General Religion & Philosophy Discussion Thread (22 Viewers)

[Raz]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the human eye.

Why not squids eye? It's much more awesome. Even egle eye is more awesome than humans. If oyu think of it, human eye is not that special compared to some other animals in the world.

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Linebreak a question. Do you think that this carefully controled aspect you are saying is happening right now by a concious being. Like if he were to go for a smoke the gravity would callapse, the sun would stop shining, and everything would just become one big ball of chaos? Or that the universe just works by a set of rules that keep it in place?

 

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[Sheik Yerbouti]

This intelligent design/fine tuning argument is weak and unacceptable when compared to evolution. The former does not describe the agency through which the fine tuning/design is made through. There also isn't a satisfying reason why the designer designed it. There is no mechanism to trace back the so-called designs to a "designer", and neither is there a mechanism to determine the identity of the designer. Lastly, the designer is always pushed out of the reach of science by being described as timeless and spaceless. Ergo, pseudo-scientific. MOVE ON!

WW1 and WW2 were fought for secular ideals. There's no denying that.

Hitler was not a religious man - he had some twisted views of religion. He obviously took on modern secular views of science of his time like some races were more evolved than others - hence the Germans were the most evolved and they were to control of all the lesser races - very "survival of the fittest" and "natural selection" ideology morphed in political power there.

Twisted or not, it was still religious. If he was an atheist, why was the holocaust targeted only at specific religious groups like Jews and Jehovah's witnesses and not at Hindus, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants or any other religious groups? If he was an atheist, why was "God with us" inscribed along with the Nazi logos? Why didn't he remove it if he was an atheist?

Hitler was wrong in understanding "survival of the fittest" and "natural selection" as prescriptive statements instead of descriptive. Doesn't mean that the Nazi movement was any less religious.

Both were plenty enough as it was.

The point being that anybody who thinks adhering to any given belief system, and who happens to be human -- and that said one belief system is so unique and special as to somehow enable one to overcome all the evils, misuses, abuses, and past horrors humans have committed in the name of belief systems -- is completely delusional.

Considering ones' ideology superior to another ideology does not necessarily imply that the believers will employ violent means to instill their ideology. Yes, some atheists think their world view is superior to a religious view. But how many atheists do you see behaving violently to make their point? Most of the atheists that annoy people these days write books, attend debates, make Youtube videos debunking religious concepts or post on forums like these. It's the religious nutjobs resorting to violence.

At least it seems like atheists learnt from Stalin and Pol Pot and refrain from resorting to violence. The same cannot be said about certain religions. Atheism wins here.

That's sensing or hearing.

We are talking about an eye, that needs light to see - we are talking about the human eye.

The eye is completely useless unless ALL of it's parts are present.

The eye and light area great example of design in nature, along with the infinite other examples.

FFS, educate yourself before making stupid statements.


Half an eye is better than no eye.

Also, the eye is useless without the brain. The latter is what makes sense of what the eye receives. Ever wondered why you "see" dreams even though your eyes are closed?

 

[IrishZebra]

Twisted or not, it was still religious. If he was an atheist, why was the holocaust targeted only at specific religious groups like Jews and Jehovah's witnesses and not at Hindus, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants or any other religious groups? If he was an atheist, why was "God with us" inscribed along with the Nazi logos? Why didn't he remove it if he was an atheist?

I like you dude but this is Turk_Bianconero level of ignorance. I expect a much more rigorous study of history from somebody such as yourself, I'm actually disappointed.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I like you dude but this is Turk_Bianconero level of ignorance. I expect a much more rigorous study of history from somebody such as yourself, I'm actually disappointed.

Explain yourself.

 

[JuveJay]

When different systems work in harmony with each other, it's strong evidence for design.

Tell that to all the poorly 'designed' extinct creatures which couldn't adapt.

 

[Raz]

Sheik, holocoust target wasn't only religious. It all started with the gipsies. It just went version two after that.

 

[IrishZebra]

Explain yourself.

You really should explain yourself to all of us after pulling a Turk...

National Socialism propagated a cult of personality wherein Adolf Hitler was quite literally the Messiah(No supernatural deity...). It coopted pagan,occult, and protestant imagery and emotive social phenomena into an evil jingoist and racialist national culture. It coopted imagery and ideas in order to cement the regime and persecute the 'others'. If you want to argue that a dictatorship is theistic if it worships the dictator be my guest, but you'd be taking a very lax philosophical stance which would essentially make Iran and Yugoslavia the same thing.
The Holocaust refers specifically to the targeting of the Jews. You are overall referring to Nazi mass murder polices (aka genocide) which included Gays, Physically Disabled, Mentally Disabled, The Political left, The Entire Polish Nation, Slavs, Black and more importantly for our point Catholics.

Actually you know what, I'm just going to suffice to say that Hitler himself was an atheist an only deviated to attack Soviet and other atheist idologies and his personal regime targeted and engaged in cultural, spiritual, and physical genocide against almost a dozen groups.


Also the whole 8,000 Catholic priests murdered by his regime....


Seriously dude, I mean there's so much to even write against the point.

It's almost like you want to waive the Reichskonkordat in my face and say SEE CATHOLICS ARE NAZZIIIIIISSSS!!!111!!!!

14 year old atheist horseshite.

 

[icemaη]

The Zebra just got violent

 

[JuveJay]

The Zebra just got violent

I imagine he's doing a good impression of his avatar right now.

 

[IrishZebra]

I imagine he's doing a good impression of his avatar right now.

I just got off the phone with tech support...so yes.

 

[JuveJay]

I just got off the phone with tech support...so yes.

That's no reason to take it out on the nearest Indian.

 

[IrishZebra]

That's no reason to take it out on the nearest Indian.

 

[swag]

This intelligent design/fine tuning argument is weak and unacceptable when compared to evolution.

I'm not even comparing it to evolution. I find it intellectually stunted that people extrapolate the idea of "If I see a cool toy on my block, it's because some dude designed it. Thus, extend my block to the entire universe and all its mechanisms and extend that dude to the designer of all things as some God-like figure. Simple."

It's an almost infantile projection of childish logic onto something so vastly different and immensely grander -- and something someone ultimately knows so little about.

You can't take one small subsystem and your knowledge of its rules, find possible parallels, and then suggest by logic that the same rules extend to a whole other system. You may as well believe that just because people move around like ants and look like ants from above, humans too have a giant queen that produces all the eggs and the colony of humans protects it. Intelligent design is based on the same sort of logical extension.

Sheik, holocoust target wasn't only religious. It all started with the gipsies. It just went version two after that.

And all that master race stuff was about Jews as a genetic lineage more than a cohesive religious group.

The Zebra just got violent

That's no reason to take it out on the nearest Indian.

 

[Zé Tahir]

You really should explain yourself to all of us after pulling a Turk...

National Socialism propagated a cult of personality wherein Adolf Hitler was quite literally the Messiah(No supernatural deity...). It coopted pagan,occult, and protestant imagery and emotive social phenomena into an evil jingoist and racialist national culture. It coopted imagery and ideas in order to cement the regime and persecute the 'others'. If you want to argue that a dictatorship is theistic if it worships the dictator be my guest, but you'd be taking a very lax philosophical stance which would essentially make Iran and Yugoslavia the same thing.
The Holocaust refers specifically to the targeting of the Jews. You are overall referring to Nazi mass murder polices (aka genocide) which included Gays, Physically Disabled, Mentally Disabled, The Political left, The Entire Polish Nation, Slavs, Black and more importantly for our point Catholics.

Actually you know what, I'm just going to suffice to say that Hitler himself was an atheist an only deviated to attack Soviet and other atheist idologies and his personal regime targeted and engaged in cultural, spiritual, and physical genocide against almost a dozen groups.


Also the whole 8,000 Catholic priests murdered by his regime....


Seriously dude, I mean there's so much to even write against the point.

It's almost like you want to waive the Reichskonkordat in my face and say SEE CATHOLICS ARE NAZZIIIIIISSSS!!!111!!!!

14 year old atheist horseshite.

BAM!

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Sheik, holocoust target wasn't only religious. It all started with the gipsies. It just went version two after that.

In that post, I meant to say "he" was religious, not "it"(holocaust) was religious. Apologies for the typo.

You really should explain yourself to all of us after pulling a Turk...

National Socialism propagated a cult of personality wherein Adolf Hitler was quite literally the Messiah(No supernatural deity...). It coopted pagan,occult, and protestant imagery and emotive social phenomena into an evil jingoist and racialist national culture. It coopted imagery and ideas in order to cement the regime and persecute the 'others'. If you want to argue that a dictatorship is theistic if it worships the dictator be my guest, but you'd be taking a very lax philosophical stance which would essentially make Iran and Yugoslavia the same thing.
The Holocaust refers specifically to the targeting of the Jews. You are overall referring to Nazi mass murder polices (aka genocide) which included Gays, Physically Disabled, Mentally Disabled, The Political left, The Entire Polish Nation, Slavs, Black and more importantly for our point Catholics.

Actually you know what, I'm just going to suffice to say that Hitler himself was an atheist an only deviated to attack Soviet and other atheist idologies and his personal regime targeted and engaged in cultural, spiritual, and physical genocide against almost a dozen groups.


Also the whole 8,000 Catholic priests murdered by his regime....


Seriously dude, I mean there's so much to even write against the point.

It's almost like you want to waive the Reichskonkordat in my face and say SEE CATHOLICS ARE NAZZIIIIIISSSS!!!111!!!!

14 year old atheist horseshite.

That point of that post was that Hitler wasn't an atheist, which is what Linebreak was suggesting. I don't think he was an atheist. I see more evidence that he accepted the notion of god rather than reject it, like atheists now. And even if he was a atheist, then that "atheism" is so far from what we refer to as atheism now that it would be like comparing apples and oranges. Which is why I said if he was an atheist, there's no reason why he'd only target a handful of religious groups rather than every religious group. And no, killing a handful of Catholic priests is not the same as killing millions of Jews.

I'm not even comparing it to evolution. I find it intellectually stunted that people extrapolate the idea of "If I see a cool toy on my block, it's because some dude designed it. Thus, extend my block to the entire universe and all its mechanisms and extend that dude to the designer of all things as some God-like figure. Simple."

It's an almost infantile projection of childish logic onto something so vastly different and immensely grander -- and something someone ultimately knows so little about.

You can't take one small subsystem and your knowledge of its rules, find possible parallels, and then suggest by logic that the same rules extend to a whole other system. You may as well believe that just because people move around like ants and look like ants from above, humans too have a giant queen that produces all the eggs and the colony of humans protects it. Intelligent design is based on the same sort of logical extension.

1) That post was for Linebreak, not you.
2) The comparison to evolution was to show how good an "explanation" of phenomena Intelligent Design really was, which it isn't.
3) I agree with everything you said here.

 

[Martin]

In that post, I meant to say "he" was religious, not "it"(holocaust) was religious. Apologies for the typo.



That point of that post was that Hitler wasn't an atheist, which is what Linebreak was suggesting. I don't think he was an atheist. I see more evidence that he accepted the notion of god rather than reject it, like atheists now. And even if he was a atheist, then that "atheism" is so far from what we refer to as atheism now that it would be like comparing apples and oranges. Which is why I said if he was an atheist, there's no reason why he'd only target a handful of religious groups rather than every religious group. And no, killing a handful of Catholic priests is not the same as killing millions of Jews.



1) That post was for Linebreak, not you.
2) The comparison to evolution was to show how good an "explanation" of phenomena Intelligent Design really was, which it isn't.
3) I agree with everything you said here.

That is against the rules!

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

That is against the rules!

I disagree with you.

 

[Martin]

That's better.

 

[IrishZebra]

Words .

He was an evil politician, he did not believe in any god. He used Anti-atheist statements to fight the 'other' and pro-religious statements to legitimise the Aryan tradition as a great moral and exceptional society.

The jews were the primary internal 'other' as an ethnic and economic group which was probably why ethnically jewish but converted jews were sill kind of gassed and Hitler arguably did more to the Poles than he did to the Jews. For fuck sake he only picked the Jews because cunts like HENRY FORD funded political organisations to demonise the jews.


The man was possible part Jewish, an invalid, probably a homosexual, and he was so narcissistic to make a theistic worldview ludicrous.



But what would I know, I've only studied everything of relevance to this debate for the past 5 fucking years.

 

[Martin]

He was an evil politician, he did not believe in any god. He used Anti-atheist statements to fight the 'other' and pro-religious statements to legitimise the Aryan tradition as a great moral and exceptional society.

The jews were the primary internal 'other' as an ethnic and economic group which was probably why ethnically jewish but converted jews were sill kind of gassed and Hitler arguably did more to the Poles than he did to the Jews. For $#@! sake he only picked the Jews because $#@!s like HENRY FORD funded political organisations to demonise the jews.


The man was possible part Jewish, an invalid, probably a homosexual, and he was so narcissistic to make a theistic worldview ludicrous.



But what would I know, I've only studied everything of relevance to this debate for the past 5 $#@!ing years.

So what about Syria?