Giuseppe Marotta (141 Viewers)

[Hist]

I've thought for at least two years that Marotta > Moggi. But just giving credit to Marotta wouldn't make sense. Agnelli and Paratici are among the very best in the business in their respective roles. The trio of Agnelli, Marotta, Paratici > "the triade," of which Moggi was the brain.

Moggi was very good at making good deals. We see that with current Juve too, but this Juve also has a better vision and thinks more long-term (without neglecting short-term goals) than Moggi's Juve did. Moggi focused mainly on short-term goals. We invest a lot more in youth now. And treating players in the best possible way, creating a family environment (the professionalism and the hard work mantra were there before), and even small things like the J College, etc get the best out of Juve players and send a good message to potential signings.

Yes but Moggi did not have to think too far ahead because we had the financial might to bring in any established star that we wished for and there was no ffp rules that forces clubs to balance their books and avoid financial risks. There was no real point to look too far in the future when we could always buy the best players in the world like Nedved, thuram, Viera etc... When we did look for the future, Moggi could buy the neymars of the old days in Ibra and Mutu.

Beppe is operating in a much more financially strict environment and so he has to plan for the future and look for opportunities all the time. Moggi could go for coaches in the price range of Capello and Lippi (Modern day equivalents of Pep, Ancelotti, Mou). Beppe had to try with unknowns like DN, Conte, Allegri. It is essentially managing different clubs altogether. Its comparing apples to oranges. Its comparing managing Apple with managing Toshiba. The challenges, the budgets and the goals are vastly different. Even Galliani looked like a brilliant director when he had financial might to buy anyone he wished for. Its a whole different story working on a budget towards lesser targets.


If you want to compare Moggi with someone, you should compare him with Galliani, Moratti, Perez and whoever runs United because they share similar business environments and similar goals. It is obvious that Moggi is the best of that lot followed by Galliani, Perez, UTD guy and then Moratti.

The only management of that level of financial might that I would say betters Moggi is the Barca management since the Ronaldinho era (when Barca became rich as fuck too). They have no problems making big signings of established stars (Ibra, Fabregas, Henry, Suarez, Turan etc..) and when they do look for young players on the market they go for ones with crazy potential like Neymar. I would say that Barca's management (and only Barca) has been superior to Moggi's based on results and club status (3CL wins and default favorites every year in all competitions). They have done brilliant work from the academy to transfers to finding the right coaches to deliver great results. Thats comparing apples to apples.

If you want to compare Beppe to someone, then you compare him to those who had similar resources, restrictions and goals and then see where they took their clubs. That includes post ffp Galliani, Inter's new manager, Roma's management, ATM's management, Spurs management, and so on. On that comparison I give the nod to Beppe despite ATM's superior performances because I doubt ATM can stay as competitive when Simeone departs. Both Beppe and the ATM guys are brilliant in the market but Beppe struck Gold twice with coach hiring (Conte then Allegri) while the ATM guys havent had to change coaches yet. If ATM find a simeone replacement and stay as good then ATM would get the nod but until then Juve looks like the more stable club that can continue growing without its coach.

 

Buy on AliExpress.com

[Zacheryah]

 

[Hust]

*UTD Guy

 

[pavluska]

Yeah, well, if you can make a gourmet omelet without breaking a few eggs, let me know

And no, powdered eggs and egg substitutes do not count.

The great Mourinho once said the same thing ("no heggs, no homelettes"), but are you calling Marotta an egg substitute?




@Hist, I would've preferred if your post were a paragraph shorter. Usually, I skip posts that are longer than four decent-sized paragraphs or so.

Yes but Moggi did not have to think too far ahead because we had the financial might to bring in any established star that we wished for

We were richer obviously, but no, we didn't. We never had the financial might to sign any established star for big bucks in the history of our club.

and there was no ffp rules that forces clubs to balance their books and avoid financial risks.

There was no FFP, but we balanced our books back then too. We didn't have a sugardaddy, and we were self-sustained.

There was no real point to look too far in the future when we could always buy the best players in the world like Nedved, thuram, Viera etc...

We had to sell Zidane to buy Nedved and Thuram. We had to do the same before Moggi era too. We often sold top players in their late 20s.

We signed Vieira when he was deteriorating. Vieira wasn't at his best in his last season with Arsenal. That continued at Juve. He was good for us, but that Vieira wasn't the best, prime Vieira.

When we did look for the future, Moggi could buy the neymars of the old days in Ibra and Mutu.

Ibra and Mutu were much cheaper than Neymar. Neymar's transfer fee almost broke the record. Ibra's fee wasn't anywhere close to the record at that time (Zidane).

Beppe is operating in a much more financially strict environment and so he has to plan for the future and look for opportunities all the time.

This is true. Current mgmt had more need to invest in young talents because the only way we could catch up with the big boys in Europe was to sign young talents before they do, wait for them to realize their talent, and look for "opportunities" like Tevez and Pirlo. We couldn't compete with them with $ and, for the most part, still can't.

Moggi also had financial restrictions, not to Marotta's level before this season, but he couldn't just go out and buy anyone like you're thinking. In addition to Juventinata, we also needed a better youth system to circumvent that. Moggi's financial constraints/freedom aren't too different from what Marotta's was this season and will be next season. And not investing in future (besides starting the bureau work on stadium in mid-90s) is definitely a negative you can point out in Moggi. Even if Juve were the richest (we weren't) and he could buy anyone (he couldn't), not planning for the distant future is never a good thing. That was the GM model.

Even Galliani looked like a brilliant director when he had financial might to buy anyone he wished for. Its a whole different story working on a budget towards lesser targets.

This argument doesn't make Moggi look very good.

If you want to compare Moggi with someone, you should compare him with Galliani, Moratti, Perez and whoever runs United because they share similar business environments and similar goals. It is obvious that Moggi is the best of that lot followed by Galliani, Perez, UTD guy and then Moratti.

This does. And we all agree with this.

The only management of that level of financial might that I would say betters Moggi is the Barca management since the Ronaldinho era (when Barca became rich as $#@! too). They have no problems making big signings of established stars (Ibra, Fabregas, Henry, Suarez, Turan etc..) and when they do look for young players on the market they go for ones with crazy potential like Neymar. I would say that Barca's management (and only Barca) has been superior to Moggi's based on results and club status (3CL wins and default favorites every year in all competitions). They have done brilliant work from the academy to transfers to finding the right coaches to deliver great results.

Barca became this good after Calciopoli, post-Moggi. When what Cruyff started bore fruit with La Masia players in conjunction with Pep as the coach.

Thats comparing apples to apples.

If you want to compare Beppe to someone, then you compare him to those who had similar resources, restrictions and goals and then see where they took their clubs. That includes post ffp Galliani, Inter's new manager, Roma's management, ATM's management, Spurs management, and so on. On that comparison I give the nod to Beppe despite ATM's superior performances because I doubt ATM can stay as competitive when Simeone departs. Both Beppe and the ATM guys are brilliant in the market but Beppe struck Gold twice with coach hiring (Conte then Allegri) while the ATM guys havent had to change coaches yet. If ATM find a simeone replacement and stay as good then ATM would get the nod but until then Juve looks like the more stable club that can continue growing without its coach.

I think you missed the topic of our discussion. We were comparing two successful Juve directors (despite their diff situations and challenges). Juve only. Not where each of them ranked/rank in their era in Europe.

If you want to compare Marotta with other GMs/directors in Europe at present, then yes, I agree. I've thought so for a while. I'm glad you stopped picking on him and realized this.

But it'd be more accurate to look at our mgmt as a whole. Agnelli and Paratici play huge roles too. Hiring coaches is the decision of both Agnelli and Marotta, not just Marotta. In general, Agnelli takes care of the financial side of things, and Marotta is the head of everything that involves players. Paratici, who reports to Marotta, is in charge of scouting and deserves the accolades for our excellent scouting.

And yes, Simeone is amazing. Has been the best coach in the world since 2013-14. Some in Atletico's mgmt are thugs btw.

 

[Hist]

The great Mourinho once said the same thing ("no heggs, no homelettes"), but are you calling Marotta an egg substitute?




@Hist, I would've preferred if your post were a paragraph shorter. Usually, I skip posts that are longer than four decent-sized paragraphs or so.



We were richer obviously, but no, we didn't. We never had the financial might to sign any established star for big bucks in the history of our club.



There was no FFP, but we balanced our books back then too. We didn't have a sugardaddy, and we were self-sustained.



We had to sell Zidane to buy Nedved and Thuram. We had to do the same before Moggi era too. We often sold top players in their late 20s.

We signed Vieira when he was deteriorating. Vieira wasn't at his best in his last season with Arsenal. That continued at Juve. He was good for us, but that Vieira wasn't the best, prime Vieira.



Ibra and Mutu were much cheaper than Neymar. Neymar's transfer fee almost broke the record. Ibra's fee wasn't anywhere close to the record at that time (Zidane).



This is true. Current mgmt had more need to invest in young talents because the only way we could catch up with the big boys in Europe was to sign young talents before they do, wait for them to realize their talent, and look for "opportunities" like Tevez and Pirlo. We couldn't compete with them with $ and, for the most part, still can't.

Moggi also had financial restrictions, not to Marotta's level before this season, but he couldn't just go out and buy anyone like you're thinking. In addition to Juventinata, we also needed a better youth system to circumvent that. Moggi's financial constraints/freedom aren't too different from what Marotta's was this season and will be next season. And not investing in future (besides starting the bureau work on stadium in mid-90s) is definitely a negative you can point out in Moggi. Even if Juve were the richest (we weren't) and he could buy anyone (he couldn't), not planning for the distant future is never a good thing. That was the GM model.



This argument doesn't make Moggi look very good.



This does. And we all agree with this.



Barca became this good after Calciopoli, post-Moggi. When what Cruyff started bore fruit with La Masia players in conjunction with Pep as the coach.



I think you missed the topic of our discussion. We were comparing two successful Juve directors (despite their diff situations and challenges). Juve only. Not where each of them ranked/rank in their era in Europe.

If you want to compare Marotta with other GMs/directors in Europe at present, then yes, I agree. I've thought so for a while. I'm glad you stopped picking on him and realized this.

But it'd be more accurate to look at our mgmt as a whole. Agnelli and Paratici play huge roles too. Hiring coaches is the decision of both Agnelli and Marotta, not just Marotta. In general, Agnelli takes care of the financial side of things, and Marotta is the head of everything that involves players. Paratici, who reports to Marotta, is in charge of scouting and deserves the accolades for our excellent scouting.

And yes, Simeone is amazing. Has been the best coach in the world since 2013-14. Some in Atletico's mgmt are thugs btw.

I'll try to make this shorter

I did not misread the debate I knew you guys were comparing Beppe with Moggi rather than with the other managers of clubs of the same size in that era. My argument was that your debate is comparing apple to oranges because its an entirely different Juventus with different restrictions, finances and targets. This is analogous (imperfect ofcourse) to comparing Chelsea management pre-russian money to post-russian money. Different finances, different club standing in the world and different targets for the club. Thats why you should compare each to other directors that manage clubs of the same size.

We were the second richest team in Europe for 3-4 years running (2000-2004) and were consistently in the top 5 from the late 90s all the way until Calciopoli happened. Throughout that era there was very small differences in wealth between us and the the richest club on the list. We didn't used to spend 200 mills per summer because rich clubs back then were nothing compared to now and player prices reflected that. The 2nd richest team in 2000 (Juve) made 173.5 mill while today the club with the same ranking (Barca) makes 651.8 mill This link has the rankings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League#1997.E2.80.9398

Moreover, I never picked on Marotta and always acknowledged him as a great director (by Marotta I include Agnelli and Paratici and staff) but I also point to his mistakes.

Finally, Galliani was a brilliant director back in the day, bringing Milan incredible success. He is the kind of manager that can do wonders with big finances but as history now shows, he can't do shit on a tight budget. There probably are managers that are the reverse, capable of doing very well on a budget, bringing the most out of the little finances available but can't build a full world dominating team when they have lots of money. We see the same with coaches who can do wonders with mediocre players and get them to play at 110% but then can only get 70% out of actual world class players. Enrique for instance seems to be a coach that can do wonders with a world class squad but does nothing notable when managing a mediocre squad. This is again why you guys are comparing apples to oranges by debating Beppe Vs. Moggi.

 

[Amer]

Premium Sport.

- - - Updated - - -

Juventus will “negotiate with Real Madrid for Alvaro Morata and other situations,” while Beppe Marotta gave updates on Juan Cuadrado, Isco, Leonardo Bonucci and Andre Gomes.

The Bianconeri director general sat down with Mediaset Premium to discuss their transfer strategy after winning a fifth consecutive Scudetto.

“For Morata’s future we have to wait for the outcome of tonight’s Champions League semi-final between Manchester City and Real Madrid.

“Within the next three weeks, we need to reach a definitive agreement. If it’s positive, we’ll be happy, if it’s negative then we have to evaluate new operations.

“He is valued at a few dozen million Euros, but I don’t want to talk about figures because we’ll talk in a wider context that could include other situations too.”

The Merengues have a buy-back clause for Morata, but is there truth in suggestions Juve could get Isco as part of a deal?

“Isco is an excellent player, but I think they will want to hold on very tight to him.”

There is a similar situation in place with Chelsea and Cuadrado, who is on loan without an option to buy.

“We will soon set an appointment with Chelsea to understand their intentions regarding Cuadrado.”

Players linked with Juve this summer include Andre Gomes of Valencia and Monaco’s Bernardo Silva.

“Gomes is an important player with potential and would suit a top club. Bernardo Silva is versatile and has important qualities, but we never negotiated for him. Having said all that, it’s still early days.”

Bonucci was praised by Manchester City’s next Coach Pep Guardiola and has a strong bond with Antonio Conte, but a move to England is highly unlikely.

“Bonucci is a marvellous player and I think he intends to play in Turin for many more years. He arrived under the radar, but today is a leader after earning an important role in the team. For a side that is aiming for big objectives, players like him are fundamental.”

Max Allegri had been a prime candidate for the Chelsea job, which eventually went to Conte, but has committed his future to Juventus.

“Signing the contract is a formality,” continued Marotta. “His deal is set to expire in 2017 and we want to extend it by at least a year.

“There is a daily rapport with him based on transparency and honesty. We never even suspected he would leave.

“This era will come to an end, but we are starting our third year with him. It’s natural to accept the rapport will continue.”

- - - Updated - - -

Part 1/2 of Beppe show

2/2

Damn it's not even the end of the season and Marotta is firing on all cylinders.

 

[pavluska]

I'll try to make this shorter

I'd love to see you try and tweet, lol.

Different finances, different club standing in the world and different targets for the club. Thats why you should compare each to other directors that manage clubs of the same size.

That makes no sense. You could argue comparing Marotta with Moggi isn't fair or that they didn't have the same objectives in Europe in most seasons, but comparing each of them to their contemporaries in different clubs is an entirely different topic. Arguing that we should switch to a completely different topic instead makes no sense.

And there isn't much argument to be had if we compare them to their contemporaries. Moggi was arguably the best director in the business, at least when it came to transfer deals. And the only competition the current mgmt has among top clubs is Bayern, and IMO, our mgmt > Bayern's.

BTW, we were almost in a similar situation when Moggi first took over. We struggled to win anything in late 80s and early 90s.

We were the second richest team in Europe for 3-4 years running (2000-2004) and were consistently in the top 5 from the late 90s all the way until Calciopoli happened. Throughout that era there was very small differences in wealth between us and the the richest club on the list.

Yes, we were after our success in the 90s. I'm aware. In 2005-06, our revenue was up there with the richest. But that still didn't mean "we could always buy the best players in the world." I already replied re Nedved, Thuram, Vieira, and Ibra. We couldn't because we practiced self-sustainability even then. And because we didn't invest in youth.

We didn't used to spend 200 mills per summer because rich clubs back then were nothing compared to now and player prices reflected that. The 2nd richest team in 2000 (Juve) made 173.5 mill while today the club with the same ranking (Barca) makes 651.8 mill This link has the rankings:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League#1997.E2.80.9398

You don't say.

I'm aware. Everyone is.

Moreover, I never picked on Marotta and always acknowledged him as a great director (by Marotta I include Agnelli and Paratici and staff) but I also point to his mistakes.

Is that why you had frequent "meltdown episodes" in summer and fall of 2015 and even complained afterwards?

Agnelli isn't a director, and Agnelli and Marotta have diff responsibilities.

Finally, Galliani was a brilliant director back in the day, bringing Milan incredible success. He is the kind of manager that can do wonders with big finances but as history now shows, he can't do $#@! on a tight budget. There probably are managers that are the reverse, capable of doing very well on a budget, bringing the most out of the little finances available but can't build a full world dominating team when they have lots of money. We see the same with coaches who can do wonders with mediocre players and get them to play at 110% but then can only get 70% out of actual world class players. Enrique for instance seems to be a coach that can do wonders with a world class squad but does nothing notable when managing a mediocre squad.

That's true. Conte was the better coach for us in 2001, and Allegri is the better coach for us now. Different directors and coaches are at their best in diff scenarios. Some are great in every scenario. Moggi and Lippi at the start had a bit of similarity with Marotta and Conte.

Can't say that surely about LE. He simply might have grown and learned from his mistakes. And it's easier to coach Barca than Roma for anyone.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

“The ideas that emerged from this meeting are important and have to be shared by clubs, presidents and the governing body,” he told Sport Italia.
“If it happens [B teams] it will be in everyone’s interest. Everything seems to indicate that these second teams are an important tool for growth and for the training of young players who belong to each club.”

 

[JuveID]

The great Mourinho once said the same thing ("no heggs, no homelettes"), but are you calling Marotta an egg substitute?




@Hist, I would've preferred if your post were a paragraph shorter. Usually, I skip posts that are longer than four decent-sized paragraphs or so.



We were richer obviously, but no, we didn't. We never had the financial might to sign any established star for big bucks in the history of our club.



There was no FFP, but we balanced our books back then too. We didn't have a sugardaddy, and we were self-sustained.



We had to sell Zidane to buy Nedved and Thuram. We had to do the same before Moggi era too. We often sold top players in their late 20s.

We signed Vieira when he was deteriorating. Vieira wasn't at his best in his last season with Arsenal. That continued at Juve. He was good for us, but that Vieira wasn't the best, prime Vieira.



Ibra and Mutu were much cheaper than Neymar. Neymar's transfer fee almost broke the record. Ibra's fee wasn't anywhere close to the record at that time (Zidane).



This is true. Current mgmt had more need to invest in young talents because the only way we could catch up with the big boys in Europe was to sign young talents before they do, wait for them to realize their talent, and look for "opportunities" like Tevez and Pirlo. We couldn't compete with them with $ and, for the most part, still can't.

Moggi also had financial restrictions, not to Marotta's level before this season, but he couldn't just go out and buy anyone like you're thinking. In addition to Juventinata, we also needed a better youth system to circumvent that. Moggi's financial constraints/freedom aren't too different from what Marotta's was this season and will be next season. And not investing in future (besides starting the bureau work on stadium in mid-90s) is definitely a negative you can point out in Moggi. Even if Juve were the richest (we weren't) and he could buy anyone (he couldn't), not planning for the distant future is never a good thing. That was the GM model.



This argument doesn't make Moggi look very good.



This does. And we all agree with this.



Barca became this good after Calciopoli, post-Moggi. When what Cruyff started bore fruit with La Masia players in conjunction with Pep as the coach.



I think you missed the topic of our discussion. We were comparing two successful Juve directors (despite their diff situations and challenges). Juve only. Not where each of them ranked/rank in their era in Europe.

If you want to compare Marotta with other GMs/directors in Europe at present, then yes, I agree. I've thought so for a while. I'm glad you stopped picking on him and realized this.

But it'd be more accurate to look at our mgmt as a whole. Agnelli and Paratici play huge roles too. Hiring coaches is the decision of both Agnelli and Marotta, not just Marotta. In general, Agnelli takes care of the financial side of things, and Marotta is the head of everything that involves players. Paratici, who reports to Marotta, is in charge of scouting and deserves the accolades for our excellent scouting.

And yes, Simeone is amazing. Has been the best coach in the world since 2013-14. Some in Atletico's mgmt are thugs btw.

How do you know hiring coaches is the decision of both marotta and agnelli? As far as i know, unlike berlusconi, agnelli has nothing to do on technical level like choosing players, coaches, scouts, etc

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

Agnelli chose Conte. That's pretty well documented.

 

[JuveID]

Agnelli chose Conte. That's pretty well documented.

About that, i read that on conte's biography.
But, Does it mean agnelli role on hiring del neri and allegri?

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

Pretty sure he personally stepped in and wanted Conte after Delneri was sacked. Delneri and Allegri were both Marotta's choices.

 

[s4tch]

delneri was marotta's biggest mistake by a mile. what a mediocre coach.

 

[Ocelot]

“The ideas that emerged from this meeting are important and have to be shared by clubs, presidents and the governing body,” he told Sport Italia.
“If it happens [B teams] it will be in everyone’s interest. Everything seems to indicate that these second teams are an important tool for growth and for the training of young players who belong to each club.”

That's potentially huge.

 

[Bianconero_Aus]

About time too. One of many things needed to shake up and improve Italian football. Now to reduce Serie A itself to 18 teams...(and sort out the stadium issues)

 

[KB824]

That's potentially huge.

Not only for the development of the young players and actually determining how much they play vis a vis loaning these kids out, but I think it would also be great for players coming back from injuries to be sent down there for a short period of time to get match fitness.

To me, that is every bit as important

 

[Suns]

I've reached a point where if we sold Dybala tomorrow and replaced him with Bendtner I'd go 'there is probably something to make us better in this'.
He's always 2 steps ahead and sees things that people can't. Look at the Allegri hiring for example, we all thought he was a joke for years but Beppe saw something and it ended up being one of the best hirings we've ever made.
There are bunch of other examples out there.

 

[BIG DADDY!!!]

I think Allegri was the easiest option given the circumstances to be honest.

Conte quit half way through pre season and we love our Italian coaches and he was best available after Prandelli going to Turkey.

 

[JuveID]

I think Allegri was the easiest option given the circumstances to be honest.

Conte quit half way through pre season and we love our Italian coaches and he was best available after Prandelli going to Turkey.

According to allegri, a few months before his appointment, marotta and he already discussed about possibility of being juventus coach. But it was for 2015/2016 season.
Marotta already planned allegri as Conte's replacement.

 

[juventino320]

smart move and it paid out.