Global Financial Crisis (30 Viewers)

swag

L'autista
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Sep 23, 2003
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#21
Yeah I guess you have a point.

What do you think it's going to happen with all the :money: ?It was Andy or Canardo who mentioned that people are investing into gold and silver already.
The front page of the NY Times business section today has an article on the death of the Russian oligarch. Apparently many of them are heavily leveraged, and Russian corporations are likely going to have to pony up $128 billion this year alone in repayments. So Russia isn't looking too rosy, IMO.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/business/08shift.html

I wonder about where all the money is. It's in private investments and not public markets, I believe. Just what that is...?

Funny, because in 2001 when I saw the last recession and noticed that real estate prices went up worldwide instead of down, that was the first sign that people were funneling stock market money into real estate and just moving the bubble over into another asset class.

Even so, the Dow Jones is all leverage anyway: we project market caps of businesses based on the thin veneer of shares traded and extrapolate for the rest. So you could argue a lot of that money was never there to begin with.

Still, I think this creates a world scenario where some smart financial thinkers can cause nations to rise to prominence while others languish. It's an open race as far as I'm concerned. Everyone is saddled with problems.
 

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Dostoevsky

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    The front page of the NY Times business section today has an article on the death of the Russian oligarch. Apparently many of them are heavily leveraged, and Russian corporations are likely going to have to pony up $128 billion this year alone in repayments. So Russia isn't looking too rosy, IMO.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/business/08shift.html

    I wonder about where all the money is. It's in private investments and not public markets, I believe. Just what that is...?

    Funny, because in 2001 when I saw the last recession and noticed that real estate prices went up worldwide instead of down, that was the first sign that people were funneling stock market money into real estate and just moving the bubble over into another asset class.

    Even so, the Dow Jones is all leverage anyway: we project market caps of businesses based on the thin veneer of shares traded and extrapolate for the rest. So you could argue a lot of that money was never there to begin with.

    Still, I think this creates a world scenario where some smart financial thinkers can cause nations to rise to prominence while others languish. It's an open race as far as I'm concerned. Everyone is saddled with problems.
    Thanks for that article. :tup: I had no idea it was like over there.

    Hidden exploration of alternative energy might be it?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_energy ,maybe there's something behind it.I mean,it can be private in this case but I just don't see anything else that big of that risk just to withdraw all the money and possibly destroy so many countries because of it.

    I think pretty much everything started in 2007 but I still think media is trying to hide it.IMO they are just talking about one part of the money that has been or will be lost because it can be a real mess,crime raise and everything.Food is very expensive right now.Price are much higher than the last year and salaries are even lower.

    I don't really see it as an open race for those so called thinkers because they will invest it with what?Or they will sell it to who?The loss of money is just too huge and sadly it can be even worse.

    This will just break some countries that will not be able to struggle with it.Many will fail whatever the case,like USA.Many countries will struggle with it for much longer,like Serbia,I suppose.

    There is some talk over here that we might not work on Friday just to save some money and less people would lose their jobs.I just think it can be even worse with it though.
     

    swag

    L'autista
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    Sep 23, 2003
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    #25
    Thanks for that article. :tup: I had no idea it was like over there.
    We'll know how bad it's gotten over there when Chelsea decides to sell Deco to Juve for no money down and taking 2 million shares of Yugraneft off their books.

    Hidden exploration of alternative energy might be it?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_energy ,maybe there's something behind it.I mean,it can be private in this case but I just don't see anything else that big of that risk just to withdraw all the money and possibly destroy so many countries because of it.
    I still question whether a lot of that money ever existed in the first place. With heavily leveraged economies, a lot of money is presumed value that can shift from billions to zero with the exchange of a few million dollars worth of shares.

    I think pretty much everything started in 2007
    I think there's a reason why you're seeing the DJIA down to 1997 levels. This goes way before 2007. I would suggest this goes back to the financial practices of the 1990s that were only sustained because of a massive shift in asset classes from public stocks to real estate and mortgages in the early 2000s.

    There is some talk over here that we might not work on Friday just to save some money and less people would lose their jobs.I just think it can be even worse with it though.
    Furloughs are probably going to be common along with layoffs. Here in America I've already heard of retail shopping centers that are opening later and closing earlier to keep the hours of their employees down for a lack of sales.
     
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    Dostoevsky

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    We'll know how bad it's gotten over there when Chelsea decides to sell Deco to Juve for no money down and taking 2 million shares of Yugraneft off their books.
    :D While you're at it I think it will be interesting to see this summer's transfer market.To see if there will he Sheik's in actions with ala Kaka transfers or we'll see some clubs (Chelsea) selling their players to recover some money.Abramovic lost a lot because of all this.And do you think this can affect World Cup that's supposed to happen the next year?

    I still question whether a lot of that money ever existed in the first place. With heavily leveraged economies, a lot of money is presumed value that can shift from billions to zero with the exchange of a few million dollars worth of shares.
    Don't know why but I'm almost certain that there was money.Many banks tried to inject millions into their budget but it failed.At least I heard China and someone else did it that way.It's easy to get to a financial collapse because if people withdraw all the money from banks pretty much everything goes down.Just look at GM and some car industries and how they are chocking.

    I think there's a reason why you're seeing the DJIA down to 1997 levels. This goes way before 2007. I would suggest this goes back to the financial practices of the 1990s that were only sustained because of a massive shift in asset classes from public stocks to real estate and mortgages in the early 2000s.
    Oh well I think it started at 1995 or so but I think it recovered and it's just happening again.

    Furloughs are probably going to be common along with layoffs. Here in America I've already heard of retail shopping centers that are opening later and closing earlier to keep the hours of their employees down for a lack of sales.
    Sounds like an idea but I don't see it that positive though.
     

    swag

    L'autista
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    Sep 23, 2003
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    #27
    :D While you're at it I think it will be interesting to see this summer's transfer market.To see if there will he Sheik's in actions with ala Kaka transfers or we'll see some clubs (Chelsea) selling their players to recover some money.Abramovic lost a lot because of all this.And do you think this can affect World Cup that's supposed to happen the next year?
    Oh, yes -- and forgot to add another unsustainable class of assets in the "old" economy:

    - EPL as the MFL, Mercenary Football League: FAIL!
    - Oligarchs from Russia and the UAE jacking up the transfer markets: FAIL!

    :D

    Don't know why but I'm almost certain that there was money.Many banks tried to inject millions into their budget but it failed.At least I heard China and someone else did it that way.It's easy to get to a financial collapse because if people withdraw all the money from banks pretty much everything goes down.Just look at GM and some car industries and how they are chocking.
    But it's important to separate the choking businesses and industries that were going to fail anyway, and this economy is just a catalyst. GM is a perfect example. Newspapers another. Starbucks another still.

    Oh well I think it started at 1995 or so but I think it recovered and it's just happening again.
    I think the 2003-or-so recovery was merely an illusion fabricated temporarily by shifting one asset class bubble to another. It bought time, but it wouldn't prevent the inevitable.
     
    Jan 7, 2004
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    #28
    Sorry to hear that.

    But join the club. I swear, we're gonna have our own support group thread on these forums before long. :coffee:

    suckers. the governmental departments that deal in my industry are all busy trying to spend all the "stimulus" money they are getting. bes helped himself to an 8 month stint :spliff::xmas::party::excited::cool2::dazed::stuckup::nerd:
     
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    Dostoevsky

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    Here's one interesting article since China have been mentioned.

    BEIJING, China (CNN) -- When China's legislature opens its annual session this week, the focus will be on jobs, the economy and social stability.

    Every year, over 3,000 delegates to the National People's Congress meet in Beijing to review draft laws and vote on government budget and policies. Delegates come from central and local governments, the military and police, including ethnic minority representatives, who typically show up in their traditional costumes.

    In the past, the NPC has been dismissed as a "flower-vase," a largely ceremonial rubber-stamp parliament which merely endorses Communist Party decisions. But in recent years, it has seen robust discussion and debate.

    This year, the number one issue will be how to survive the global economic crisis and keep China's economy growing. As the global economic crisis cascades into China, Communist Party leaders fear a spike in unemployment could trigger social unrest and snowball into a political crisis.

    "The NPC meeting this year will be all about the economy," says Drew Thompson, a China analyst at the Nixon Center in Washington. "Surviving the global financial crisis will depend on the effectiveness of the stimulus effort, and most importantly, keeping employment numbers up."

    The unemployment picture already looks grim. The government officially says over 20 million migrants have lost jobs, laid off from thousands of factories which have closed down due to the steep drop in overseas demand for Chinese products. Analysts believe more jobs will be lost. This makes it more difficult for recent college graduates to find jobs.

    Workers disgruntled over abrupt layoffs or unpaid arrears have staged scattered protests. Some of them have turned violent. Growing labor unrest alarms China's leaders who believe that social stability is necessary to improve the nation's struggling economy. Says NPC delegate Wang Diangui, "We need to ensure employment for migrants and new college graduates."

    Premier Wen Jiabao says China is bracing up to meet the challenge.

    "We'll do whatever it takes for to fight the crisis," he declared last weekend during his first-ever online chat with the Chinese Internet users.

    "We must strengthen confidence in the face of the crisis and be ready to take firmer and stronger action when necessary."

    China has already approved a $586 billion dollar stimulus plan, and there's talk of more. Wen is expected to flesh out details of the stimulus plan when he delivers the government work report, the equivalent of an annual state-of-the-nation address, at the NPC opening session on Thursday.

    Wen cautions not to expect quick results. The global financial crisis has not yet hit rock bottom, he warns, and "we must fully realize we are facing a long-term and arduous task." (coming from China this sounds serious)

    Economic analysts agree. "They have a lot of work," says Michael Pettis, an economics professor at Peking University. "China needs to make the transition from an export-oriented economy to a domestic market economy, and the historic evidence suggests that it is very, very difficult, and it takes a long time."

    Wen is expected to propose an economic growth target of about 8 percent, modest compared to the double-digit growth rates that China has chalked up in recent years. Some economists believe China needs to maintain an 8 percent growth rate to keep unemployment in check.


    The legislature will also consider a landmark Social Security legislation that would make health care, unemployment and retirement benefits universal, at least on paper. Such a system is deemed essential to instill a sense of long-term security among Chinese and entice them to consume more and save less. But experts believe it will have not served as a short-term economic stimulant.

    Explains Peking University's Michael Pettis, "Even if they could put in the world's greatest security system and the world's greatest health services tomorrow, it will still take many many years of testing the system before it has the credibility to change household consumption patterns."

    Other major budget initiatives include spending increases in public education, housing, environmental protection and energy conservation. Also on the agenda, more money for the modernization of China's military, a newly promulgated food safety law, and proposed legislation that would require officials to publicly declare their assets, part of the long-term campaign to combat graft and corruption. "Corruption can be prevented fundamentally only when power is restricted," Wen said in answer to questions on corruption.

    Analysts say the success of China's stimulus package also depends on strict supervision of spending.

    "Chinese leaders, particularly the local officials attending the NPC, will have to closely oversee the projects benefiting from Beijing's stimulus spending," says The Nixon Center's Drew Thompson.

    "If they do a good job and the money is not wasted, jobs will be created and China will likely weather the financial crisis. If corruption and waste undermines the central government's plans, those leaders will increasingly have to deal with civil unrest."

    In the short term, China's leaders are hunkering down to curb social unrest in a year filled with sensitive anniversaries. In March, there is the 50th anniversary of an aborted uprising in Tibet. In June, there is the 20th anniversary of the crackdown in Tiananmen Square. Perhaps Beijing leaders can heave a sigh of relief only after October 1, when China celebrates the 60th anniversary of the founding of the People's Republic with a grand military parade.
    Meantime, this year's NPC congress is adopting austerity as its theme. The session will last for only nine days, making it the shortest in recent years. Mainland Chinese delegates will be barred from staying in five-star hotels and their food budget will be capped to 100 yuan per day per person.


    Even if they have some product,for the sake of it's own countries people won't buy and even China might go down so don't count they are going to be on the top.I think it will be a total mess but I'm afraid some people don't realise it and especially here in my country.Gonverment even says that something like that isn't going to happen in Serbia :rolleyes: and yet some people believe it's true.
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,603
    #30
    Yeah I think bad things are going to happen to you guys.I think (no offence) that you're in deep shit with all those debts you have so far.I bet people are going to blame Obama. :rolleyes: God forbit if inflactions come...I was just a kid when one hyperinflation happened here in Serbia and it's really scary.You even struggle to buy 1 if you have some money.But this time it can be even worse since it's gonna hit whole world.
    I see China in the top 3 while I think Russia might take over the first place if that happens.
    People are already blaming Obama for the 20% drop in the stock market since the turn of the New Year. The blame is solely aimed at him, which is extremely unfair. I criticize Obama because he has brought in the wrong people, similar people under Bush, and has totally lied to us throughout his campaign. But he shouldn't be blamed for all this debt that existed prior to his atrocious additions to it.

    Hyperinflation in a sour economy is pretty much like a doomsday scenario. I bet it was very rough in Serbia, but then again you guys are more used to rough times, unlike Americans who have been spoiled all these years because people loaned us money we no longer can repay. That's why if we do see things getting rough and country collapses, Americans will go crazy because we aren't used to anything but pampering.

    When people have nothing else to lose, they lose it. Gerald Celente is right about that.

    But Russia honestly doesn't have squat going for it besides oil (and who's buying that these days with all the surpluses sitting idle in tankers?) and a sinister shadow leader.
    Yeah I guess you have a point.

    What do you think it's going to happen with all the :money: ?It was Andy or Canardo who mentioned that people are investing into gold and silver already.
    Russia has a lot of gold if I recall correctly, but they are being idiots because they have been buying US treasuries.

    I think the countries that have the most gold and least debt will get out of this situation in the best way. The IMF may have no choice but to sell gold and issue a new currency or basket of currencies in the future because all these fiat currencies are going to be obliterated, so watch for perhaps even a world currency or basket of currencies. I'd like to say it is all conspiracy theory (one world currency, one world government, the Illuminati... is it all coming true?! :p) but substantial changes will need to be implemented as everything continues to unwind. And I hope the IMF does sell all its gold so that they will destroy themselves and we will finally be able to say goodbye to that useless organization.

    Job losses will continue to mount, the money supply will be so huge dollars will be swirling around in the streets, and the bull market that is commodities will continue to soar in what will probably be known as the Greater Depression. Hopefully not, but unfortunately that's what seems to be taking place.
     

    Bjerknes

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    #31
    China will be fine compared to debtor nations. They just have to stop giving us free money and build themselves a strong Asia. If they allow this world Ponzi Scheme to continue and keep sending the US money we can't repay, they are truly a bunch of idiots.

    The whole world economy has turned into a huge Ponzi Scheme with little naturally occurring Ponzi Schemes in the form of bubbles within, created by the Federal Reserve.
     

    swag

    L'autista
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    Sep 23, 2003
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    #32
    suckers. the governmental departments that deal in my industry are all busy trying to spend all the "stimulus" money they are getting. bes helped himself to an 8 month stint :spliff::xmas::party::excited::cool2::dazed::stuckup::nerd:
    You sound amply stimulated there, DB. :D

    Here's one interesting article since China have been mentioned.
    China's exploding urban vs. rural inequalities are coming to a head with this economy. The mostly uncovered story is all the migrant workers who have been laid off from closed factories in southern and eastern China.

    It's a political powder keg.
     

    Hambon

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    Apr 22, 2005
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    #33
    Yeah I guess you have a point.

    What do you think it's going to happen with all the :money: ?It was Andy or Canardo who mentioned that people are investing into gold and silver already.
    Looks like they will be tanking soon as well....

    go out and get a gun...start a militia :D
     
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    Dostoevsky

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    People are already blaming Obama for the 20% drop in the stock market since the turn of the New Year. The blame is solely aimed at him, which is extremely unfair. I criticize Obama because he has brought in the wrong people, similar people under Bush, and has totally lied to us throughout his campaign. But he shouldn't be blamed for all this debt that existed prior to his atrocious additions to it.

    Hyperinflation in a sour economy is pretty much like a doomsday scenario. I bet it was very rough in Serbia, but then again you guys are more used to rough times, unlike Americans who have been spoiled all these years because people loaned us money we no longer can repay. That's why if we do see things getting rough and country collapses, Americans will go crazy because we aren't used to anything but pampering.

    When people have nothing else to lose, they lose it. Gerald Celente is right about that.
    I had no idea but I knew it will be something like that.I agree,I don't think Obama should take any blame despite the wrong people under him.I don't think he should be blamed because he brought wrong people but because he was just elected at the worst moment.Now,whatever happens *(and it can't be anything good) people will put all the blame on him.And in the end he will have to eat the shit someone else already left I'm afraid.

    I agree with this totally and yeah it was very rough over here and on the top of it there were like 200-400 of your military aircrafts making circles over Serbia. :p It's all true,we're pretty much used to all that kind of stuff already and I also think some people (like in America) will commit many sucides and some big % will go crazy because it's not easy to get used from all that,dare I say,luxery to hyperinflations that even kills you pshycially.You know,you get saleries but from it you can just buy 2 cheap things and it's very hard.I really hope you,nor anyone else expiriense something like that.
     

    Hambon

    Lion of the Desert
    Apr 22, 2005
    8,073
    #35
    I want HALF!!


    Take it from a guy who finds himself unemployed for the first time in 17 years because of it...

    All this talk about "how will we ever recover from this tragedy?" Sure, a lot of people are hurt and affected. But damn, ask that of the Germans and Japanese after they had the shit bombed out of their countries in WWII. Things could always be worse, and people have found a way out. :pado:
    Sorry to hear that man...

    No one would have thought they would ever made such a come back... I just cant seem to see the US riding this one out ...:xfinger:
     
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    Dostoevsky

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    China's exploding urban vs. rural inequalities are coming to a head with this economy. The mostly uncovered story is all the migrant workers who have been laid off from closed factories in southern and eastern China.

    It's a political powder keg.
    Maybe.We're yet to see how it goes...I think they will suffer,not as much as some other countries but they will suffer a lot.

    Looks like they will be tanking soon as well....

    go out and get a gun...start a militia :D
    Hey,who knows. :D
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
    111,603
    #39
    I had no idea but I knew it will be something like that.I agree,I don't think Obama should take any blame despite the wrong people under him.I don't think he should be blamed because he brought wrong people but because he was just elected at the worst moment.Now,whatever happens *(and it can't be anything good) people will put all the blame on him.And in the end he will have to eat the shit someone else already left I'm afraid.
    I'm just hoping it is not construed into a race issue, or a religion issue, with the typical moronic neo-cons and racists running around trying to ignite another race war. Things will get pretty bad and Barack Hussein Obama, the black "muslim", will be the poster boy.

    Don't have to state the possible outrage by the dumbasses across America.

    I agree with this totally and yeah it was very rough over here and on the top of it there were like 200-400 of your military aircrafts making circles over Serbia. :p It's all true,we're pretty much used to all that kind of stuff already and I also think some people (like in America) will commit many sucides and some big % will go crazy because it's not easy to get used from all that,dare I say,luxery to hyperinflations that even kills you pshycially.You know,you get saleries but from it you can just buy 2 cheap things and it's very hard.I really hope you,nor anyone else expiriense something like that.
    Hey, those Navy jets could get us out of this depression with the military industrial complex starting another war. Target: Iran. Perhaps if we destroy an innocent nation and a few thousand soldier lives, we could ignite the economy. As Hilary said, never waste a good crisis. But who knows, maybe those jets will be flying over the United States one day, but only with Chinese and North American Union flags painted on the side. :pumpkin:
     

    Bjerknes

    "Top Economist"
    Mar 16, 2004
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    #40
    An interesting topic, that affects all of us, more or less...
    I hope Obama really has a plan, he is our best hope...
    He ain't got no plan. The only plan they have is print money and devalue the currency. They've got nothing and will just make the problem worse. The Keynesian approach has never worked, so don't expect it to work now.
     

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