Formation 4-2-3-1.......pick your players! (1 Viewer)

Jan 1, 2003
92
#1
For some time now Lippi had been toying with this new formation. Like Trappatoni, Lippi too seems to admire Del Bosque's creation: the 4-2-3-1. Lately we have been using both the 4-3-1-2 and the 4-2-3-1. Will this trend of mixture carry on to the next season, or was it only a strategic improvisation enforced by Lippi due to the absence of our beloved capitano? With Miccoli and co. arriving, to me, it seems very much possible that the 4-2-3-1 will play the bigger role in the upcoming season. So let us pick the right players for this new, innovative formation. Share your thoughts ladies and gentlemen.

Here is mine:

Juventus FC 2003-2004
formation: 4-2-3-1

1st Team: Buffon; Thuram, Ferrara/Tudor, Puyol/Mexes, Zambrotta; Tacchinardi, Davids; Camoranesi, Del Piero, Nedved; Trezeguet

others: Chimenti; Birindelli, Ferrara/Tudor, Zaccardo, Iuliano, Fresi, Pessotto; Tudor, Blasi, Maresca, Conte; Miccoli, X; Di Viao(?), X
 

Majed

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,630
#2
i dont like this formation and i dont even think Lippi will keep it now that DP is back.

It doesn't suit Trezeguet and it's too defensive.
the 4-3-1-2 is more stable as juve has been using it for years.

but anyway, i'll humor the thought and give you my player formation along with the new siginings:

--------------------------Buffon--------------------------
----Thuram------Tudor--------Mexes------Pessotto
--------------Tacchinardi----Davids------------------
Camoranesi-----------Nedved-----------Del Piero
------------------------Trezeguet------------------------

Subs team:
-------------------------Chimenti-------------------------
----Zenoni-----Iuliano---------Ferrara----Birindelli
--------------------Blasi---------Conte------------------
---Zambrotta----------Miccoli------------Di Vaio-----
-------------------------Zalayetta-----------------------

.......................

i dont like the formation at all anyway:
Here's mine: (3-2-3-2)
--------------------------Buffon-------------------------
-----------Thuram------Tudor-------Mexes----------
------------------Tacchi--------Davids-----------------
Camoranesi----------Nedved---------D'Alessandro
---------------Trezeguet-------Del Piero--------------

Sub team: (4-3-1-2)
-------------------------Chimenti-------------------------
Birnidelli------Bonera--------Ferrara------Pessotto
---------------------------Blasi----------------------------
---------Zambrotta-------------------Conte-------------
--------------------------Maresca--------------------------
--------------Di Vaio---------------Miccoli-----------------

This means:
Reserves: Zenoni, Zalayetta
OUT: Montero, Fresi, Salas and Iuliano
IN: Miccoli, Maresca, Blasi, D'Ale, Bonera, and Mexes.

The only problems here would be the player wages!
though i think Juve can handle it if DP takes a good paycut.

Maybe Maresca would be the one least needed as D'ale can play as a playmaker.

we have too many defender, we need more midfielders (Lippi playing Tudor and Zenoni as midfielders is a good sign of that!)
 

my_hitzJUVE

Senior Member
Dec 14, 2002
740
#3
++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
i dont like this formation and i dont even think Lippi will keep it now that DP is back.

It doesn't suit Trezeguet and it's too defensive.
the 4-3-1-2 is more stable as juve has been using it for years.

but anyway, i'll humor the thought and give you my player formation along with the new siginings:

--------------------------Buffon--------------------------
----Thuram------Tudor--------Mexes------Pessotto
--------------Tacchinardi----Davids------------------
Camoranesi-----------Nedved-----------Del Piero
------------------------Trezeguet------------------------

Subs team:
-------------------------Chimenti-------------------------
----Zenoni-----Iuliano---------Ferrara----Birindelli
--------------------Blasi---------Conte------------------
---Zambrotta----------Miccoli------------Di Vaio-----
-------------------------Zalayetta-----------------------

.......................

i dont like the formation at all anyway:
Here's mine: (3-2-3-2)
--------------------------Buffon-------------------------
-----------Thuram------Tudor-------Mexes----------
------------------Tacchi--------Davids-----------------
Camoranesi----------Nedved---------D'Alessandro
---------------Trezeguet-------Del Piero--------------

Sub team: (4-3-1-2)
-------------------------Chimenti-------------------------
Birnidelli------Bonera--------Ferrara------Pessotto
---------------------------Blasi----------------------------
---------Zambrotta-------------------Conte-------------
--------------------------Maresca--------------------------
--------------Di Vaio---------------Miccoli-----------------

This means:
Reserves: Zenoni, Zalayetta
OUT: Montero, Fresi, Salas and Iuliano
IN: Miccoli, Maresca, Blasi, D'Ale, Bonera, and Mexes.

The only problems here would be the player wages!
though i think Juve can handle it if DP takes a good paycut.

Maybe Maresca would be the one least needed as D'ale can play as a playmaker.

we have too many defender, we need more midfielders (Lippi playing Tudor and Zenoni as midfielders is a good sign of that!)
i don't think we need two def.mid....just waste the position...i know tacchi n davids are goods but we can't play with 3 defender with tudor in centre...i'm sure the player that has good sprint such as thiery henry will score easily...

in thuram's case also....he's better in wing back...let puyol in centre

u alwayz talking about d'ale........how bout diego....or other talented and developed player.....i'm bored to hear d'ale rumours...how long we must waiting for him....i think almost 2 years
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
#4
++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
we have too many defender, we need more midfielders (Lippi playing Tudor and Zenoni as midfielders is a good sign of that!)
We may need more midfielders, but Lippi using Tudor and Zenoni there is no indication. Zenoni plays a right wingback position where he can be a winger or a back, and he is better as a winger. Lippi is just misguided with Tudor, because he is playing Tudor in the position that we have the most depth at.
 

my_hitzJUVE

Senior Member
Dec 14, 2002
740
#5
yeah u're right rickenbacker...zenoni n tudor are not suitable in mid position.....but lippi alwayz know what he doing...both zenoni and tudor are best in the def mid or wing back....
 

slack

Junior Member
Dec 13, 2002
208
#6
Yo C_V! Good to have you back again :D

Our version of 4-2-3-1 has been cruelly exposed in Europe and none more so than the Depor game, where the Spaniards gave us a lesson on how to play it.

Personnel-wise, the biggest problem are the DMs. Tach, who excels as a pure anchor is just that. If there's ever a free role defensively, that'd be what I'll term Davids' game - a brilliant prowler. Neither though has the footballing qualities to provide the equilibrium and stability to succeed. My idea of an ideal DM pairing would be Mauro Silva - Fernando Redondo, which has everything (presence, guile and graft) Of the realistic Serie A options, I believe Maresca can do a job though perhaps not excel in it. Stankovic is another. The rest are just too one-dimensional or lopsided.

To the 3 musketeers upfront - ADP's a permanent fixture in the middle. Realistically, I'd insert Miccoli on the left with the downside being the team becoming a tad lightweight. The 3rd guy can be anyone from Nedved to Camo or simply anyone mobile with good attacking abilities. The sole attacker will probably be Trez though a Tristan or Adriano will be better suited for this role.

Beyond the individual qualities, playing style needs be faster, more technical with much more movement/support play.

Now if you look at the core players we have and the current style we employ, there are obvious difficulties if we want to get anywhere near the best of 4-2-3-1. Lippi's Juventus have always played a high octane, pressure kinda game. A team work ethic bordering on the extreme is instilled in each and every one of them. People like Nedved, Davids et al are at their absolute explosive best on the move, forcing the pace and seizing the initiative. This dynamic quality/style is better-suited to conventional formations like 4-4-2s, 4-5-1s etc, which are more homogeneous in terms of coverage and balance and thus conducive to a proactive 'pressing' system like ours. On the contrary, 4-2-3-1 is more of finding and playing in between spaces. As such, its typically based on a more fluid and patient style, which is reactive and thus more flexible to counter opposing tactics. Hence, if the insistence is on 4-2-3-1 next season, on top of some major acquisitions needed, the most daunting challenge is a drastic change from our established style/mentality (something we currently do best in) to another. Considering the very senior players in question, is it viable to do so? I think not ...

All in all, I think it isn't simply mere numbers on the field ... its the approach and mentality that matters more. Hence, if we're taking a drastic rebuilding route with youth and going long-term, I'd stick with a proactive game (in say, the 4-4-2) and take the team from there towards more sophisticated, reactive ones (ie. the 4-2-3-1) that's based on experience.

Flame/comments? :cool:
 
OP
OP
Jan 1, 2003
92
#7
I too agree with you guys and still prefer our faithful 4-3-1-2. But it may be too hard to keep Miccoli on bench, and I was thinking Lippi could also be thinking of an alternative to give Fabrizio some more playing time. Slack, you did a great job of pointing out the disadvantages of the 4-2-3-1, and yes, so far it does not suit us. I'm not too fond of the 3-2-3-2 you suggested though Majed b/c I think it'll minimalize the wingplay and leave the team exposed and vunrelable for counter-attacks. We are a team that presses, not the kind that enjoys 65% of the possession. I like the 4-2-3-1 better, but perhaps I'm being a bit too critical b/c I never liked a 3-men backline. One clear problem of the 4-2-3-1 that we won't be able to adjust/fix is, like you said, it does not suit Trezegol. Alex partnering and supporting David is the best form of attack for us (as proved thus far). However, as opposed to slack, I think this is the just formation for Tacchinardi. The Makalele/3rd central defender role is his true identity. To me, it's also just a matter of time that Davids gets used to his new role, in front of Tacchinardi, where he is the first man of attack - the distributer of the ball. So far Davids overdid his twists and turns, and we all know he's just a decent passer of the ball. For me, our main problem while playing this formation lies on the last third of the field. We can't hold possession there, and w/o Del Piero our tactics were all based on running and crossing and sending through balls right after the ball is overturned to us. The possession ends right there, and we still look like a counter-attacking team. With Del Piero and Miccoli on the line-up, however, we will get the spark of "creativity" needed and that all should change. With this formation, we also have to play a more balanced football. Zambrotta can't streak up the field all day long while Thuram plays a very defensive role. More importantly, Davids has a significant role, and he should be played like so.

But perhaps 4-2-3-1 is not for us. What better alternative to fit Miccoli in the squad?
 

Majed

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,630
#8
why does Miccoli have to be in the starting 11.

subs are still important. there's nothing wrong with keeping him on the bench. it's not like he's already a top class footballer like dp and trez (though he is good).

dont underestimate the power of a supersub.
 

Glen

Junior Member
Aug 26, 2002
157
#9
'slack': you already posted a near identical message at Xtratime and as I agreed completely there.. nothings changed :).

I don't think we have the necessary flair for 4-2-3-1 either, and it takes substantial changes to get there. Changes I would consider way too expensive looking at what the costs of finetuning 4-3-1-2 would be.

I mean- even going by CM logics you would look at your team and see what would be the easiest way of getting a very strong team. You wouldn't select the hardest and most expensive one.

It's kinda the same with the formations revolving around a 3 man defence. There are bonusses too, although a bit halfassed if I may be so frank.

We would not have to spend time on looking for fullbacks on either sides where we currently only have Thuram as a world class option. Tacchinardi would also be at his absolute best and the system wouldn't change anything for the frint pairings.

On the other hand it would make the demand for a fast central defender even more imperative, and as Camo is less than 100% responsible in defence we would push our fullback problem onto wingback/wingers. At the same time- our lack of depth concerning two way midfeilders would become more pronounced.

With Miccoli, Blasi and Maresca all available and numerous other trade options with our fringe players and loan outs + Primavera- I just think we're so close to getting at a really desireable squad based on 4-3-1-2 and it's siblings :) that changing formation long term is simply a bad idea.
 
Jul 12, 2002
5,666
#10
++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
why does Miccoli have to be in the starting 11.

subs are still important. there's nothing wrong with keeping him on the bench. it's not like he's already a top class footballer like dp and trez (though he is good).

dont underestimate the power of a supersub.
That's be good, but supersubs are finishers, Miccoli is not. Miccoli is currently the biggest rising star in Italy, and he won't sit on the bench next year.
 

my_hitzJUVE

Senior Member
Dec 14, 2002
740
#11
++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


That's be good, but supersubs are finishers, Miccoli is not. Miccoli is currently the biggest rising star in Italy, and he won't sit on the bench next year.
yeah u're right rickenbacker....he is our next stars for the next season...the existing forward n striker will never unrest when he come back....n juve will become more powerful team

i know, what the player feel if they on the bench eventhough for 5 minutes.....it's a hard time for them.....i'm already feel it...its really hard....we must give all the power when starting 11...supersub dosn't promise anything....
 

Majed

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,630
#12
++ [ originally posted by Rickenbacker2 ] ++


That's be good, but supersubs are finishers, Miccoli is not. Miccoli is currently the biggest rising star in Italy, and he won't sit on the bench next year.
He does seem like a very good player, thought i think that you overrate him.

what i mean is that he could be a great DP sub as their styles mach, so lippi won't have to switch formations. This will also give DP a chance to rest some games to keep his form up. i do see him as the next juve#10, but there's nothing wrong with staying on the bench. Del Piero Did while baggio was in the starting XI.

but dont compare him to DP. DP has been playing top football from a younger age. Miccoli is almost 24 and he has yet to win something big.


BTW, a supersub doesn't have to be the one who scores. and i know he is a second stricker. second strickers can change the game too with a nice threw pass or by shaking uo the defense.

If Milan has players like Inzaghi, Rivaldo, or shevchenko sometimes on the bench, then i think juve can do it too. It's time juve has players on the bench that can make a difference.
 

Desmond

Senior Member
Jul 12, 2002
8,938
#13
dp'd have to play as a trequartista or attacking player...and he wouldn't like that.

lippi knows the 4-3-1-2's better when we're playing BOTH dp and treze.....besides,trezegol doesn't suit the 4-2-3-1.
 

Majed

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,630
#14
yeah Paranoia, that's why Miccoli will be a bench player.
Dp shouldn't be a playmaker and by his side should be Trez. That's why the best place for Miccoli is on the bench.
 

Adrian

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2003
4,425
#15
i hate this 4-2-3-1 formation...it doesnt suit Del Piero anyway.

i prefer the normal 4-4-2, camo, tacchinardi and davids in the middle, with nedved behind trez and DP.

and with Miccoli and hopefully D'alessandro, we would have great subs.

miccoli can replace del piero and nedved if need be.

D'alessandro can replace nedved and play on the left side midfield if need be. also, he can take on del piero's role upfront if we really needed him to.

--------------buffon

thuram----tudor----mexes----zambrotta

-------------tacchainrdi

camo------------------------davids

----------------nedved

----------trez-----------DP


on bench:

Maresca (replacing either tacchinardi or davids)
Miccoli (replacing DP and Nedved)
D'Alessandro (replacing nedved, del piero if need be and even playing on the left side of midfield.
 

my_hitzJUVE

Senior Member
Dec 14, 2002
740
#16
++ [ originally posted by Majed ] ++
yeah Paranoia, that's why Miccoli will be a bench player.
Dp shouldn't be a playmaker and by his side should be Trez. That's why the best place for Miccoli is on the bench.
he can't be treated like that...it based on performace (as u said earlier)....so, from current situation...i think micolli is better than terzegol...no wonder if he also can replace trezegol....nobody in juve will treated as indispensible player(as moggi said)....so,the player must keep their best performance...

BTW...rivaldo, inzaghi and shev can sit on the bench because they are milan's valuable player....so, whatever that will happen, eventhough the bad things, they know milan alwayz love them...
how can u promise me juve loves micolli....if this things happen, may be we regret if we think again about henry n kovacevic
.........micolli should not be on the bench.....

forza juve...i'm waiting for this weekend..
 

Majed

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,630
#18
how can you even compare Trez to Miccoli my_hitz.

the one's to compare is DP and Miccoli as they have the same style and they play in the same position.

there is no way on earth that Miccoli can play alongside DP in a twp man attack!!

BTW, you underestimate Trez. dont forget he was last year's top scorer.
 

slack

Junior Member
Dec 13, 2002
208
#20
++ [ originally posted by Christian_Vieri ] ++
I too agree with you guys and still prefer our faithful 4-3-1-2. But it may be too hard to keep Miccoli on bench, and I was thinking Lippi could also be thinking of an alternative to give Fabrizio some more playing time. Slack, you did a great job of pointing out the disadvantages of the 4-2-3-1, and yes, so far it does not suit us. I'm not too fond of the 3-2-3-2 you suggested though Majed b/c I think it'll minimalize the wingplay and leave the team exposed and vunrelable for counter-attacks. We are a team that presses, not the kind that enjoys 65% of the possession. I like the 4-2-3-1 better, but perhaps I'm being a bit too critical b/c I never liked a 3-men backline. One clear problem of the 4-2-3-1 that we won't be able to adjust/fix is, like you said, it does not suit Trezegol. Alex partnering and supporting David is the best form of attack for us (as proved thus far). However, as opposed to slack, I think this is the just formation for Tacchinardi. The Makalele/3rd central defender role is his true identity. To me, it's also just a matter of time that Davids gets used to his new role, in front of Tacchinardi, where he is the first man of attack - the distributer of the ball. So far Davids overdid his twists and turns, and we all know he's just a decent passer of the ball. For me, our main problem while playing this formation lies on the last third of the field. We can't hold possession there, and w/o Del Piero our tactics were all based on running and crossing and sending through balls right after the ball is overturned to us. The possession ends right there, and we still look like a counter-attacking team. With Del Piero and Miccoli on the line-up, however, we will get the spark of "creativity" needed and that all should change. With this formation, we also have to play a more balanced football. Zambrotta can't streak up the field all day long while Thuram plays a very defensive role. More importantly, Davids has a significant role, and he should be played like so.

But perhaps 4-2-3-1 is not for us. What better alternative to fit Miccoli in the squad?
Righto Glen ;)

And C_V, worry not as Lippi is a staunch back 4 believer! The thought of a back 3 without a midfield able to hold its own will be a return to the dark ages under Lotti.

I have to disagree about Tach and to a lesser extent, Davids in the 4-2-3-1. My criticism of Tach is his offensive contribution. In an already numerically disadvantaged area where the battle is most intense, we can ill-afford to task an individual to perform particular duties and nothing else. We need both of them to perform together closely and I'd prefer 2 similar players to 2 different specialists. The proven working model of the 4-2-3-1 exhibits continuity in buildup from the back all the way to the front. Specialization makes for easy identification, disruption and exposes us too much in where to throw the spanner.

Having said that, there could be another variant to the 4-2-3-1 that we might pull off. Up to this point, I have assumed that the 2 DMs are supermen which allows the 3 AMs to be heavily offensive in the conventional model. I'm thinking if we could do a little tradeoff in the attacking 3rd - cut down on the intricacies and revert to direct football (which afterall, is what we currently do best in)? By that, we pull the trio back closer to the DMs, involve them more in 'pressing' and go long-range instead of trying to walk the ball into the net. Indeed, it might even look more like a 4-5-1. This will suit Nedved, our most influential player to date, pretty well. He patrols the inside left and if we could somehow get our hands on similar artillery like Ballack for the inside right, it might well be devastating. That should pull the oppositions' defence out and far enough for ADP and Trez to do their stuff. Wide flank support comes from the fullbacks as per norm. It requires only the insertion of 1 more Scud ... think this might work?

As for fitting Miccoli in, that would mean tinkering with the AMs and would necessitate slightly more changes to the DMs. In any case, he'll need to learn patience just like anyone else in a club like Juve. Next season will be his real test as the rest of Serie A wises up.
 

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