For god's sake, Europeans, don't let skip! Not this time!! (19 Viewers)

[Kaiser Franco]

I really hope they do, Sally. I think the muslim world in general and arab culture in particular have a lot to offer to the world. But I also fear that your religion is being hijacked by a horde of radical wackos and that the misguided young muslims I was alluding to are very easy targets for them.

 

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[sallyinzaghi]

perhaps, but I do have other views regarding these 'radical' muslims ... What they are doing is perhaps not right, but justice isn't done to them either, they have been through a lot of hell from other people and maybe it's just a cry for help.

I really think the first thing we need to do to settle this is simply to unite. at least the muslim nations should. what I hear, even in the arab continent they themselves are not uniting. and until they do, the problems will continue.

so, vote for me as malaysia's next prime minister

 

[Elnur_E65]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
so, vote for me as malaysia's next prime minister

I will vote for you! Furthermore, I will give a nice contribution to your campaign.

Will I get to marry you afterwards?

 

[Kaiser Franco]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
perhaps, but I do have other views regarding these 'radical' muslims ... What they are doing is perhaps not right, but justice isn't done to them either, they have been through a lot of hell from other people and maybe it's just a cry for help.

Sally, this is exactly what scares me : you, like many muslims, seem to somehow mitigate these people's actions. What different views can you possibly have on people that fly planes into buildings and bomb train stations, other than consider them animals? And through what hell has billionaire Bin Laden been for him resort to these actions?

Let me make a simple comparison. We have been severely hit by terrorism in Italy throughout the 70's. There were essentially two sorts of terrorism at the time : the radical right wing sort, which would plant bombs in public places (nearly 100 dead in Bologna's central station in 1980 alone) and the radical left wing sort, which would rather specialise in taking political figures as hostages (they famously killed PM Aldo Moro in '78 after the state had refused to give up to their blackmail).

Now, the only difference these terrorists had with their islamist counterparts is that they fought for an ideology rather than for a cult. But the result is the same, and ALL mainstream parties (the Christian democrats on the right and the socialists and communists on the left) categorically condemned them, refusing to be in any way associated to their cause. Ultimately the left and the right united their forces and defeated this scourge.

So my question is : why don't muslim nations and governments around the world condemn and fight with similar resolve this frightening phenomenon?

 

[Elnur_E65]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++

So my question is : why don't muslim nations and governments around the world condemn and fight with similar resolve this frightening phenomenon?

Because it is gouriella warfare and nations/governments simply can't fight it.

Soviets lost in Afganistan
United States lost in Viet Nam

... no other examples needed

Independent (of dirty politics) governments are condemning it, but there is very little (zero actually) they can do.

Look at the attacks in Saudi Arabia two days ago- this country is simply unable to stop terrorism thread.

International terrorism is a brand new phenomenon, to which international community has no cure for at this point. Except of strengthening of security policies for potential targets, as Europe, East Asia and the U.S.

Now the current "War on Terror", or to be exact: the "War of Terror against the Civilized World" is not religion based, as many (including the terrorists themselves) are attempting to proclaim it, but ideology based, the fact that many fail to realize.

One simply cannot stereotype international terrorism as a purely "muslim" thing. Things in the brains of komikadze suiside bombers flying directly at the World Trace Center very much differ from those running in my head while I am writing this post at the juventuz. forums...

 

[Kaiser Franco]

Pendir, the comparison with Afghanistan and Vietnam is flawed. First off, those wars were waged against clearly-defined nations, not a transnational organisation as diffuse as Al Qaeda. Secondly, both America and the USSR lost because their opponent could rely on the military support of and enemy just as strong and big as them. When it failed to get such support, Afghanistan was invaded by America within a few weeks. The situation can’t get much worse in Iraq at this point, but one could hardly call it a new Viet Nam.

There is a lot more that those governments – and most importantly, their people – can do. I want to hear a young muslim woman like Sally condemn Nick Berg’s beheading or the suicide-bombers as fiercely as I condemn Sharon for razing Palestinian homes in Gaza or the abuses in Abu Grahib. I want to hear her say that she does not condone the anti-semitic remarks that her own Prime Minister has made at a recent summit. Call Bush a Christian fundamentalist with a serious case of dyslexia, but he nevertheless remains a democratically-elected leader who can be sent back to Texas by its voters. How can an unaccountable cleric who preaches Jihad against the West be representative of the muslim people, and what guts does he have for doing this in my country – a Western country?

Islamist terrorism is much more dangerous than any known form of political terrorism (Basque, Czeczen, Northern Irish etc) in that it isn’t just about an entity fighting for its independence, it’s about a movement using religion (or ideology) as a tool to take over the world, and until the muslim people don’t do more than victimizing for the hard times they have been through, until they don’t examine their own conscience as we did, it will keep spreading like a cancer.

Meanwhile, this thread has been derailed from its original subject :groan:.

 

[Elnur_E65]

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
Pendir, the comparison with Afghanistan and Vietnam is flawed. First off, those wars were waged against clearly-defined nations, not a transnational organisation as diffuse as Al Qaeda. Secondly, both America and the USSR lost because their opponent could rely on the military support of and enemy just as strong and big as them. When it failed to get such support, Afghanistan was invaded by America within a few weeks. The situation can’t get much worse in Iraq at this point, but one could hardly call it a new Viet Nam.

Kaiser, Viet Nam and Afganistan cases are not flawed because I have been pointing out to a different idea. Gourilla warfare, as a mean of war, is the most difficult war tactic to deal with.

You cannot win a war against enemy you do not see. International terrorism after 911 is exactly the same thing. You don't have a target. You do not know whom to wage your war against. And consequently, individual governments cannot do much, except for "support" for int-t anti-terrorist campaign.

And by the way, two above mentioned conflicts were not waged against clearly-defined nations as you said. In Viet Nam, as you know, conflict was between North and South with the US supporting the South. In Afganistan: two major groups, both communist, but one close to Moscow than the other. Moscow saw a threat of the spread of American influence and supported Group 1 in its quest to combat Group 2.

++ [ originally posted by Kaiser Franco ] ++
There is a lot more that those governments – and most importantly, their people – can do. I want to hear a young muslim woman like Sally condemn Nick Berg’s beheading or the suicide-bombers as fiercely as I condemn Sharon for razing Palestinian homes in Gaza or the abuses in Abu Grahib. I want to hear her say that she does not condone the anti-semitic remarks that her own Prime Minister has made at a recent summit. Call Bush a Christian fundamentalist with a serious case of dyslexia, but he nevertheless remains a democratically-elected leader who can be sent back to Texas by its voters. How can an unaccountable cleric who preaches Jihad against the West be representative of the muslim people, and what guts does he have for doing this in my country – a Western country?

Islamist terrorism is much more dangerous than any known form of political terrorism (Basque, Czeczen, Northern Irish etc) in that it isn’t just about an entity fighting for its independence, it’s about a movement using religion (or ideology) as a tool to take over the world, and until the muslim people don’t do more than victimizing for the hard times they have been through, until they don’t examine their own conscience as we did, it will keep spreading like a cancer.

My country has sent troops to both Afganistan and Iraq. Our military airports are given to Americans for possible strikes against other targets in the region. What else can my country do?

International terrorism is not just more dangerous than other similar instances. It is a totally different phenomenon, and so far the World has been losing in a war against it.

I doubt that those guys want to take over the world though...

 

[sallyinzaghi]

Like I said before Kaiser, I don't think what they're doing is right, and I don't know much about history considering I've been exposed to very little and I lack knowledge.

But my opinion goes like this : e.g. the current war on Iraq... I am against it and I think it's total bull, I pity the Iraqis and what these people have done is unbelievable. People are bombed and killed, their country IMO has been 'raided' or 'stolen' by foreign troops, and our Islamic civilization there is destroyed, god knows whatever is left of it in Iraq... then there was the kidnapping of the Japanese people, and more radical acts like beheading someone etc. I'm not saying these acts are right, not at all, but it does seem like a desperate cry of help.. the americans or whoever it is has taken everything from them by having this war and I believe it is the only thing they could do for the troops to retrieve from Iraq.

and you would probably talk to Majed about this; he's better at these things

I'm not sure if anyone can comprehend what I'm trying to say, but what can be called as the conclusion is, though these radical acts are incorrect and should be prohibited, there's more to it ... injustice, and cruelty has been done to their share of the story too and maybe it's just a desperate cry of help for all of these to stop... Muslims have been treated unfairly time and time again and yet nothing is being done

And to tell you the truth, I don't think there's a complete solution to this. But I think the first step is for all muslim nations to unite (not EU-like unite, but you get what I mean) to help those in need. and also it would help if those westerners could stop all these attacks against us.

 

[Dj Juve]

hey erik, how can i vote?


woot

 

[Slagathor]

Thank god they don't allow you

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
I pity the Iraqis and what these people have done is unbelievable.

May I assume you were never exposed to the images of tortured people (especially Kurds but also Iraqis) during the reign of Saddam Hussein? Gassed, burned alive, cut to pieces, burried alive, tortured in gruesome ways. And to men, women and children alike. That's what was going on in Iraq before this war. And yet you think the current situation is bad?

Muslims have been treated unfairly time and time again and yet nothing is being done

Oh and of course non-muslims have never suffered?

and also it would help if those westerners could stop all these attacks against us.

That frightens me. You seriously divide man-kind into muslims and non-muslims? Us against them? What's wrong with you! How can you be so black&white?? I don't understand that...

 

[sallyinzaghi]

++ [ originally posted by Erik ] ++
Thank god they don't allow you



May I assume you were never exposed to the images of tortured people (especially Kurds but also Iraqis) during the reign of Saddam Hussein? Gassed, burned alive, cut to pieces, burried alive, tortured in gruesome ways. And to men, women and children alike. That's what was going on in Iraq before this war. And yet you think the current situation is bad?

So if it was worse during Saddam's time the US can just declare war against Iraq? "Oh gee Saddam did worse, it's ok, let's declare war against them. I mean they'd still die but it won't be any worse or anything" ... I never said the government before Iraq was any good or anything but IMO whatever the hell it is they're doing is still wrong anyway, regardless how Saddam's reign was, it is this current moment that matters

Oh and of course non-muslims have never suffered?

Yes they have and we should all stop any kind of war altogether, muslims or not but we were more focused on Muslim nations weren't we? (Well initially the thread was about Europe, but we know how that turned out )

That frightens me. You seriously divide man-kind into muslims and non-muslims? Us against them? What's wrong with you! How can you be so black&white?? I don't understand that...

Of course not, you saying that frightens me too :dazed: I don't think it's westerners vs muslims or anything like that, I was just focusing on the muslim nations. And there HAVE been propaganda against us, but I'm not saying it's black and white as you put it, the world isn't separated to muslims or non muslims

Anyway, I hope no one takes this the wrong way

 

[Slagathor]

++ [ originally posted by sallyinzaghi ] ++
So if it was worse during Saddam's time the US can just declare war against Iraq? "Oh gee Saddam did worse, it's ok, let's declare war against them. I mean they'd still die but it won't be any worse or anything" ... I never said the government before Iraq was any good or anything but IMO whatever the hell it is they're doing is still wrong anyway, regardless how Saddam's reign was, it is this current moment that matters

Just to set this straight: I was and am against this war too. But surely you have to admit the current situation isn't worse than what was before. Though of course I personally will celebrate the day the UN takes over and, after that, Iraq becomes independent again.

But Saddam Hussein and his regime were a plague to the Iraqis. That's a fact.

Yes they have and we should all stop any kind of war altogether, muslims or not but we were more focused on Muslim nations weren't we? (Well initially the thread was about Europe, but we know how that turned out )

Very well, I misunderstood. And yes, we do have a habit of going off-topic in these forums

Of course not, you saying that frightens me too :dazed: I don't think it's westerners vs muslims or anything like that, I was just focusing on the muslim nations. And there HAVE been propaganda against us, but I'm not saying it's black and white as you put it, the world isn't separated to muslims or non muslims

Anyway, I hope no one takes this the wrong way

OK, just got a bit scared there. Cause I hear that a lot from Arab immigrants in this country.

 

[Tom]

I've sent me votes off, did it yesterday!

 

[Elnur_E65]

Guys... guys... the thing in Iraq has one fundamental factor to it- petroleum.

Daily demand for oil worldwide is 67 million barrels per day. Iraq (which has second largest reserves in the world) at the peak of its production will export at least 15 - 17 million barrels. Now that the Gov-t is friendly, PSA (product-sharing agreements) will be signed with Iraq and this oil will get to world markets. For comparison, during Saddam only 1 million barrel per day was allowed to export in the framework of "oil for food" program.

Consequently, oil prices will NOT drop as many think because of increasing demand in China, India and the FSU. But the world economy will keep moving forward, hopefully at a rate it is moving now.

This is the reason the US went into Iraq and this is why it might go into Iran in the next five years.

This compaign has not been an assult against the Muslims nor any other religion or nationality. As Eric mentioned, what's done now in Iraq is land and sky to what's been happening under Saddam. And don't forget, it's not the American soldiers killing people, it's the terrorists and suicide bombers linked to int-l terrorism groups involved in this.

We have got to look into the future, oil is the thing making the world go round.

 

[sallyinzaghi]

Btw Erik, reading the newspapers here - poll shows that most Europeans don't give a fok bout this voting thing. Whaddaya think?

 

[Kaiser Franco]

Pendir,

Guerilla warfare puts to the test the patience of an occupier’s military, through punctual, undeclared and indiscriminate attacks. Its only ally is time. Hence, it cannot be called a War, since that would imply that two national armies are actually confronting each other at a pre-established time and place for the conquest of a disputed territory. Bluntly, guerrillas - even in the form of very well-organized militias - don’t have the material means to defeat an army and do not claim as many victims . Nor do they - as all proper armies should - have any legitimate authority granted to an organ of power by the people or at least the existing institutions of the country.

Regarding Vietnam, you said it yourself : it was North Vietnam and South Vietnam that were at war - i.e. two defined national entities which, what’s more, could rely on the direct support of the two antagonising superpowers of the time. We see nothing of the sort in Iraq. This isn’t a civil war : the Sunni, Shia and Kurd entities, aren’t fighting each other as was initially feared and, if only, they share the same growing hostility (or at least the Sunni and Shia do) towards the occupier’s military presence. So if America were to leave Iraq, it wouldn’t be because it has been defeated by a legitimate enemy, but because its public opinion cannot stand the growing death toll among its troops, which is still limited compared with Vietnam (600 or so versus 50 000).

The control of oil reserves is a factor, but most importantly is the currency in which the oil is sold. Mainstream media barely mentioned the fact that Iraq had changed its petro-dollars into petro-euros a few months before the invasion (just as Vietnam had switched to the Sterling btw). Evidently, even under the infamous “oil-for-palaces” programme as I call it, this was a risk that America could not afford to live with, as other OPEC countries might have been tempted to followed suit.


Sally,

Bush and his clique went to Iraq for their own reasons, the least of which was to liberate the Iraqi people. I do hope the muslim nations and people could stand up for themselves and unite, but I hope it is under another banner than anti-Western and anti-jewish sentiment, because that seems to be the only point on which they all agree at the moment.

Regarding the participation level in the EP elections, it varies a lot from one member state to another, but generally it’s about the same as in a US presidential election, which is not bad considering their more relative relevance.