Get ready to dislike America (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Slagathor
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The rest of the world (besides the US) finds itself in a state of dependence on each other and finds this sense of existence and self-sustenance built around dependence acceptable. Its called "cooperation" and unfurled proudly as a positive attribute in every possible way.
This principle of cooperation (as opposed to independence) evolved from a realistic set of needs. That a group of people would not survive without assistance, intervention or bartering with another group of people, another culture, another nation.
To what I believe is the most common self-perception of America as a whole, this dependence is a negative connotation. This positive view of independence evolved from past history and experiences, just as different views did in the case of much of western Europe.
When a people broke away from the rest of society and civilisation as they knew it, they really did break away. They eventually cut off all ties, renounced any obligation to them through trade, diplomacy, culture- you name it. Their only obligation was to themselves and their own people.
And along with ignorance, arrogance, obesity, lack of charm, culture, class and whatever else Americans are criticised for, there also came phenomenal success in American society.
This is why Americans not only have their own "Ringrijden" and "Skûtjesjilen", but the American versions are also the most viewed, participated-in(?) and successful sports in the country. And why while so much of Europe has been overrun, conquered, taken over and bartered over, America has had only Pearl Harbor and 9/11 to contend with.
On a tangent, this will probably also explain what is behind a lot of conservative American philosophy besides the current hot topics of gay marriage and abortion.
Not to say Europeans or the general collective ideology they have in common is inferior or bad. But Im confused as to why its so hard to accept this sense of independence as natural, normal and acceptable for Americans by non-Americans, specifically Europeans.
This principle of cooperation (as opposed to independence) evolved from a realistic set of needs. That a group of people would not survive without assistance, intervention or bartering with another group of people, another culture, another nation.
To what I believe is the most common self-perception of America as a whole, this dependence is a negative connotation. This positive view of independence evolved from past history and experiences, just as different views did in the case of much of western Europe.
When a people broke away from the rest of society and civilisation as they knew it, they really did break away. They eventually cut off all ties, renounced any obligation to them through trade, diplomacy, culture- you name it. Their only obligation was to themselves and their own people.
And along with ignorance, arrogance, obesity, lack of charm, culture, class and whatever else Americans are criticised for, there also came phenomenal success in American society.
This is why Americans not only have their own "Ringrijden" and "Skûtjesjilen", but the American versions are also the most viewed, participated-in(?) and successful sports in the country. And why while so much of Europe has been overrun, conquered, taken over and bartered over, America has had only Pearl Harbor and 9/11 to contend with.
On a tangent, this will probably also explain what is behind a lot of conservative American philosophy besides the current hot topics of gay marriage and abortion.
Not to say Europeans or the general collective ideology they have in common is inferior or bad. But Im confused as to why its so hard to accept this sense of independence as natural, normal and acceptable for Americans by non-Americans, specifically Europeans.
This sense of individualism and independence isn't new and European nations did know it (be it briefly) in history. The reason the Europeans weren't able to hang on to it is because of geographical size and the complex situation surrounding a rise in demand of natural resources found in territories under different authorities. It's a simple process, a process the US has also been going through in the twentieth century and to a lesser extent before that.
"The rest of the world (besides the US) finds itself in a state of dependence on each other"
That is a rather bold statement. In present day, the US is very much in a state of dependence itself (though I will not deny they remarkably long held onto their independence, but it has vanished during the course of the Cold War). And it's all about economics and globalisation. Globalisation, not Americanisation because they are not the same. The US are humongous importers and Asia and to a lesser extent Europe thrive on the huge consumer market that is the US where they can sell their products. That gives the US a lot of power, clearly, because every exported Dollar is direly needed abroad.
That doesn't mean the US could do without the imports at the same time. It's been a long time since the US was self-sufficient in natural resources such as oil. It's been equally long since the US could compete with low-cost, highly efficient producer economies of Asia with an ever swelling stream of business packing up and leaving for said continent. The US, and Europe, are dealing with this blow best they can and shift their economies from producing economies (industries) to service economics (services, research, focus on advanced technology). That strategy works in terms of battling economic recessions, but doesn't stop a slow but unstoppable change in the balance of power to the disadvantage of the West, including the US.
In today's world, no one country is independent. No one country has a lot of power, even. Barring the military. The corportate international businesses dictate which region of the world has power over which other region. If Philips, Royal Shell, Koninklijke Schelde, DAF and other Dutch businesses move their production sectors abroad, the Netherlands will have to import products it needs to keep its economy running and its country viable. That gives the region where the products are produced a great deal of power over the Netherlands. The same goes for the US.
I won't deny the US has hung on to independence and isolationism longer than any other nation in modern history, and that this shaped the US in ways that make it a remarkably different country compared to any other. But those days are over. This is the global village, this is the twenty-first century.
"The rest of the world (besides the US) finds itself in a state of dependence on each other"
That is a rather bold statement. In present day, the US is very much in a state of dependence itself (though I will not deny they remarkably long held onto their independence, but it has vanished during the course of the Cold War). And it's all about economics and globalisation. Globalisation, not Americanisation because they are not the same. The US are humongous importers and Asia and to a lesser extent Europe thrive on the huge consumer market that is the US where they can sell their products. That gives the US a lot of power, clearly, because every exported Dollar is direly needed abroad.
That doesn't mean the US could do without the imports at the same time. It's been a long time since the US was self-sufficient in natural resources such as oil. It's been equally long since the US could compete with low-cost, highly efficient producer economies of Asia with an ever swelling stream of business packing up and leaving for said continent. The US, and Europe, are dealing with this blow best they can and shift their economies from producing economies (industries) to service economics (services, research, focus on advanced technology). That strategy works in terms of battling economic recessions, but doesn't stop a slow but unstoppable change in the balance of power to the disadvantage of the West, including the US.
In today's world, no one country is independent. No one country has a lot of power, even. Barring the military. The corportate international businesses dictate which region of the world has power over which other region. If Philips, Royal Shell, Koninklijke Schelde, DAF and other Dutch businesses move their production sectors abroad, the Netherlands will have to import products it needs to keep its economy running and its country viable. That gives the region where the products are produced a great deal of power over the Netherlands. The same goes for the US.
I won't deny the US has hung on to independence and isolationism longer than any other nation in modern history, and that this shaped the US in ways that make it a remarkably different country compared to any other. But those days are over. This is the global village, this is the twenty-first century.
How is all of that even relevant? Besides, sports aren't invented anyway, they grow.The Romans played ball sports, and so did the Chinese and Aztecs. The Aztecs had a game in which a hoop was placed at approximately 3 metres in the air and the goal was to put a ball in it. Seems a lot like basketball to me and you sure as hell are no Aztecs. One could also state American football is a cheap and ridiculous rip off of rugby and that baseball and cricket also have some similarities. No such thing as your "own" sport, my friend. I guess it's all about culture though, Americans seem to be fascinated by fast sports that involve a lot of scoring and football obviously isn't one of them.
To make things even worse you have hardly done everything you sum up there yourself. Or am I wrong in making the bold statement European states had created the perfect environment for you to "create your own laws etcetera.". America's sense of independance, both in the past and now, is simply delusional. Not to mention the fact you do not have your own history, and we do
.
To make things even worse you have hardly done everything you sum up there yourself. Or am I wrong in making the bold statement European states had created the perfect environment for you to "create your own laws etcetera.". America's sense of independance, both in the past and now, is simply delusional. Not to mention the fact you do not have your own history, and we do
.
Seven said:
How is all of that even relevant? Besides, sports aren't invented anyway, they grow.The Romans played ball sports, and so did the Chinese and Aztecs. The Aztecs had a game in which a hoop was placed at approximately 3 metres in the air and the goal was to put a ball in it. Seems a lot like basketball to me and you sure as hell are no Aztecs. One could also state American football is a cheap and ridiculous rip off of rugby and that baseball and cricket also have some similarities. No such thing as your "own" sport, my friend. I guess it's all about culture though, Americans seem to be fascinated by fast sports that involve a lot of scoring and football obviously isn't one of them.
To make things even worse you have hardly done everything you sum up there yourself. Or am I wrong in making the bold statement European states had created the perfect environment for you to "create your own laws etcetera.". America's sense of independance, both in the past and now, is simply delusional. Not to mention the fact you do not have your own history, and we do.
To make things even worse you have hardly done everything you sum up there yourself. Or am I wrong in making the bold statement European states had created the perfect environment for you to "create your own laws etcetera.". America's sense of independance, both in the past and now, is simply delusional. Not to mention the fact you do not have your own history, and we do
.
Cricket is cricket.
Baseball is a more intense and skillfull form of softball (Aka Rounders.)
Rugby is a development of football...from the town of Rugby... where some git picked up the ball when playing football.
Football was invented.....by the english a long time ago in a town far far away.
Cant argue the basketball one though
:America's independance imho is merely a political rallying tool.
How many imigrants have there been into american society ? Heck the real original native americans are a dying breed....they are the "Real" americans. That already highlights the requirement of imported help.
Europes lack of indepence imho comes from the fact we have had soo many wars and soo many imigrants changing states, we are slowly learning that independance isnt the way forward.
The american big wigs like Bush and other politicians merely use patriotism and "independence" as a tool to make more dollars. America wouldnt survive without external trade....if they tried, other countries and chine would become the leading super power.
How do American football and Rugby not look alike? Seriously, the ressemblance is frightning. Rugby's just cool and an actual sport, American football isn't .
About regular football: there are lots of variants that could all have lead to the football we know today. It wasn't until the FA was founded that the rules were set.
.About regular football: there are lots of variants that could all have lead to the football we know today. It wasn't until the FA was founded that the rules were set.
Seven said:
How do American football and Rugby not look alike? Seriously, the ressemblance is frightning. Rugby's just cool and an actual sport, American football isn't .
About regular football: there are lots of variants that could all have lead to the football we know today. It wasn't until the FA was founded that the rules were set.
.About regular football: there are lots of variants that could all have lead to the football we know today. It wasn't until the FA was founded that the rules were set.
I can see the similarities , but as i have played and friends with both Rugby league and Union fanatics, i can tell u the american football is nothing really like football.
Apart from the fact the majority of players have to hack or tackle other players, their are few skifull players who either kick, pass or "throw" the ball.
And the balls have similar shapes. Other than that they are totally different
( i see your point 
)
#10 said:
Very true, the FA were really the ones who "invented" football as we kno it, taking the development of a game for the street and the poor.
I can see the similarities , but as i have played and friends with both Rugby league and Union fanatics, i can tell u the american football is nothing really like football.
Apart from the fact the majority of players have to hack or tackle other players, their are few skifull players who either kick, pass or "throw" the ball.
And the balls have similar shapes. Other than that they are totally different ( i see your point )
I can see the similarities , but as i have played and friends with both Rugby league and Union fanatics, i can tell u the american football is nothing really like football.
Apart from the fact the majority of players have to hack or tackle other players, their are few skifull players who either kick, pass or "throw" the ball.
And the balls have similar shapes. Other than that they are totally different
( i see your point )
You highlighted a very important point- namely the transition from this sense of independence and isolation to one of dependence. Its happening and with this change will come a lot of social and cultural change. Some will be happy while others will not like it.
America is very dependent on others in terms of economy and resources even while there is a lot of denial about it. The local auto industries are performing dismally with Honda Nissan and Toyoto stealing market share. Even then, people are afraid to reform the business model because theyre afraid to ruin the stability.
Currently, the majority of US dependence on imports lies in low-grade essentials- goods and services that cannot be created in the US because it doesnt work with the balance of worker income/corporation profit. Thats why we're outsourcing, thats why China and Taiwan does all the manufacturing, thats why Bangladesh India and Pakistan makes the tshirts, thats why IT workers are pouring in from outside, etc.
As for me, Im one who prefers cooperation and dependence on others as opposed to isolationism. However, I dont like it happening when its not on one's own terms. In America's case that can be put down to economic lethargy and a refusal to adapt. This will eventually come back to haunt these businesses because if you dont evolve you will go extinct.
Now the economic situation is perfectly mirrored socially. I saw more hype among coworkers and friends for this world cup than I did for the previous one. This was only a casual observation and Im sure there must have been rednecks over in Montana who were denouncing it as filthy immoral pansy eurotrash. But there is nothing wrong with that. You'd do it too.
America is very dependent on others in terms of economy and resources even while there is a lot of denial about it. The local auto industries are performing dismally with Honda Nissan and Toyoto stealing market share. Even then, people are afraid to reform the business model because theyre afraid to ruin the stability.
Currently, the majority of US dependence on imports lies in low-grade essentials- goods and services that cannot be created in the US because it doesnt work with the balance of worker income/corporation profit. Thats why we're outsourcing, thats why China and Taiwan does all the manufacturing, thats why Bangladesh India and Pakistan makes the tshirts, thats why IT workers are pouring in from outside, etc.
As for me, Im one who prefers cooperation and dependence on others as opposed to isolationism. However, I dont like it happening when its not on one's own terms. In America's case that can be put down to economic lethargy and a refusal to adapt. This will eventually come back to haunt these businesses because if you dont evolve you will go extinct.
Now the economic situation is perfectly mirrored socially. I saw more hype among coworkers and friends for this world cup than I did for the previous one. This was only a casual observation and Im sure there must have been rednecks over in Montana who were denouncing it as filthy immoral pansy eurotrash. But there is nothing wrong with that. You'd do it too.
mephiztopheles said:
btw im an american also
well thats just stupid, u just didnt invent it. its not a matter of will dude
well thats just stupid, u just didnt invent it. its not a matter of will dude
These are not my opinions. This is the American patriot's subconscious at work.
Im heading down to Houston in a few weeks. Come with me mephztopheles. We'll meet all kinds of hicks and hillbillies on the way. You'll see first-hand the species that got our president elected