculate in various markets, create OTC financial derivatives that are in some cases bets against their own clients, sell trash on their balance sheets to unsuspecting customers, and are backed by the government and central bank.
    Where did you get the idea of them creating OTC? And why would they do that, when they have their own large portfolio? I don't see why would it be easier to do anything via OTC and why would they create such.

    Some of these corporations are so huge that they can destroy entire economies through sucking money out of the system.
    Is there any backing to this theory? It does seem interesting but I still don't see it being that easy to describe, at least that 'sucking money out of the system' part.

    Their profits must come from somewhere; usually sucked out of capital formation or from other businesses who actually strive to create something. So investment bankers like Goldman Sachs serve no purpose in the economy other than to siphon off capital from the economy for profit.
    Like any financial institution, they do have profits. But unlike savings banks and commercial banks these deal with much bigger risk on the market and get bigger profits. They also grab the difference between active and passive interest rate.
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    116,996
    It is true about the bankers, but i do believe that those are tied to some national interests and that they do require political influence.
    They certainly can manipulate a part of the US senator and influence the US policy at a certain level.
    I dont believe that Obama is behind this, but like your self, i dont believe thats its Obama the one that is actually in charge of whats happening in your country.
    Well of course you need politicians to be in the pockets of bankers. That's how they receive backstops from government and go unscathed in the regulatory process. They go hand in hand. One can consider Jean-Claude Trichet a politician when comes down to it, a guy whose job is to make us believe the Euro is strong and in everyone's best interest to accept.


    There are ppl with financial interests, that can manipulate your gov in an extend, this can go as far as doing what the did on Stross, but i dont think that they can go as far as bankrupting the US, conflicts of interests will certainly appear there and the overall balance of powers will avoid it.

    I believe that the US economy is safe from them, of course they wont hesitate to harm it (because they are connected in an extend with them), if it goes against their interests, but its safer to play bankrupt games, with far away lands, esp in weak and powerless countries.
    There's too many incorrect points to cover here. But the overall theme is that they are driving us towards default because the government is taking on more debt than it can repay and our own central bank is undermining our currency. Currency implosion = economic catastrophe.

    The US already has the largest gap between the rich and poor out of all developed nations, and the banksters are DIRECTLY responsible for that. They offshored our production and tax us via inflation. Who is the only winner in an inflationary scenario? The rich.

    So you need to rethink this, Cron.

    Time will tell who the target really is... it is said that Portugal and Spain our next.
    They are targets because their debt situation is out of control. And the Euro currency is one of the problems for this.

    The way i see it, if the US manages to bankrupts many EU countries and manage to find a way to make a profit from it, the get a double win, by strengthening themselves and by weakening their direct financial competitors.
    As long as Germany and France lose money trying to salvage Greece, Portugal and Spain from bankruptcy, their economies grow weaker and eventually, they will decide to abandon the European coin.
    And once they do that, the ties between European countries will become loose and it will be easier to divide and conquer them.
    I don't think you're quite understanding the situation. The banksters, financial powerhouses like George Soros, and those that you perceive as American interests are actually pushing to bail out Greece, not have them default. So in fact, they are trying to keep the current game running -- which includes trying to keep the Euro together.

    What would be best for the United States and not the banking cartel? Well, obviously undermining the EURO and promoting a strong dollar policy while Europe implodes, but that's not what is happening. Our central bank is causing the dollar to fall in value by purchasing US Treasuries and bailing out EUROPEAN banks. So I'm sorry Cron, but your theory is incorrect. It's you and me and the rest of us (the middle class) against the banksters.

    PS: Whats the situation in the US Andy, when do you think that we are going to see any development there?
    When the game there unfolds, it will be easier to see whats happening.
    The game is already unfolding. There was no real economic recovery whatsoever since 2008. The only reason we have put up positive GDP numbers over the past two years is because of government spending (GDP= Y = C + I + G(government spending) + (X − M)) and increasing asset prices. The government borrowed and spent money we don't have, facilitated by the Federal Reserve purchasing our own bonds, an act that devalues our dollar and puts our credit rating at risk.

    What needed to happen in 2008 consisted of allowing banks to fail and clearing the debt from the system, but the government chose not to because they couldn't allow their bankster buddies to go under. Three years later and what do we have? Same unemployment situation, higher prices, larger government, little private sector job creation, and all sorts of systemic risk in the banking system.

    What's next? Well, the government can't keep spending money it doesn't have unless the Fed destroys our currency, which is possible. Debt deflation is a monster but a necessary one, and the markets usually end up resolving that. We have a lot of pain to incur.

    Where did you get the idea of them creating OTC? And why would they do that, when they have their own large portfolio? I don't see why would it be easier to do anything via OTC and why would they create such.
    Over the counter derivatives include interest rate swaps and credit default swaps. This is a very unregulated market because there is no price disclosure between the two counter-parties. What's the point of going for OTC products? Well, first off you don't need an actual exchange, but most importantly, you don't need to put up the actual collateral for these derivatives.

    In an exchange, you have standardized contracts and margin accounts. Anyone who participates in a commodity exchange is ordered to back their account by putting up the cash before they trade. If they are in a losing trade and their account falls beneath the requirements to trade, they are issued a margin call which is basically the exchange telling them they need to fund their account to continue. So the great thing about an exchange is that it's regulated, you must provide cash to cover your bets, and everyone knows what the prices are. This is not the case in the OTC markets.

    So why would banksters choose OTC over exchange-traded derivatives? No necessity to put forth the collateral to back your bets. I have no idea why regulators thought this was a good idea. Well no, not exactly, the banks are the regulators. Half of the SEC, New York Fed and CFTC are Goldman Sachs grads.


    Is there any backing to this theory? It does seem interesting but I still don't see it being that easy to describe, at least that 'sucking money out of the system' part.
    These two articles seem to summarize the argument nicely.

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/219...uld-destroy-the-entire-world-financial-system

    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/fi...vatives-interview-yves-smith-naked-capitalism

    Basically, the total value of all derivatives worldwide is somewhere around 1.5 Quadrillion dollars. So theoretically, there isn't enough money worldwide to cover all the payouts from these said derivatives if they all blow up at once. The investment banks have written or own most of these things, so they really do hold the world economy hostage. They are financial terrorists without a doubt.
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
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    Good stuff. Worth reading the full articles.

    As I explained in 2008:

    Well-known Austrian economist Friedrich von Hayek wrote:

    “Emergencies” have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have eroded.

    [Obama's former chief of staff] Rahm Emanuel famously said:

    Never let a serious crisis go to waste. What I mean by that is it’s an opportunity to do things you couldn’t do before.

    Naomi Klein documented in the Shock Doctrine that the Neoliberals and Chicago school followers advocated a kind of “disaster capitalism”. Specifically, whenever a natural, economic, war-related, or other disaster strikes, these folks pounce and use the opportunity to quickly impose a brand of economic policy which benefits the elite at the cost of everyone else (by increasing unemployment, pushing the cost of essential goods through the roof, and otherwise increasing poverty), while people are still in shock and before they can react.
    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011...ped-just-like-greece-and-other-countries.html

    Economics is today what religion was in older historical times and totemic myth was in tribal times. Is there some way that we can euthanise the ritualistic elements of economic theory? Yes, I think there is.

    In policy circles today economists play the role of the court-priest. They deploy their esoteric and impenetrable 'knowledge’ to tell policymakers what they should and should not do. To constrain economists to simply explain how the system works is to give them a role closer to that of the lawyer. The policymaker consults a lawyer to figure out what he or she can or cannot do and then makes a decision from there. Similarly, he or she might consult the economist, if the latter was seen as an operational role rather than as that of a seer.
    http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/06/philip-pilkington-economics-as-metaphysics-and-morals.html
     
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    Dostoevsky

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    The bad guys are the large commercial/investment banks who speculate in various markets
    Aye, back on this. IIRC there was a law in 1933 that has forbidden banks to do this, or to make huge risk business or at least there was a range and a line which shouldn't be crossed. It's either commercial banks or investment that existed too, there were no universal banks that deal with both, unlike nowadays. The law was changed in 2000 or in 2001 and it's where many things went wrong.

    Over the counter derivatives include interest rate swaps and credit default swaps. This is a very unregulated market because there is no price disclosure between the two counter-parties. What's the point of going for OTC products? Well, first off you don't need an actual exchange, but most importantly, you don't need to put up the actual collateral for these derivatives.

    In an exchange, you have standardized contracts and margin accounts. Anyone who participates in a commodity exchange is ordered to back their account by putting up the cash before they trade. If they are in a losing trade and their account falls beneath the requirements to trade, they are issued a margin call which is basically the exchange telling them they need to fund their account to continue. So the great thing about an exchange is that it's regulated, you must provide cash to cover your bets, and everyone knows what the prices are. This is not the case in the OTC markets.

    So why would banksters choose OTC over exchange-traded derivatives? No necessity to put forth the collateral to back your bets. I have no idea why regulators thought this was a good idea. Well no, not exactly, the banks are the regulators. Half of the SEC, New York Fed and CFTC are Goldman Sachs grads.
    OTC is a toll for manipulation, that's for sure. Marketing alone was one of the main reasons the US fall apart in 2008. Your public advert was related to new flats and now every American should have one, and can have one. Later on they used OTC in order to make a swap deal out of it. Not just that, but you had 'friendly' agency that placed AAA on those like on bonds, so people would chase after them. When they all realized how it's only a worthless piece of paper and how they didn't have money to pay for it - it started collapsing and huge losses were made.

    Meh, that's bullshit. Yahoo news are always full of crap.

    Your country is fucked up and it's sadly a fact. Those huge debts are increasing and it's the only number it's changing and the only one that's 'bigger'. You're not going to turn into Indonesia and work for no money. After all, America was the one that created slavery system.

    I personally don't see the way out of this. Debts made are huge and private banks are still taking the full benefit from it, but they are just creating more and a bigger debts.

    The bigger market is, the bigger are debts. After the collapse in the 80s and starting from Basel I regulations and higher banker measures it started even worse.
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    116,996
    Aye, back on this. IIRC there was a law in 1933 that has forbidden banks to do this, or to make huge risk business or at least there was a range and a line which shouldn't be crossed. It's either commercial banks or investment that existed too, there were no universal banks that deal with both, unlike nowadays. The law was changed in 2000 or in 2001 and it's where many things went wrong.
    Indeed, the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 by Clinton's administration in 1999. That allowed all these commercial banks to speculate with bank deposits, which then created bubbles in real estate and the derivatives market.

    Contrary to popular belief, Clinton wasn't such a great President after all.

    OTC is a toll for manipulation, that's for sure. Marketing alone was one of the main reasons the US fall apart in 2008. Your public advert was related to new flats and now every American should have one, and can have one. Later on they used OTC in order to make a swap deal out of it. Not just that, but you had 'friendly' agency that placed AAA on those like on bonds, so people would chase after them. When they all realized how it's only a worthless piece of paper and how they didn't have money to pay for it - it started collapsing and huge losses were made.
    The ratings agencies are part of the banking cartel. They basically rated all sorts of junk bonds as solid investments, obviously to keep the housing bubble running. So that is true, marketing also played a key role. The whole propaganda of "housing prices can never decline" crap fooled a ton of people and that should be considered fraud. That's the problem with our economy right now, it's nothing more than a conglomeration of fraud and Ponzi schemes where the only solution is prosecution and allowing the shit to collapse. It requires a depression.

    Meh, that's bullshit. Yahoo news are always full of crap.
    I don't think it's bullshit. Some won't work for that, but if you're desperate enough, you might.

    Your country is fucked up and it's sadly a fact. Those huge debts are increasing and it's the only number it's changing and the only one that's 'bigger'. You're not going to turn into Indonesia and work for no money. After all, America was the one that created slavery system.
    Slavery existed centuries before the US ever existed. If you're talking about debt slavery, then OK. That's what the current system boils down to -- a country filled with consumers encouraged to spend even when their credit card debt is through the roof, they owe 50,000 dollars in student loans, and all their savings are being debased away into oblivion.

    I personally don't see the way out of this. Debts made are huge and private banks are still taking the full benefit from it, but they are just creating more and a bigger debts.
    You got it, there isn't any way out of it besides clearing the debt from the system. That most certainly includes government debt. But since we have become a welfare state, politicians are elected based on what they are going to spend on their constituents. The underlying Keynesian ideals of spend, spend, spend during recessions is a dangerous ideology during debt-led recessions and when the government has not run up budget surpluses during times of economic expansion (which is what Keynes preached, so the economists now are more like Faux-Keynesians).

    So fighting debt with more debt is completely asinine and why many folks compare the government's actions to taking a blow torch to a house fire. It's complete idiocy, has never worked, and won't work now.
     

    IrishZebra

    Western Imperialist
    Jun 18, 2006
    23,327
    Borrowing your way out of Debt becomes even more retarded when you consider the inherent inefficiences and clientalism within governments themselves. I have yet to see an economy that can't generate at least a significant stimulus merely from trimming the bureaucratic fat. Look at Ireland, Civil and Public Servants get paid too high as do people on unemployment assistance (~$240 a week not including their free rents and payments for slut mothers) not to mention the mess of our health system. We could have broken even for the pat 2 years if our government had the balls to take the tough decisions...

    Raping the middle to appease the bottom and top is common, but it can only go so far IMO
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    116,996
    Borrowing your way out of Debt becomes even more retarded when you consider the inherent inefficiences and clientalism within governments themselves. I have yet to see an economy that can't generate at least a significant stimulus merely from trimming the bureaucratic fat. Look at Ireland, Civil and Public Servants get paid too high as do people on unemployment assistance (~$240 a week not including their free rents and payments for slut mothers) not to mention the mess of our health system. We could have broken even for the pat 2 years if our government had the balls to take the tough decisions...

    Raping the middle to appease the bottom and top is common, but it can only go so far IMO
    But this is the problem with government intervention into markets. They simply allocate taxpayer money or borrowed capital to spend on their bought and paid for interests. The TARP program, sponsored by the US Treasury, bailed out all the largest financial institutions in the country when all of their graduates work for the government and the regulators. Clowns like Hank Paulson talk about the concept of moral hazard in financial markets, but everything the government does in regulating business allows for exactly that... the creation of moral hazard. But only for the benefit of their buddies and subsequently the big guys, of course.

    The merger of state and corporate powers is called Fascism.
     

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