[FRA] Ligue 1 2012/2013 (22 Viewers)

[Trequartista]

Right. So it doesn't function. Ergo I'm not surprised you're feeling rebellious, anyone would be.

That doesn't prove that socialism is inherently broken.

It does not but it is a good example of a state that is spending too much money (on social programs) and is not working.

Just to clarify. France isn't a socialist country, but a Social Democratic country.

And yes americans, there's a huge difference.

Thank you for the info but we all know that here.

 

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[Fred]

Yes, and water is wet. Your point?



Why? Why is there an arbitrary number that's too radical and another that isn't? All you're doing is comparing this number to numbers you've seen before, and it's higher. I'm relatively sure it's not based on an socio-economical analysis.

---------- Post added 17.08.2012 at 22:30 ----------



So where does it grow? In Swiss bank accounts? Please educate.

Well fact of the matter is, comparing tax rates is very important. So no, i'm not saying 75% is a high number arbitrarily, i'm saying it because in comparison to other(European) countries, 75% is a very high number.

I see no benefit in driving the high income earners away from the country. You'll find that, individual's willingness to take entrepreneurial risks is proportional to their accumulated capital, you can't really accumulate capital with such high tax rates, can you? In these times of economic strife and weak job markets, we really do need more entrepreneurial risk takers, as they are the people who create jobs.

 

[Maddy]

It does not but it is a good example of a state that is spending too much money (on social programs) and is not working.

What about Liberal or Conservative countries spending too much? Is that also a socialist thing.

There's nothing in the Social Democratic model that suggest long term debt is a good thing.

 

[Martin]

It does not but it is a good example of a state that is spending too much money (on social programs) and is not working.

That is a seductive smile you have though. He could be a politician just based on that.

 

[Trequartista]

Well fact of the matter is, comparing tax rates is very important. So no, i'm not saying 75% is a high number arbitrarily, i'm saying it because in comparison to other(European) countries, 75% is a very high number.

I see no benefit in driving the high income earners away from the country. You'll find that, individual's willingness to take entrepreneurial risks is proportional to their accumulated capital, you can't really accumulate capital with such high tax rates, can you? In these times of economic strife and weak job markets, we really do need more entrepreneurial risk takers, as they are the people who create jobs.

Good post.

 

[Fred]

Just to clarify. France isn't a socialist country, but a Social Democratic country.

And yes americans, there's a huge difference.

Funny, there are no Americans in this argument.

Yet, i understand how Europeans are always imagining America to be the evil capitalist enemy they all think they're better than

 

[Trequartista]

What about Liberal or Conservative countries spending too much? Is that also a socialist thing.

There's nothing in the Social Democratic model that suggest long term debt is a good thing.

They spend their money on what if not for social programs?

If you're talking about military spending, I'm totally for minimal military spending.

 

[Maddy]

Funny, there are no Americans in this argument.

Yet, i understand how Europeans are always imagining America to be the evil capitalist enemy they all think they're better than

You took my joke about americans serious I guess a smiley was needed.

Do I need to remind you that most of Europe and it's population are supporters of capitalism (tho under some control)

 

[Martin]

Well fact of the matter is, comparing tax rates is very important. So no, i'm not saying 75% is a high number arbitrarily, i'm saying it because in comparison to other(European) countries, 75% is a very high number.

Yes, I know. 75 is high because elsewhere it's lower, that's my point. But that doesn't say anything about whether it's a good number or not, just that it's a high number.

I see no benefit in driving the high income earners away from the country. You'll find that, individual's willingness to take entrepreneurial risks is proportional to their accumulated capital, you can't really accumulate capital with such high tax rates, can you? In these times of economic strife and weak job markets, we really do need more entrepreneurial risk takers, as they are the people who create jobs.

I'm pretty sure these high income people you are talking about aren't so thick that they haven't realized that there are places in the world where you can get away with paying basically no tax at all. So if that's their prime motivation, they don't live in France to begin with.

As to your second point about starting a business, it depends on what your motive is. If you're looking to be the next Zucky then you want a country that will demand no taxes from you. On the other hand, if you want to start a sustainable business in a country where there are people who have a good standard of living and there is demand for your product/service then that could just work out.

 

[Maddy]

Yes, I know. 75 is high because elsewhere it's lower, that's my point. But that doesn't say anything about whether it's a good number or not, just that it's a high number.

Actually there's a thing called The Laffer Curve (you probably know that already) which tries to find the magic number where an increase in income tax (marginal) will decrease the income the state gets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve - Quite interesting

 

[Martin]

Actually there's a thing called The Laffer Curve (you probably know that already) which tries to find the magic number where an increase in income tax (marginal) will decrease the income the state gets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve - Quite interesting

No, I'm far too ignorant to know such things, but that's a very interesting concept.

 

[Maddy]

I'm pretty sure these high income people you are talking about aren't so thick that they haven't realized that there are places in the world where you can get away with paying basically no tax at all. So if that's their prime motivation, they don't live in France to begin with.

As to your second point about starting a business, it depends on what your motive is. If you're looking to be the next Zucky then you want a country that will demand no taxes from you. On the other hand, if you want to start a sustainable business in a country where there are people who have a good standard of living and there is demand for your product/service then that could just work out.

Indeed. It's a very often used argument against increasing the taxes in a country. Yet some of the countries in the world with the highest (income) taxes are doing very well.

Too often is education, the work conditions, support from local government, spending power of the population and so on overlooked.

 

[Fred]

You took my joke about americans serious I guess a smiley was needed.

Do I need to remind you that most of Europe and it's population are supporters of capitalism (tho under some control)

I'm not a fan of such binary logic to be honest.

Because despite being very critical of socialism, i will never consider myself a capitalist. I think that its a system that perpetuates human greed, and is inherently unequal.

 

[JCK]

Forza socialism

 

[Martin]

I'm not a fan of such binary logic to be honest.

Because despite being very critical of socialism, i will never consider myself a capitalist. I think that its a system that perpetuates human greed, and is inherently unequal.

Hold your pendulum, pal. I don't have the mental capacity to argue both for and against capitalism in the same conversation. At least stick to one side of the road.

 

[Maddy]

I'm not a fan of such binary logic to be honest.

If you vote on a system which is based on capitalism (often Keynes) then you can be called a supporter of capitalism or a sort of capitalism. Anyways not that important. The point being [most] Europe is capitalistic.

---------- Post added 17.08.2012 at 23:13 ----------

Forza socialism

Of course coming from a Swede

Men I klarer det jo godt hinsidan.

 

[Fred]

Yes, I know. 75 is high because elsewhere it's lower, that's my point. But that doesn't say anything about whether it's a good number or not, just that it's a high number.



I'm pretty sure these high income people you are talking about aren't so thick that they haven't realized that there are places in the world where you can get away with paying basically no tax at all. So if that's their prime motivation, they don't live in France to begin with.

As to your second point about starting a business, it depends on what your motive is. If you're looking to be the next Zucky then you want a country that will demand no taxes from you. On the other hand, if you want to start a sustainable business in a country where there are people who have a good standard of living and there is demand for your product/service then that could just work out.

Thats what the whole argument is about, we agree on 75% being a high number. Is high good or bad? Thats the question. I'm of the opinion that its bad

Its more complex than that, and involves a lot of factors, but an extremely high marginal tax will push them even more to the decision of leaving the country, or at the very least becoming less willing to take entrepreneurial risks, which in itself is a bigger problem than wealthy people leaving the country.

Hold your pendulum, pal. I don't have the mental capacity to argue both for and against capitalism in the same conversation. At least stick to one side of the road.

Lets stick to arguing whether socialism is good or bad, because if we start talking about capitalism, me and you will just agree

 

[Martin]

Where did Treq go? Was it time for a state sponsored neck rub?

 

[Trequartista]

Where did Treq go? Was it time for a state sponsored neck rub?

No, my government is sending me to the newly established gulags in Northern Canada

 

[Martin]

Thats what the whole argument is about, we agree on 75% being a high number. Is high good or bad? Thats the question. I'm of the opinion that its bad

Its more complex than that, and involves a lot of factors, but an extremely high marginal tax will push them even more to the decision of leaving the country, or at the very least becoming less willing to take entrepreneurial risks, which in itself is a bigger problem than wealthy people leaving the country.

Income tax is far from being the only relevant fact, for starters. There are also lots of other things like corporate tax, like employer tax, not to mention such minutia as Maddy was hinting at, like worker's rights, environmental regulations etc. In many cases the interests of the business owner are adversarial to the interests of the consumer or citizen or society.

Lets stick to arguing whether socialism is good or bad, because if we start talking about capitalism, me and you will just agree

If you want something truly radical let's ask why it is that we all seem to agree that capitalism is beyond dispute.