Gleison Bremer (20 Viewers)

[Clamarc]

I won't call it poor squad planning for now. I think they just don't have the money to buy everything.
We're still trying to recuperate from Ronaldo's mega wage and Paratici errors.
We can judge them more fairly after 1 or 2 more mercato

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[zizinho]

Ogbonna

Benatia was always injured and didnt spend much time with us anyway. Cacares was a multi-position player kinda like Danilo is right now. Rugani has actually been around the longest.

Point still stands our bench nor the bench of any of our competitors especially in Serie A have any quality. Yet we are levels below everyone else and thats not because Napoli and Atalnata's 2nd and 3rd CB options are greater players than Rugani

When we didnt have a starting caliber CB we actually suffered always. 2015 we had Barza on the bench, 4312 Bonucci Chiellini starters
2016 352, Rugani and injury prone Caceres on the bench, BBC starters
2017 4231, Benatia and Barza on the bench, Chiellini Bonucci starters
2018 433, Benatia Chiellini starters, Rugani and Barza on the bench
2019 433, Bonucci Chiellini starters, Rugani and Barza on the bench

2016 Chiellini missed Bayern tie due to injury
2018 Benatia missed Real first leg
2019 Chiellini missed Ajax tie due injury

 

[Hist]

When we didnt have a starting caliber CB we actually suffered always. 2015 we had Barza on the bench, 4312 Bonucci Chiellini starters
2016 352, Rugani and injury prone Caceres on the bench, BBC starters
2017 4231, Benatia and Barza on the bench, Chiellini Bonucci starters
2018 433, Benatia Chiellini starters, Rugani and Barza on the bench
2019 433, Bonucci Chiellini starters, Rugani and Barza on the bench

2016 Chiellini missed Bayern tie due to injury
2018 Benatia missed Real first leg
2019 Chiellini missed Ajax tie due injury

Way many more factors affected these results much more than Chiellini or Benatia being unavailabe. Ofc its evident that "suffered" in the past meant not reaching CL semis/finals not the shit show we are seeing now.

Having or not having Caceres level players on our bench (which I am not sure is very different from Rugani level anyway) isnt why we are losing to Monza, and Haifa and languishing so far in the league. Thats a "look at the bird over there!" kind of distraction

- - - Updated - - -

I won't call it poor squad planning for now. I think they just don't have the money to buy everything.
We're still trying to recuperate from Ronaldo's mega wage and Paratici errors.
We can judge them more fairly after 1 or 2 more mercato

The poor planning is not as much in the players they bought or sold and much more in the coaches they hired. Sarri, Pirlo, Allegri, sticking with Allegri after last season and somehow he is still here. Way way more than who our 3rd CB is.

Dusan, Bremer, De Ligt, Ronaldo, Kulu all were good and exciting individual transfers but none of them mattered because they messed up the bigger call on who will be coach.

 

[U Picciriddu]

Ogbonna

Benatia was always injured and didnt spend much time with us anyway. Cacares was a multi-position player kinda like Danilo is right now. Rugani has actually been around the longest.

Point still stands our bench nor the bench of any of our competitors especially in Serie A have any quality. Yet we are levels below everyone else and thats not because Napoli and Atalnata's 2nd and 3rd CB options are greater players than Rugani

Benatia had a good run when Bonucci was away, but make a mistake in that game where Koulibaly scored and eventually caused the penalty against Real, if I remember correctly. Then Bonucci returned, Allegri ignored him and he went away.

 

[Hust]

Feels like a punishment, doesn't it?

Destiny.

 

[zizinho]

Way many more factors affected these results much more than Chiellini or Benatia being unavailabe. Ofc its evident that "suffered" in the past meant not reaching CL semis/finals not the shit show we are seeing now.

Having or not having Caceres level players on our bench (which I am not sure is very different from Rugani level anyway) isnt why we are losing to Monza, and Haifa and languishing so far in the league. Thats a "look at the bird over there!" kind of distraction

- - - Updated - - -



The poor planning is not as much in the players they bought or sold and much more in the coaches they hired. Sarri, Pirlo, Allegri, sticking with Allegri after last season and somehow he is still here. Way way more than who our 3rd CB is.

Dusan, Bremer, De Ligt, Ronaldo, Kulu all were good and exciting individual transfers but none of them mattered because they messed up the bigger call on who will be coach.

Im not even sure you watched those games, but one could see from the goals conceded that we were missing Chiellini big time. Rugani isnt a sufficient replacement and Barza-Bonucci wasnt complimenting each other well when they played. Against Real we missed our only great mid in 2018 in Pjanic, and we (had to) started MDS who was even worse than finished Licht. Barza was done, good enough for Serie A fodder due to experience and class, but way past it at that level. You could have seen the difference in the return leg in Madrid with Benatia back, Pjanic controling the midfield and Licht subbing in for MDS. And Mandzukic starting. No way we concede 6 against Bayern with Chiellini, or 3 vs Ajax. Also that final vs Barca was winnable too, sadly he was out. But the point is, whenever we had depth in defense we did well. This season Bonucci is finished (was finished for a while), Gatti showed he is not for this level, and Rugani is Rugani. Our best lineup is with 2 fullbacks Danilo and AS flanking Bremer, the rest i dont know if i would let start at Torino.

Youre not sure if Caceres is any better than Rugani? When did you start watching Juve? 2017? I wasnt talking about those 2 games, but gave an example of how depth (or lack of) in defense made a difference for us before. And thats not the reason we lost those games but can be seen as part of it. If we had De Ligt - Bremer with Chiellini as a sub, or more competent fullbacks atleast, i think we dont concede some of the goals we do. And it automatically improves our position in the table from attrocious to decent

 

[Hist]

Im not even sure you watched those games, but one could see from the goals conceded that we were missing Chiellini big time. Rugani isnt a sufficient replacement and Barza-Bonucci wasnt complimenting each other well when they played. Against Real we missed our only great mid in 2018 in Pjanic, and we (had to) started MDS who was even worse than finished Licht. Barza was done, good enough for Serie A fodder due to experience and class, but way past it at that level. You could have seen the difference in the return leg in Madrid with Benatia back, Pjanic controling the midfield and Licht subbing in for MDS. And Mandzukic starting. No way we concede 6 against Bayern with Chiellini, or 3 vs Ajax. Also that final vs Barca was winnable too, sadly he was out. But the point is, whenever we had depth in defense we did well. This season Bonucci is finished (was finished for a while), Gatti showed he is not for this level, and Rugani is Rugani. Our best lineup is with 2 fullbacks Danilo and AS flanking Bremer, the rest i dont know if i would let start at Torino.

Youre not sure if Caceres is any better than Rugani? When did you start watching Juve? 2017? I wasnt talking about those 2 games, but gave an example of how depth (or lack of) in defense made a difference for us before. And thats not the reason we lost those games but can be seen as part of it. If we had De Ligt - Bremer with Chiellini as a sub, or more competent fullbacks atleast, i think we dont concede some of the goals we do. And it automatically improves our position in the table from attrocious to decent

You're missing the point. I am not disputing that one injury more or less can influence a close game. When two high functioning teams go head to head the fine margins do ofcourse matter because this is a close contest.

The point is that at the moment we are not anywhere in the contest for the margins to matter in any meaningful way, and so focusing on whether 2nd or 3rd bench options are good enough is a distraction. This team is not sitting eighth, 6th points below Roma and heading to Europa league from an easy group because of Rugani not being at Cacares level.

Let me put it this way, its like a United fan blaming their management for not signing a better backup CB than Lindelof as why United wasnt competing with City last season.

Not Ole's management, or the decision to keep Ole or hire Ralf or perhaps the decisions behind key signings in midfield or attack. No...its Lindelof

 

[zizinho]

You're missing the point. I am not disputing that one injury more or less can influence a close game. When two high functioning teams go head to head the fine margins do ofcourse matter because this is a close contest.

The point is that at the moment we are not anywhere in the contest for the margins to matter in any meaningful way, and so focusing on whether 2nd or 3rd bench options are good enough is a distraction. This team is not sitting eighth, 6th points below Roma and heading to Europa league from an easy group because of Rugani not being at Cacares level.

Let me put it this way, its like a United fan blaming their management for not signing a better backup CB than Lindelof as why United wasnt competing with City last season.

Not Ole's management, or the decision to keep Ole or hire Ralf or perhaps the decisions behind key signings in midfield or attack. No...its Lindelof

Caceres would be a starter at this team in his prime, Rugani is far from that. If Rugani actually was Caceres level that would be a huge help right now. One injury to Bremer and our defense looks Fiorentina level. We switched to a 3 man backline because our brazilian fullbacks are better as wide CBs now. And our other fullback MDS is better off never starting. Cuads and Kostic have no alternative at wingback as well. Bonucci looks finished to anyone who saw 5 minutes of him this season. Rugani was never good enough for this level, not even as a sub and Gatti managed to look even worse in the time he played. We simply neglected the defense while we wasted time on Paredes when we already had Rovella and Locatelli, and Fagioli as 3rd choice regista. I mean if we had atleast one starting caliber CB next to Bremer, we could get away with his absence somehow. Or one more wingback to rest Cuads and Kostic (Cambiaso who can play both sides comes to mind, loaned for no reason). But lets see next game if his absence will matter that much or not, i think there is money to be won on us conceding and people here calling Bonucci a moron

 

[Hist]

Caceres would be a starter at this team in his prime, Rugani is far from that. If Rugani actually was Caceres level that would be a huge help right now. One injury to Bremer and our defense looks Fiorentina level. We switched to a 3 man backline because our brazilian fullbacks are better as wide CBs now. And our other fullback MDS is better off never starting. Cuads and Kostic have no alternative at wingback as well. Bonucci looks finished to anyone who saw 5 minutes of him this season. Rugani was never good enough for this level, not even as a sub and Gatti managed to look even worse in the time he played. We simply neglected the defense while we wasted time on Paredes when we already had Rovella and Locatelli, and Fagioli as 3rd choice regista. I mean if we had atleast one starting caliber CB next to Bremer, we could get away with his absence somehow. Or one more wingback to rest Cuads and Kostic (Cambiaso who can play both sides comes to mind, loaned for no reason). But lets see next game if his absence will matter that much or not, i think there is money to be won on us conceding and people here calling Bonucci a moron

how many of these same players perform with their national team and before/after they’ve left Juve is telling of where the main problem lies.

Bonucci is past his prime given his age but somehow he can do great for Italy and shit with us again and again. Same for basically all the others.

i just hope the cancer is removed before the damage to dusans development becomes irreversible

 

[zizinho]

how many of these same players perform with their national team and before/after they’ve left Juve is telling of where the main problem lies.

Bonucci is past his prime given his age but somehow he can do great for Italy and shit with us again and again. Same for basically all the others.

i just hope the cancer is removed before the damage to dusans development becomes irreversible

Great with Italy when and where? 2 games of the NL? Or this summer v vs Argentina? I think we have a different understanding of great if you were impressed by Bonucci in his 3 sole NT apps this year. Who are basically all the others?

 

[Mike-e-y]

Ogbonna

Benatia was always injured and didnt spend much time with us anyway. Cacares was a multi-position player kinda like Danilo is right now. Rugani has actually been around the longest.

Point still stands our bench nor the bench of any of our competitors especially in Serie A have any quality. Yet we are levels below everyone else and thats not because Napoli and Atalnata's 2nd and 3rd CB options are greater players than Rugani

Of course we have other problems. But the depth of our squad and the lack of attention given this summer to key area of reinforcement like LB, RB and CB areas is footballing negligence. Bonucci should not be a starter in this team, he should be our third choice CB, that’s my issue.. same with Sandro.

When you spend 70 out of 90 minutes playing in your own half like we do then you need a much better defence than we have and having seen how poor we were last season the directors only move was to sell our most promising CB to sign another promising CB while letting Bonucci, Sandro and Danilo continue to decline while renewing De Sciglio

 

[Hist]

Great with Italy when and where? 2 games of the NL? Or this summer v vs Argentina? I think we have a different understanding of great if you were impressed by Bonucci in his 3 sole NT apps this year. Who are basically all the others?

What made Bonucci special has always been his ball playing abilities, helping the team build out/distributing from the back and spraying passes to create goals with the occasional goal or assist here and there. He was never very strong physically nor really strong in 1:1s. He thrives in an organized defensive unit where he can use his passing range to distribute from the back.

That has not changed. He still sucks in 1:1s but as shown with Italy yes in the Nations League and in the the last Euros as well he still has it and can be a key part of a solid defense and a very effective team while simultaneously being shit with us.

I wonder why. Maybe just maybe a ball-playing CB who is all about passing is of no use if there is no offensive system of play and the team barely holds possession against the Monzas and Salrentina's of the world thanks to dinoball.

 

[.zero]

He pulled up to the awards ceremony yesterday with a yella bone

 

[zizinho]

What made Bonucci special has always been his ball playing abilities, helping the team build out/distributing from the back and spraying passes to create goals with the occasional goal or assist here and there. He was never very strong physically nor really strong in 1:1s. He thrives in an organized defensive unit where he can use his passing range to distribute from the back.

That has not changed. He still sucks in 1:1s but as shown with Italy yes in the Nations League and in the the last Euros as well he still has it and can be a key part of a solid defense and a very effective team while simultaneously being shit with us.

I wonder why. Maybe just maybe a ball-playing CB who is all about passing is of no use if there is no offensive system of play and the team barely holds possession against the Monzas and Salrentina's of the world thanks to dinoball.

Last euros was more than a year ago. Chiellini was even better then and he's in MLS now. Nations league was 2 games, hardly a sample size. If you wanna use them then also use the game vs Argentina few months ago. At his best Bonucci was a decent defender too, not only a ball player. But he looks finished and caught off guard and out of position often. He's slowing down physically as well. He's way past his best days and I struggle to see us doing well with him as a permanent starter going forward, no matter the coach.

You might want to know what you're talking about before you speak. We held majority possession against Salernitana and the play was most in their half, yet we conceded 2 goals with Bonucci playing. Against Monza he didn't play, we were with 10 men most of the game, Gatti lost his man on 3-4 occasions before the goal already, and we still "only" conceded one. Maybe if he was someone that can command a defense? Which a defender of his experience should be able to do by now? Maybe we wouldn't concede 4 out of our 7 on Serie A with him as opposed to 3 without him (even if his alternative are Serie B Gatti and Rugani), and all of our 11 in the CL with him vs zero in the 67 minutes he didn't play? His ball playing isn't as necessary when you play AS, Bremer, Danilo together, all guys that can pass and dribble forward. Only thing Bonucci has which they lack is the long ball, but there isn't that much space upfront now and quick strikers to exploit it so it's redundant.

As for your struggling to keep possession argument, hard to do so with McKennie and Rabiot as mezzalas, and our 2 creative wingers playing less than 3-4 full games so far combined. You can blame that on Allegri for not trusting guys like Fagioli or Miretti enough over a barely footballer McK, or not giving Soule enough chances when Kean plays every game, that's fair. His player selection is one of the main points to criticize him on. But once guys like Rabiot, McKennie, Kean are on the pitch already, and you expect them to play quick one twos, or to create space for Kostic and Cuads on the flanks to exploit, well, you're setting yourself up for disappointment

 

[Hist]

Last euros was more than a year ago. Chiellini was even better then and he's in MLS now. Nations league was 2 games, hardly a sample size. If you wanna use them then also use the game vs Argentina few months ago. At his best Bonucci was a decent defender too, not only a ball player. But he looks finished and caught off guard and out of position often. He's slowing down physically as well. He's way past his best days and I struggle to see us doing well with him as a permanent starter going forward, no matter the coach.

You might want to know what you're talking about before you speak. We held majority possession against Salernitana and the play was most in their half, yet we conceded 2 goals with Bonucci playing. Against Monza he didn't play, we were with 10 men most of the game, Gatti lost his man on 3-4 occasions before the goal already, and we still "only" conceded one. Maybe if he was someone that can command a defense? Which a defender of his experience should be able to do by now? Maybe we wouldn't concede 4 out of our 7 on Serie A with him as opposed to 3 without him (even if his alternative are Serie B Gatti and Rugani), and all of our 11 in the CL with him vs zero in the 67 minutes he didn't play? His ball playing isn't as necessary when you play AS, Bremer, Danilo together, all guys that can pass and dribble forward. Only thing Bonucci has which they lack is the long ball, but there isn't that much space upfront now and quick strikers to exploit it so it's redundant.

As for your struggling to keep possession argument, hard to do so with McKennie and Rabiot as mezzalas, and our 2 creative wingers playing less than 3-4 full games so far combined. You can blame that on Allegri for not trusting guys like Fagioli or Miretti enough over a barely footballer McK, or not giving Soule enough chances when Kean plays every game, that's fair. His player selection is one of the main points to criticize him on. But once guys like Rabiot, McKennie, Kean are on the pitch already, and you expect them to play quick one twos, or to create space for Kostic and Cuads on the flanks to exploit, well, you're setting yourself up for disappointment

Bonuccis ball playing abilities and passing range is miles ahead Danilo AS or anyone else we haveHe is one of the best in the world at it while those are just regular CBs. There’s plenty of Bonucci compilations of his passing range go check it out if you need a refresher.

looks finished, off guard and out of position. Yes the defensive unit is not functioning and it’s exposing his weaknesses even further. The supposed world class CB De Ligt too looked like a headless chicken and today Gatti, Bremer, Danilo all look shitty as well. Our Defense hasn’t functioned well since the end of Allegri start of Sarri era and progressively got worse. Bonucci has looked bad for us even during the Euros in which he was very solid. He has looked finished for us but good for Italy for a long time now not just this season and judging by recent performances for Italy he again looks good there.

I totally blame Allegri for our lack of passing/possession play. Do we really need to go over his coaching style not having patterns of play agai and rehash the million times he have said so himself?

Pirlo had lesser players in midfield and did better. Let’s not pretend he didn’t get Locatelli, Zackaria, Paredes on top of what Pirlo had and did zilch with them. Bentacur can suddenly do well in Spurs midfield next to freaking hojbrerg and winks when lord dinosaur. Let’s also not pretend that the same dinosaur ball is wasn’t on display towards the end of his first tenure and got him the sack with totally different players

 

[zizinho]

Bonuccis ball playing abilities and passing range is miles ahead Danilo AS or anyone else we haveHe is one of the best in the world at it while those are just regular CBs. There’s plenty of Bonucci compilations of his passing range go check it out if you need a refresher.

looks finished, off guard and out of position. Yes the defensive unit is not functioning and it’s exposing his weaknesses even further. The supposed world class CB De Ligt too looked like a headless chicken and today Gatti, Bremer, Danilo all look shitty as well. Our Defense hasn’t functioned well since the end of Allegri start of Sarri era and progressively got worse. Bonucci has looked bad for us even during the Euros in which he was very solid. He has looked finished for us but good for Italy for a long time now not just this season and judging by recent performances for Italy he again looks good there.

I totally blame Allegri for our lack of passing/possession play. Do we really need to go over his coaching style not having patterns of play agai and rehash the million times he have said so himself?

Pirlo had lesser players in midfield and did better. Let’s not pretend he didn’t get Locatelli, Zackaria, Paredes on top of what Pirlo had and did zilch with them. Bentacur can suddenly do well in Spurs midfield next to freaking hojbrerg and winks when lord dinosaur. Let’s also not pretend that the same dinosaur ball is wasn’t on display towards the end of his first tenure and got him the sack with totally different players

I don't need refreshers, I watch us play weekly sadly. And I never said that's the case, I said he's less needed if we play 352 with the Brazilian trio at the back, and his long balls aren't as important since we don't have numbers up front or speedy attackers that can get in behind the CBs. Vlahovic isn't a classic target man either. You're just saying stuff which I already dealt with.

De Ligt looked like a headless chicken? Next to Bonucci maybe? Does that have to do with it? Bremer and Danilo look shitty? Stop saying random stuff. Our defense got worse when our WC players started leaving/declined. One man can't make a defense, but he can break it tho. Count how many times Bonucci has done something stupid to make us concede against the momentum of play. Szczesny? AS? You can't just make claims that they will suddenly work in a different system based on nothing.

You mention Zakaria as a example of midfielder who can keep possession? Locatelli looked fine when he was in form and Paredes just arrived like a month ago, doesn't even play regularly (yet). Again, if you expect possession football with Locatelli, Rabiot, McKennie midfield, 2 CFs upfront, wingbacks that don't create space for themselves (anymore, in case of Cuadrado), you're setting yourself up for disappointment. The problem is why these guys play (partly Allegri not trusting youngsters who are technically superior, partly injuries to our creativity guys like Pogba, Chiesa, Di Maria), and once they are sitting on the bench 90% of the time we will see improvement in the final 3rd. Because Pogba, Di Maria, Chiesa will create chances for themselves and for others no matter who the coach is. They will draw the defense to them no matter who the coach is. They will create space for others no matter who the coach is. McKennie wont do any of that, Rabiot won't do any of that, Cuadrado can't do it anymore. Fagioli maybe could, Soule too, Miretti, but we don't see them play often enough

 

[Hust]

This guy injury prone now or what? We already broke him and it's not even winter break yet.

 

[zizinho]

This guy injury prone now or what? We already broke him and it's not even winter break yet.

It's always the good ones. You'll never see Rugani or Bumucci injury prone, but it has to be our best CB

 

[Hust]

It's always the good ones. You'll never see Rugani or Bumucci injury prone, but it has to be our best CB

But has he been good? Not sure I think he has been

 

[Stevie]

But has he been good? Not sure I think he has been

Allegri